Improving the Scandinavian experience by having Danish dynamic names - a suggestion

[Wagonlitz]

So @Trin Tragula suggested I made a thread suggesting dynamic province names. As far as I can see there are no Danish province names in game already.
Since this obviously is a huge task I will do it in several small bites; other people chiming in would be appreciated too. Given that the sources also give names in other language I will suggest those too.
The sources I will be using are the Atlas of Frederik V of Denmark. It is a huge world atlas with 3535 charts distributed over 55 volumes. Most of those charts are maps. Those are in many languages meaning that you can see the names used in those languages at the time the maps were made. Frederik V died 14.1.1766 and most maps are from the first half of the 1700s, but there are older ones too---some even much older. I will be naming that source FV.
http://images.kb.dk/fr5atlas/

The other source is Geographie til Ungdommens Brug, 5th edition, Christian Sommerfelt, Copenhagen, 1797. As seen it is by semi famous Christian Sommerfelt who was a really skilled geographer and many other things. Among other people the famous Carsten Niebuhr also helped Sommerfelt in getting the names of places. I will call that source CS.

Another source is Matthias Moth. Matthias Moth was one of the closest advisors to Christian V and he was also highly interested in knowledge. Around 1700 he made a giant dictionary covering the entirety of Danish as it was back then. No word was too obscene or obscure. It also includes Icelandic, Faroese, and Norwegian words.
He also had an encyclopedia be part of the dictionary (because why not). It's something like 60 tomes in total. His work has been digitised by the Danish Language and Literature Association here: http://mothsordbog.dk/



@Trin Tragula do you need province numbers too, or is mentioning their name enough?

Back in the day dashes weren't used in Danish and places where you would have a dash would have an = instead. I have kept using that, since it firstly is what CS uses and it is the authentic thing to do.

For CS some names have a previous name noted in parenthesis. I will note those too. A few times two names are mentioned; I will separate those by commas.
Here we go:
1775 Holstein -> Holsteen. CS
2348 Chios -> Scio (Chius). CS
382 Damascus -> Damâsk (Damascus). CS
378 Tarabulus -> Trábulos (Tripolis i Syrien). CS
1855 Sidon -> Seide (Sidon). CS
405 Tadmor -> Palmyra. CS
377 Aleppo -> Háleb, Aleppo, (Chalybon). CS
2313 Antioch -> Antâki (Antiochia). CS
331 Erzurum -> Ærzerûm (Arze). CS
418 Diyarbakir -> Diarbekr (Amid). CS
409 Hillah -> Helle. CS
410 Baghdad -> Bagdád. CS
408 Basra -> Básra. CS
385 Mecca -> Mékke. CS
384 Medina -> Medîne. CS
2329 Yanbu -> Jâmbo. CS
2331 Jeddah -> Dsjidda. CS
390 Sana'a -> Saná. CS
388 Aden -> Aden (Arabia emporium). CS
400 Muscat -> Maskát (Moscha). CS
1201 Zanzibar -> Zansjibar. CS
1205 Mogadishu -> Mokadischu. CS
2258 Cape Coast -> Cap Coast. CS
1177 Cape -> Got=Haabs=Forbierg. CS. Its capital should be Cap=Staden in case province capitals are dynamic too.

There is the question of the Danish colonies in India and Africa.
In India we had Trankebar and Frediriksnagôr. As far as I can see Trankebar lies within what is the Tanjore province in game. Hence Tanjore should be called Trankebar when Danish.
Frederiksnagôr is what is called Serampore these days. I think it lies in the province of Bengal Delta meaning that Bengal Delta should be called Frederiksnagôr when Danish.

2026 Tanjore -> Trankebar. CS
561 Bengal Delta -> Frederiksnagôr. CS

There also are the colonies in Africa. These all were placed on the Gold Coast and were Christiansborg, Fredensborg, Kongsteen, Prindsensteen, and Augustaborg. As far as I can see Prindsensteen is just inside Whydah. Of the others they all lie within Gold Coast. Christiansborg was the biggest and oldest, so it must give the name. So:

1139 Gold Coast -> Christiansborg. CS
1141 Whydah -> Prindsensteen. CS

If deemed desirable other West African coastal provinces (provinces without any Danish name) could be named after the other forts. While not historical it would give flavour---and those three unused fort names were used for West African possessions IRL so who knows if they would also have been used if the fort with that name was placed somewhere else on the West African coast.

