Japan's disastrous campaign in China

[Eh up me duck]

You're going to a lot of effort here to demonstrate that you're bad at the game. If you spent as much time learning how to play HOI 4 instead of compiling these posts I don't think you'd be stuck by now.

Taking down China as Japan is not hard. At best it's laborious, if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[Harin]

The OP may be learning that the game has at least two phases. The first is "get ready to fight", while the second is the fight itself. In my opinion, HOI4 is not a game where you start grand campaigns with what you have on hand. Many things need to be made better during the first phase to make the second phase successful.

 

[MP.001]

20. As usual, there are always the supposed professors: you don't update the template? ah, you don't win because you use bad templates and bla bla bla; you update the template? ah, but you don't have this equipment or that and bla bla bla... yes, that's my point, thanks; not updating the template because Jap industrial power is pathetic, as shown, but still there were some troll telling "because you use bad templates and bla bla bla"; but here we are, just for your delight, the still pathetic situation before the template update; in a following post I will describe what pathetic changes I have done that have caused the mess we have seen before;

21 If you are interested in the political situation ("you don't use the correct sets and bla bla bla"):

22. and the pathetic construction queue:

23. To relief the fron near Nanjing I have unleashed... another pathetic attack (really, I don't trust at all the one telling you can send your divisions conquering China... your statistics are pathetics and China has too many divisions with too much strength):

24: Incredible news! the first real victory in a land combat! I had to attack troops already exhausted from three direction and using 2... sort of... tank divisions, but at the end after months... the first real victory in combat!

25. and here the updated logistical situation: a mess; few support companies here and there, a bit more tanks for that sort of tank divisions... and the logistic explodes:

26: so, what next? a second general attack from China to take back Nanjing:

27: China attack that has gone near to break my poor defence:

28: and finally, after had to send other divisions to reinforce the flaky defense.. and after only 9 months of continuous attacks... and after having troubles to provide inexistent supplies and risked to see the front collapsed, the China offensive has been finally stopped...

After almost 1,2,3,... 10 months... I have been finally able to escalate enough to remove the Marco Polo's Spirit (why on Earth should it reduce my offensive stats????). All with the Soviets who continue to maintain control of the northern skies. The more I increase the number of fighters, the more they increase their involvement. But, I have gain the fifth element... research slot, and some more infantry technologies... and well..., 10 new flaming divisions to send in the next absurdly pathetic offensive. Maybe tomorrow. Stay tuned!

 

[MP.001]

Just to provide a bit more details about this subspecies of ... campaign? war? work of charity? here the huge effort on focus and laws anf government at the start of today's game:
- Focus advance:
3 Manchurian Projects;
7 x purge Kadoha (the choice if you want invade China in 1937)
- Laws & Gov:
Extensive conscription
Closed economy
War Economy

But, here the gem: division templates:
* Before that logistical disaster
Infantry (Hohei Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon

Mixed (Dokuritsu Konsei Ryodan):
- Combat: 3 Infantry, 2 Infantry, 2 Light Tank
- Support: 1 Eng

Motorized (Jidousha Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Motorized Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

Marine (Rikusentai):
- Combat: 2x3 Marines
- Support: 1 Eng

Garrison (Chuton-chi Shidan):
- Combat: 2x3 Infantry
- Support: -

* After the logistical disaster:
Infantry (Hohei Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Mixed (Dokuritsu Konsei Ryodan):
- Combat: 3 Infantry, 2 Infantry, 2x2 Light Tank
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Motorized (Jidousha Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Motorized Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

Marine (Rikusentai):
- Combat: 2x3 Marines
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Garrison (Chuton-chi Shidan):
- Combat: 2x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

So, as yu can see, the mess has been created by... few support companies... and a couple of brigates.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Just to provide a bit more details about this subspecies of ... campaign? war? work of charity? here the huge effort on focus and laws anf government at the start of today's game:
- Focus advance:
3 Manchurian Projects;
7 x purge Kadoha (the choice if you want invade China in 1937)
- Laws & Gov:
Extensive conscription
Closed economy
War Economy

But, here the gem: division templates:
* Before that logistical disaster
Infantry (Hohei Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon

Mixed (Dokuritsu Konsei Ryodan):
- Combat: 3 Infantry, 2 Infantry, 2 Light Tank
- Support: 1 Eng

Motorized (Jidousha Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Motorized Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

Marine (Rikusentai):
- Combat: 2x3 Marines
- Support: 1 Eng

Garrison (Chuton-chi Shidan):
- Combat: 2x3 Infantry
- Support: -

* After the logistical disaster:
Infantry (Hohei Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Mixed (Dokuritsu Konsei Ryodan):
- Combat: 3 Infantry, 2 Infantry, 2x2 Light Tank
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Motorized (Jidousha Shidan):
- Combat: 4x3 Motorized Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

Marine (Rikusentai):
- Combat: 2x3 Marines
- Support: 1 Eng, 1 cavalry recon, 1 artillery

Garrison (Chuton-chi Shidan):
- Combat: 2x3 Infantry
- Support: 1 artillery, 1 Eng, 1 Motorized Recon

So, as yu can see, the mess has been created by... few support companies... and a couple of brigates.