That's it for now.


Addition on the 21st of Marts.

So I did another stint in finding dynamic names. Like before I only looked in CS this time.

Lets look at the British Isles. I haven't spent much time on Scotland, since I am not sure exactly how provinces change there with Mare Nostrum.

369 Orkey -> Ørkenøerne, Orkneys (Orcades). CS

As far as I have been able to see the only change to England is the addition of Devon.

236 London -> Middlsex. CS
233 Cornwall -> Kaarnwæll. CS
Devon -> Dewon=Shiire. CS (Ended up not getting in; should it ever be added then here is the Danish name for it.)
243 Lincolnshire -> Lincoln=Shiire. CS
237 Oxfordshire -> Oxford=Shiire. CS
239 Gloucestershire -> Gloster=Shiire. CS
1861 Derbyshire -> Derbe=Shiire. CS
247 Yorkshire -> York=Shiire. CS
249 Cumbria -> Cumberland. CS
244 Lancashire -> Pfalzgrevskabet Lænkæster, Lancashire. CS
242 Gwynedd -> Nord=Wæles. CS
241 Glamorganshire -> Syd=Wæles. CS
243 Wessex -> Westsex. CS

Then there is the question of the province of Marches (province 240). For obvious reasons that isn't directly referred to in CS. The direct translation would be Markerne. That could be used if the concept of the Welsch Marches is to be preserved. Otherwise it consists of 5 shires as far as I can see. Staffordshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire. If the name is chosen to follow one of those shires, then here is the names given in CS.

Herefordshire -> Hereford=Shiire. CS
Shropshire -> Shrop=Shiire. CS
Staffordshire -> Stafford=Shiire. CS
Worcestershire -> Vorster=Shiire. CS
Warwickshire -> Warrik=Shiire. CS

Of those 5 shires Herefordshire is deemed so unimportant by CS that it doesn't get a detailed description, but just is mentioned in the tally of the shires of England.
If Markerne isn't used, I don't know which shire the name should be based on.




@Trin Tragula could would it be possible for you to give me a screenshot of Lithuania with province names visible? Otherwise I will have to wait until Mare Nostrum releases to do anything about Lithuania. Anyway there are a few things in the Baltics I am confident about not having changed.

35 Ösel -> Øsel. CS
37 Livland -> Lifland. CS
36 Reval -> Revalske Statholderskab. CS (This one is a bit icy. On one side Narva was part of Revalske Statholderskab; on the other side CS makes a point about Narva being unimportant compared to what is Reval in game. And just calling it Reval seems wrong too when there is an actual name for the province and the province did contain much more than just the city of Reval. So I think it can be defended to have the in game province of Reval called Revalske Statholderskab despite not including Narva.)



Now lets look a bit on Western Prussia:

255 Kalisz -> Gnesen, Gniesna. CS
43 Danzig -> Danzig. CS (just pointing out that it is Danzig and not Gdansk.)
2963 Notec -> Netzeland, Netz=Districtet. CS
254 Poznan -> Posen. CS
256 Plock -> Plozk. CS
1859 Chelmno -> Culm. CS
1939 Leczyca -> Lentschiza. CS
262 Krakow -> Krakov (Cracovia, Carodunum). CS
257 Warszawa -> Warschava, Varschau, (Varsaria). CS

I'm going to stop here for now.


Additions from the 12th of April.

So I got a little time this morning.

@Trin Tragula do I need to ping you every time I update or have you subscribed to the thread and if so do you then actively read it?



Well firstly there is a correction to the English names. When writing them Mare Nostrum hadn't yet released and I thought that the new province around Cornwall was Devon. Turned out to be Somerset.

I will leave the name for Devon in in case it ever is added.

4130 Somerset -> Sommerset. CS


On to the North then.

1979 Färöarna -> Færøerne. CS
17 Akershus -> Aggershuus, Christiania. CS
24 Agder -> Christiansand. CS
315 Finnmark -> Finmarken. CS
1 Stockholm -> Stokholm. CS
1985 Närke -> Nerike. CS
2 Östergötland -> Øster=Gøtland. CS
7 Västergötland -> Vester=Gøtland. CS
5 Värmland -> Værmeland. CS
6 Skåne -> Skaane. CS
1982 Blekinge -> Bleking. CS
3 Småland -> Smaaland. CS
16 Bohuslän -> Bahuslehn, Bohuslæn. CS (Does anybody know if this is a mutilation of the pre 1658 name?)


20 Trøndelag -> Trondheim. CS (I am a bit ambivalent on this, since while it was Trondheim in CS I am pretty sure it has been called Trøndelag in Danish at least until the loss of Skåneland. Do any of you have an idea here @Quaade @radiatoren?)

Don't have time for more now.



So the section on the old North mentions Trandheim and Trondelagen as the two equivalent names for Trøndelag back in the old North. As far as I remember lagen means law in Old Norse---i.e. Trondelagen being under the law of Tronde (whoever that is) (unless I am completely mistaken). An equivalent would be Danelagen.

Anyway it appears that Trondelagen was an archaic name in 1797 and Trondheim the then current one. Though when that changed I don't know.

I think having it as Trøndelag (or Trondelagen which appears more appropriate) when under Norway and Trondheim when under Denmark could make sense to show the change in naming convention. Though I don't know. It sure is a hard province name to decide on. Though if Trøndelag is used in Danish then I think it should be Trondelagen given that is how CS writes it. Though it is a good question if there actually was a vowel change in the name or CS wanted to write it in the old style with a miniscule e over the o instead of using an ø and the e then wasn't printed (he used the miniscule e version for some of the Swedish names for some bizarre reason). But given he has been dead in something like 200 years we obviously can't ask, so if he is used it should probably be Trondelagen with an o, since that was what he wrote.


Anyway lets continue with Scandinavia.

21 Hålogaland -> Nordlandene. CS (If somebody else is looking in CS too then this mentioned in the section about the Old North. By the way this should definitely be changed for Norwegian too. Whether it should be Nordlandene or Haalogaland (or possibly even Halogaland as in Old Norse) I don't know, but given å (the letter, not the sound) didn't exist in Norwegian until 1917, the letter å has no place in Norwegian names in game. The same goes for Danish names where å didn't exist as a letter until 1948.)
10 Jämtland -> Jæmtland. CS (Jämtland seems sketchy for the Norwegian name given Norway uses æ and not ä. @Sleepyhead wasn't there something about Jämtland being called something else in Norwegian?)
9 Hälsingland -> Hælsingeland. CS
11 Västerbotten-> Vesterboten. CS
27 Åbo -> Aabo= og Biørneborg=Lehn, Finland. CS
19 Österbotten -> Østerbotn, Uleaaborg Landshøvdingedømme. CS
31 Savolax -> Savolax, Kuopio. CS (With Kuopio only becoming noteworthy in the really late game, as CS also notes by saying it is a new town, I think keeping it as Savolax is the best of the two possibilities.)
1930 Åland -> Aaland. CS
4124 Karelia -> Karelen. CS

4123 Pirkanmaa. Now this one is a bit of a problem, since the area was part of Åbo and not in any way noteworthy given CS doesn't mention a thing about that part of the county. (Now I wonder how such an unimportant piece of land warranted a province...

)
Anyway due to it not being an independent administrative unit and being unimportant CS doesn't give any name. The Finnish name obviously is ruled out as a plausible name, since there is no way a Denmark having taken Finland would use Finnish names. The Swedish name is Birkaland which as far as I can see refers back to the Scandinavian word birk (to the Danes: it is the administrative unit, not the tree, we talk about here) which was a really old administrative unit independent of the shires. If I am correct that the etymology of Birkaland is land of the birks then the Danish name obviously would be Birkeland.
So lacking any sources on this except common knowledge about ancient administrative units I would propose Birkeland. And if that isn't used then using the Swedish Birkaland. While not correct it is much less wrong than using a Finnish name.