These are some interesting and seemingly backwards choices. Upping conscription? Closed trades? War eco when you can total mob from focus tree? Investing in manchuria?

None of those templates are really all that good either.

 

[MP.001]

These are some interesting and seemingly backwards choices. Upping conscription? Closed trades? War eco when you can total mob from focus tree? Investing in manchuria?

None of those templates are really all that good either.

That templates are less than mediocre, but as you can see, with that... sort of production, there is not much you can do. Total mob from focus tre... do you mean...?

 

[CraniumMuppet]

So some quick notes based on what I have seen.

You probably want to be on total mobalization and not war economy. You can get there by going down the spiritual mobalization focus

Not sure why you ratcheded up your manpower law. Its not really needed this early on and you waste 150 pp. Probably same issue with closing trade

No need for Mot recon on garrison, no need for cav recon on Marines, or imho no recon on most non tank divisions. It drains your support equipment and does not do much in that terrain

I would not do Manchurian route personally. Going down the other path is much more beneficial imo

Im not sure why you have mixed in 3 tanks divisions into your infantry divisions, or if you are trying to do space marines or something, but it doesn't really work that well as Japan because
1. You dont have time on IC output to field that many
2. You dont have enough tanks to field everything, which means that those divisions gets pierced anyway
Stuffing tanks in land based divisions makes them just move slow, especially in China where theres a lot of uneven terrain to slow it down. Tying them to land divisions will make them all move at 4km or whatever the base is.

Probably put down the infantry divisions to 20W. That will change next update but works for now. It also helps a bit with your lacking infantry equipment

I would personally focus more on the air war, make sure to contest air and use tac/cas since the Chinese generally dont have AA protection and their base template is relatively bad and not rely so much on tanks

 

[Victor_21]

All the screenshots show is exactly the situation you'd expect if you attempted to fight China with generic templates (i.e. similar enough ones to those used by the Nationalists) and fighting with a self-imposed gimping of your national economy. To say nothing of accounting for province combat width (i.e. a 'core' HOI4 mechanic) or the use of air superiority.

To be honest, your game looks alot like the real post-Marco Polo, Sino-Japanese War, where the IJA had tremendous difficulty making inroads to China's interior (pre Ichi-Go).

I find it hard to believe you came from HOI2. You never fight China in HOI2/DH with single division stacks, 1914 Infantry and without HQ units. Why would you assume the HOI4 equivalent could possibly work?

Truly baffling.

 

[Corpse Fool]

That templates are less than mediocre, but as you can see, with that... sort of production, there is not much you can do.

The templates are bad because they are off-width and generally over supported. This has very little to do with what your production is, and a lot more to do with seemingly not having a clear purpose for the division, or an understanding of what some of the stats (like combat width and armour) actually do.

If all you want to do is beat up china, space marine style templates with LT2 recon will get you the armour bonus for cheap, which is a 2.8x multi to their combat effectiveness, without much cost.

Total mob from focus tre... do you mean...?

Look at your focus tree. Even if you are fixated on going down the purge kodoha, look at all of the options.

 

[Kuro_Maikeru]

This is so painful, that i got the need to get out of my bush and stop lurking.
@MP.001 Dude, if you like, I can send you an archive with my Japan game that i played just today. I'm not a good player, so it's not a speed run, nor top meta play, but i can handle China, although they are not finished yet (63% capitulation). I'm half way into its territory and I'm in control of practicaly its entire coastline. There are a couple of save points, so you can look up closely how things progress.

 

[Grishnikov]

All the screenshots show is exactly the situation you'd expect if you attempted to fight China with generic templates (i.e. similar enough ones to those used by the Nationalists) and fighting with a self-imposed gimping of your national economy. To say nothing of accounting for province combat width (i.e. a 'core' HOI4 mechanic) or the use of air superiority.

To be honest, your game looks alot like the real post-Marco Polo, Sino-Japanese War, where the IJA had tremendous difficulty making inroads to China's interior (pre Ichi-Go).

I find it hard to believe you came from HOI2. You never fight China in HOI2/DH with single division stacks, 1914 Infantry and without HQ units. Why would you assume the HOI4 equivalent could possibly work?

Truly baffling.

This was my favourite part. The problems he presents are fundamental, strategic errors that would still apply to HOI2. I refuse to believe he played HOI2, HOI4 is 10x more forgiving than HOI2 when it comes to fundamentals.

 

[King Of Heroes]

Starting the War

Spoiler

Ending the War

Spoiler

Like I've been saying, please just post a save so we can find out exactly everything you've been doing wrong because we're really left guessing and I'm starting to think you want to complain and not learn.

 

[plared]

You have to wait for the end of the Marco Polo penalties. About 4 or 5 decisions. Then invade the canton part, use seven squares with only one army and stretch as far as you can. With one port conquered, take about 20 units and deploy, they are mountains and easy to defend.

Atte the next port, do the same and create another front with another 20 units. The AI will move a lot of what they have there. So it's time to push from the top. Try to unite armies and little by little you conquer ground.