With regard to Lappland, Jokkmokk and especially Rovaniemi then I don't know. Lappland was divided into 6 chiefdoms when CS wrote (Åsele, Uleå, Piteå, Luleå, Torneå, and Kiemi); I think Kiemi is Kemi, but not certain. Using the names of these Lapp divisions (Aasele=Lapmark, Uleaa=Lapmark, Piteaa=Lapmark, Luleaa=Lapmark, Torneaa=Lapmark, Kiemi=Lapmark) for the three Lappland provinces (Lappland, Jokkmokk, Rovaniemi) would make sense, but I don't know which should be given what name.
Does anybody know this?
Rovaniemi might very well be Kiemi=Lapmark though, since CS mentions this Lapp division to be administered together with Österbotten. But I don't know.

Speaking of the Lapps then CS is a goldmine of statements which are funny due to being horribly un PC these days. This is written under Lappland: "Indbyggerne bekiende sig til den Christelige Religion, ere og forsynede med Kirker og Præster, men ere dog ikke frie for Levninger af grov Overtroe."

45 Lübeck -> Lybek, Lübeck. CS
44 Hamburg -> Hamborg. CS writes Hamburg, but that most likely is him using the German name due to the strong presence German had i the 1700s. As can be seen from this excert from the list of consumption for Tycho Brahe's wedding in 1503 it was called Hamborg 500 years ago just as it is today. The source is a site on Danish history run by Aarhus University.
"Item, 2. Tønner Hamborg Øll, Tønnen VI. Marck. "

296 Kaluga -> Kolugiske Statholderskab. CS
295 Moskva -> Moscau, Moskva. CS
294 Tver -> Tveerske Statholderskab. CS
308 Yaroslavl -> Jaroslavlske Statholderskab. CS
310 Novgorod -> Novgorodiske Statholderskab. CS
314 Vologda -> Vologda Statholderskab. CS
306 Nizhny Novgorod -> Nischgorodske Statholderskab, Nischnei=Novgorodske Statholderskab. CS





Additions on November 10th 2016:

4149 Kolding -> Koldinghus.
4141 Ditmarschen -> Ditmersken; alternatively Dytmersken.

Arguments found in this post.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Though then I have no idea for Jokkmokk or Rovaniemi.

Those are local names that was adopted wholesale into Swedish so perhaps a Danish overlord might do the same?

 

[perhje]

Nidaros isn't Latin. Or the os part at least isn't. That is an old Norse word meaning mouth of. Aros uses it too, where as far as I remember the ar is what evolved into the Danish å (is it also å in Norwegian?) I.e. a small stream. So Aros means mouth of the stream---Aros is the original name of Århus.
I seem to remember that Nidar is Norse too, but not sure on that.

I meant the word Trondhjem/hjæm. Nidaros is as you say derived from the word os and the name of the river Nid/Nidar(today Nidelva).

Provinces aren't always named for their biggest city though. Perhaps I should check what is used in the treaty of Roskilde.

Yes that is my point for Trøndelag. For a province like Lubeck it is logical to call it Lubeck, but for Trøndelag which is atleast 20 times as big it isn't that describing by calling it Trondhjem/hjæm/heim.

Off topic but it is somewhat weird that an army coming from Hålogaland and one from Eidsiva would always meet to battle in the mountains while an to armies in the farmlands of northern Germany could avoid each other forever.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Those are local names that was adopted wholesale into Swedish so perhaps a Danish overlord might do the same?

That is possible I guess. Though given how we in Greenland were consequently coming up with our own names and completely disregarding the Inuit names I am not too sure on it. On the other hand the Lapps were Christian already.
Can't remember if Trankebar was completely made up or a mutilation of a local name.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Can't remember if Trankebar was completely made up or a mutilation of a local name.

Knowing other colonial ventures in that part of the world I'd guess it's a mutilation of a name invented by another European power
It's not that far from Tharangambadi though. And it's a lot more local sounding than the (very shortlived) Swedish attempted fort nearby (Porto Novo).

 

[Wagonlitz]

Yes that is my point for Trøndelag. For a province like Lubeck it is logical to call it Lubeck, but for Trøndelag which is atleast 20 times as big it isn't that describing by calling it Trondhjem/hjæm/heim.

It was called Trondhjems Amt from the mid 1600s though. But I fully get your point on the city of Trondhjem not being the entirety of Trøndelag.

Off topic but it is somewhat weird that an army coming from Hålogaland and one from Eidsiva would always meet to battle in the mountains while an to armies in the farmlands of northern Germany could avoid each other forever.

IRL or in game?

 

[perhje]

IRL or in game?

In game, IRL it would be more the opposite.

 

[Wagonlitz]

In game, IRL it would be more the opposite.

Then I don't get you. You can't just run away for an eternity in Northern Germany. And you can avoid the mountains with a detour---though with the new (and in my opinion stupid) terrain system you can't avoid mountains if there is a battle in the province.

 

[perhje]

Then I don't get you. You can't just run away for an eternity in Northern Germany. And you can avoid the mountains with a detour---though with the new (and in my opinion stupid) terrain system you can't avoid mountains if there is a battle in the province.

Now I don't understand what you mean. If there is an enemy army going towards Trøndelag from the north and you are coming from the south there will be a battle at once both are in, but if there is one in Lubeck and one in Hamburg, which is much closer to each other you'll have to chase the other army to have a chance to battle it and if there is a high difference in maneuver of the leaders the armies could possible never met by just running in Holstein, Lubeck, Lauenburg(may be woods) and Hamburg, which is a flat and open area that is much smaller area than Trøndelag, but still the two armies in Trøndelag will always battle while the armies in the four northern provinces could avoid each other. This is weird because Trøndelag is, save the flatlands around the fiords of Trondheim(Trondheimsfjorden) only fiords, mountains and valleys which is ideal for avoiding other armies, espesially with the big size of the province in addition.

 

[Sleepyhead]

Interesting.
The Runeberg one is from the 1880s though so outside the time frame.

Of the others then the 4th doesn't mention Jemtland.

The 2 first from 1420 and 1471 calls it Jempteland, the 2 next from 1488 and 1531 calls it Jemteland, and the last one from 1558 calls it Jemtheland. The 1488 one also calls it Jemtalandh, but given spelling wasn't standardised back then that is no surprise. So it appears there is some evolution in the name with it shedding the p as that doesn't appear just to be spelling differences.
The second e is shed later too apparently.

So now the question is whether to go with Jæmtland as it was called in the late 1700s according to CS (5th edition is from 1797 as mentioned; 1st edition was from something like 1776).
Or if we should go with one of the previous versions. With that I would say that Jemteland seems better than Jempteland, since the p appears to have disappeared in the late 1400s. Though such a small sample we can't be sure. I wouldn't use Jemtalandh or Jemtheland, but they are possibilities sure.
What do you say @Quaade and @radiatoren?
Or you Sleepy?

The original name was Jamptaland (technically Icelandic and Nynorsk retain the a like the dialect) and in East Norse the development went to Jempteland, Jemteland (with or without a silent h in spellings) and finally Jemtland. The latter would thus be the name at the end of the timeframe while Jemteland would be more during. I strongly advise against the use of æ. It mostly seems to be a Danish way of writing the modern Swedish spelling. In official bokmål (which is merely Danish) it's definitely spelled with an e. I dunno what this CS thing is, but from what I've seen it should definitely not be taken as a standard here. Authors could be creative in their spelling during this time and this guys seems to have gone slightly overboard with his.

The same should be the case for a Danish spelling of Värmland (historically written Wermland) during the timeframe.

Bohuslän would be best of written Bohus.

In my opinion it should be Trøndelag rather than anything else.

 

[Quaade]

Why do you find Nidaros odd? It is a perfectly normal name. I actually looked up the name now. Wiki confirmes that I was right that the os is the old Norse os; and the Nid comes from the Nid river. Now the ar I don't know (and wiki doesn't mention anything), but I would wager that it means å just like the Ar in Aros.

It just always seemed out of place, like greece or latin It´s not rational and I accept that it´s due to old norse (figured it would have some meaning).

Are you sure that liking Jæmtland isn't due to Swedish influence? Though if with an e I naturally make it an æ sounding e. So in doubt on æ or e. But I agree that Jemteland looks better.

Might be... But personally I prefer Jemteland, though the argument is solely on how it will look in the game (not rational here, I know) But to me it´s need to be a factor aswell...

Those are local names that was adopted wholesale into Swedish so perhaps a Danish overlord might do the same?