Keep in mind that you will have to conquer practically all of China, but only China. Forget about the rest, except for the Canton part. That's where the industry is.

Use divisions 10 wide, at least you need more than a hundred. Also 20 for pushing and landing, but the bulk of 10 with engineer and nothing else.

You'll probably run out of equipment and weapons. Borrow from everyone, Italy if you raise friendship will give you and Germany from renaria too. There are other nations as well, you raise friendship with all the fascists and every now and then así.

It should take you a year or so since you attacked their ports and then add Marco Polo to that. I more or less declared at the end of '37 and when the second war starts I'm either finished or I'm already conquering their last cities.

 

[King Of Heroes]

You have to wait for the end of the Marco Polo penalties. About 4 or 5 decisions. Then invade the canton part, use seven squares with only one army and stretch as far as you can. With one port conquered, take about 20 units and deploy, they are mountains and easy to defend.

Atte the next port, do the same and create another front with another 20 units. The AI will move a lot of what they have there. So it's time to push from the top. Try to unite armies and little by little you conquer ground.

Keep in mind that you will have to conquer practically all of China, but only China. Forget about the rest, except for the Canton part. That's where the industry is.

Use divisions 10 wide, at least you need more than a hundred. Also 20 for pushing and landing, but the bulk of 10 with engineer and nothing else.

You'll probably run out of equipment and weapons. Borrow from everyone, Italy if you raise friendship will give you and Germany from renaria too. There are other nations as well, you raise friendship with all the fascists and every now and then así.

It should take you a year or so since you attacked their ports and then add Marco Polo to that. I more or less declared at the end of '37 and when the second war starts I'm either finished or I'm already conquering their last cities.

It's actually best to completely stay away from Canton due to some weirdness regarding collaboration governments.

 

[Black_Shade]

It's actually best to completely stay away from Canton due to some weirdness regarding collaboration governments.

Yeah. You want to do 2 collaboration governments in Nat. China, and never touch a single GQ province. If you do that, when China falls you can annex the GQ provinces (which have all the resources) and have them with 70% collaboration, as they get counted as nationalist territory. If you take the GQ provinces yourself, they will be counted as GQ territory and you won't get the collaboration boost.


Also this whole thread is mind boggling- China is a cake walk and this is like a case study in how not to play. Wasting 450 pp on things that your focus tree gives you for free? Manchuria focuses? Horrible templates? Attacking with single divisions? Just what on earth. This has to be a complete newbie to any grand strategy game or a massive trolling attempt, there is no way the OP is a veteran from previous HoI games and playing like this.

And it's not like there's not things to bash about HoI4- air combat and the air war is about 10 steps backwards from HoI2/3 (gogo instantly teleporting planes that don't have to travel through/over provinces with AA!), the naval combat since MtG just doesn't make any sense with respect to carriers, the supply system basically doesn't exist allowing armies to balloon to ridiculous sizes, the tech system is just straight up worse than HoI2/3 and incredibly restrictive compared to what nations historically researched, etc.. But the complaints raised by the OP are almost entirely because he is intentionally playing poorly or just doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[bERt0r]

You have to change your division templates. Those light tank divisions you start with, they're useless as they are.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

The templates are bad because they are off-width

To be fair, you can work even with 24w (Japan default infantry, IIRC) if you use them in a group of 5 for two-directional attacks (provided there's no river involved), but that kind of requires you to attack (which OP does not really do).

 

[King Of Heroes]

To be fair, you can work even with 24w (Japan default infantry, IIRC) if you use them in a group of 5 for two-directional attacks (provided there's no river involved), but that kind of requires you to attack (which OP does not really do).

Personally I don't even bother keeping to width in China, Just getting the soft attack quick enough to get things moving without shaking the divisions on the field too much feels more important.

 

[WindingArc]

Since no one else seems to have mentioned it yet, your army management can be improved by a lot. Use fewer armies so that your best generals are in command of more divisions. Use a single theater for the entirety of China so that you can group all of your armies into a few army groups (bigger armies will facilitate this). That will allow you to have each of your armies grouped under a field marshal, which will provide more combat bonuses.

More importantly, you seem to have given up on using front lines and, by extension, army plans as your screen shots went on. This is a very bad idea. Front lines reduce micro management and, even if you want to control all of your units manually, you still need front lines to create attack plans for your armies. Plans give you combat bonuses even if your divisions aren't actively carrying the plans out.

Also, as Cranium Muppet said, you appear to be badly mismanaging your focuses and political power early in the game. Go down the Zaibatsu branch after purging the Kodoha faction to get factories and economy law changes. Use all of your extra political power for political advisors (starting with the Silent Workhorse), research bonuses (industry, infantry equipment, and naval are the most important), and military advisors (advisors that give your infantry divisions combat bonuses are best).

If you're not keeping up on infantry equipment research and production, and if you're not repeatedly taking the decision to escalate the war in China, you're setting yourself up for failure.

 

[Ringwraith_JP]

Also (and this might be something wrong with the screenshot) you don't seem to use frontlines and the battleplanner 100% of the time. You'll want that planning bonus whenever you can.