A danish overlord not caring about the original inhabitants... Who saw that coming

That is possible I guess. Though given how we in Greenland were consequently coming up with our own names and completely disregarding the Inuit names I am not too sure on it. On the other hand the Lapps were Christian already.
Can't remember if Trankebar was completely made up or a mutilation of a local name.

Trankebar as far as I remember is more a loose translation, i.e. how it sounded for danes and then spelled out like it was heard... But could be wrong here...

However there is a difference between Scandinavia and Greenland, since the history of Norway, Sweden and Finland has been mudded together so it makes more sense to use local names in Scandinavia, but in Greenland where we colonized and "only" natives who lived there, being the overlord of natives would mostly mean using our own names... Wasn´t it in this period that they practically tried to eradicate the natives by either moving them or "educating" them as danes?

 

[CoolSpin]

There is a Norwegian saying, which I'm sure Danes have to: Mange bekker små gjør en stor å.


This thread is fantastic!

 

[CoolSpin]

I meant the word Trondhjem/hjæm. Nidaros is as you say derived from the word os and the name of the river Nid/Nidar(today Nidelva).

Yes that is my point for Trøndelag. For a province like Lubeck it is logical to call it Lubeck, but for Trøndelag which is atleast 20 times as big it isn't that describing by calling it Trondhjem/hjæm/heim.

Off topic but it is somewhat weird that an army coming from Hålogaland and one from Eidsiva would always meet to battle in the mountains while an to armies in the farmlands of northern Germany could avoid each other forever.

Wasn't there a time in EU4 where what terrain you moved to had a chance of being type A, B or C, in percentages?

 

[Quaade]

There is a Norwegian saying, which I'm sure Danes have to: Mange bekker små gjør en stor å.
This thread is fantastic!

We have a very similar one ;-) Please bear into some of the Norwegian names if you have any preference or knowledge... It´s easy for us to sit and decide for Norwegians

Wasn't there a time in EU4 where what terrain you moved to had a chance of being type A, B or C, in percentages?

There was a time, not too long ago... Was before they implemented the mapmode for terrains... But it had some "enemies" in the community since they disliked or hoped for the narrow chance of either mountain or plains (depending on defender or attacker). The more moderate argued that it was too random and you had little control of the outcome, and since mountains as an attacker could be devastating, especially against France, or that you don´t trigger mountains when you defended against same...

 

[CoolSpin]

Hehe, me, I am biased to give Norway more provinces in the game, the times I've played Norway I wasn't having any fun. Even if it might not fit the timeline.

Ever debate I've had on twitch just ends with that Norway was piss poor and don't deserve any buffs. Obviously I can see that side, but reducing Norway to that doesn't fly with me. Its the "that mountainous that has harsh winters, I just need to core it and up autonomy then I'm good."-area I feel. Anyway I was taking a break from my current war due to a phone call.

 

[Quaade]

Hehe, me, I am biased to give Norway more provinces in the game, the times I've played Norway I wasn't having any fun. Even if it might not fit the timeline.

Ever debate I've had on twitch just ends with that Norway was piss poor and don't deserve any buffs. Obviously I can see that side, but reducing Norway to that doesn't fly with me. Its the "that mountainous that has harsh winters, I just need to core it and up autonomy then I'm good."-area I feel. Anyway I was taking a break from my current war due to a phone call.

I do believe Norway could use a small buff, and I don´t believe it was as piss-poor as people suggests... After all, both Sweden and Denmark fought over the right to their crown, so it must have had some significance ;-)

I actually look forward to my norwegian campaign at some point

 

[Caban]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=464828647

 

[Wagonlitz]

I am no=where near that kind of level.

Is the use of = as a hyphen convention in Scotland? (Was it previously convention all over Britain?)
If so then I think that speaks for having the names in the game in their glorious = form!

 

[Wagonlitz]

So we are on it again @Trin Tragula
I have just had a look at 1.19 and there's a couple things which stands out naming wise. One of them I already mentioned so you might know what I'm about to argue about.

Firstly there's the province of Kolding. That should be Koldinghus. Reason being that historically the fief (län) was called Koldinghus and when the län were abolished and counties made to replace them in 1662 Koldinghus kept being the name of the county centered on the city of Kolding. Koldinghus county existed all the way until the big county reform of 1793. There has never been a län or county names Kolding. Whenever a län or county had Kolding as the main city it was named Koldinghus.
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koldinghus_Amt
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koldinghus_Len

Furthermore Danish län and counties always were names after fortresses (or estates; Aarhusgaard is an example of naming after an estate). Examples of län and counties named after the fortress and not the city includes: Riberhus, Aalborghus, Skivehus, Bergenhus (I know that's in Norway, but it's the same naming convention (had it pre Danish rule) and it had that name during Danish rule)
As seen here names like Riberhus, Aalborghus, and Skivehus were also used for län; among with others like e.g. Stegehus and Hammershus.


So hopefully we can get Koldinghus in game when owned by a Danish cultured tag (preferably as the base name, but if that's impossible then this would be really nice, because having it named Kolding really stands out as an eyesore to those of us who knows how wrong and unhistorical it is.)

Also given that I brought it up in one of the dev diaries where IIRC you replied to it has it then been decided not to be used? And if so could I then get the argument, since that'd seen really strange. Or was it just forgotten?







The other name I'll bring up this time is Dithmarschen. That's the German name and hence I'd like it to use the Danish name when owned by Denmark.
Now what the Danish name is has varied from time to time, so we'll have to choose. Lets first list the documented variants I've been able to find. (Though I didn't use too much time on it so there might be variants I didn't find.)

I've been looking on http://danmarkshistorien.dk/ which is a site published by Aarhus University where they both have articles about various things in Danish history, but more importantly they have digitised and transcribed sources. Meaning that we can get the period accurate variants. Sadly for some of the oldest sources they've published them in modern Danish which gives problems for things like this, but lucky some of them have the original text too.
I tried finding sources where a king had put down his name, since then Dithmarschen would come up as part of his titles.

The variants I've found are:
Ditmersken
Dytmersken
Ditmarsken

Ditmersken is mentioned in a fæstebrev from 1494 (not sure what fæstebrev is called in English), in the 1699 founding document of the Roskilde noble virgin monestary, and in Moth.
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksikon-og-kilder/vis/materiale/faestebrev-1494/
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksiko...skilde-adelige-jomfrukloster-1699/?no_cache=1
http://mothsordbog.dk/ordbog?query=ditmersken

Matthias Moth was one of the closest advisors to Christian V and he was also highly interested in knowledge. Around 1700 he made a giant dictionary covering the entirety of Danish as it was back then. No word was too obscene or obscure. It also includes Icelandic, Faroese, and Norwegian words.
He also had an encyclopedia be part of the dictionary (because why not). It's something like 60 tomes in total.



Dytmersken is used in Denmark and Norways church ritual of 1685 which to a large extent twas made by Thomas Kingo. Though we can't know if Kingo himself used Dytmersken or it was somebody else using it.
It is also used in the fire insurance law of 1761. And in the ruling of citizenship of bureaucrats from 1776.
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksiko...anmark-og-norges-kirkeritual-1685/?no_cache=1
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksiko...brand-forsikkrings-anordning-1761/?no_cache=1
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksiko...m-indfoedsret-for-embedsmaend-15-januar-1776/

Ditmarsken is the current Danish spelling. It's also what CS uses. Furthermore it's used in the Jewish Freedom Letter of 1814 which on most areas gave Jews the same rights as Danes.
http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksiko...le/det-joediske-frihedsbrev-af-29-marts-1814/



Now to discuss the variants. Ditmarsken should be out, since it clearly isn't really fitting for this period except for the very last years.
That it was used in the 1400s and that Moth used it speaks for using Ditmersken. Dytmersken appears to be a later evolution albeit Kingo may or may not have used it. Now I don't know whether Dytmersken was used in the early part of the game, but from what I found it appears to be the later variant.
I'd hence propose using Ditmersken; and if that's bad then Dytmersken. Ditmarsken should not be used due to clearly being a variation coming about in the very late part of the game period.

So hopefully we can have it named Ditmersken.



So to sum up:
4149 Kolding -> Koldinghus.
4141 Ditmarschen -> Ditmersken; alternatively Dytmersken.