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Despite you never managed to back up your claim that playing the game as it is intended to be played is in fact an exploit, you keep calling it an exploit.
Despite you never managed to back up your claim that exploiting this exploit is intended the way this game is intended to be played , you keep calling it an the way this game is intended to be played.
We're both guessing here, and until a dev. gives the real truth I am going to be in the conviction 100% returns with fortified heroes and having them do your filthy work is... infact... a total EXPLOIT.

As you probably wish for a less pacey game (motived by what concerns?), you keep masquerading that wish under the claim of bringing some strategical depth.
No, I wish a more strategic game, where giving your heroes money has a downside too. Don't place a flag, destroy the lair, having the heroes do your job, having them fortify themselves (potions, armor, weaponry) and then get the full cake back on a platter. Money has to "vanish" somewhere is the hero-economy, as it does in the sovereign economy. Otherwise there is no reason NOT to supply your heroes with infin. cash, as they get better for it, and you are none the worse, while you should (making them stronger should make you poorer, on all fronts, not just research).

it will only slow down the rythm of the game.
Only if that "rythm" consists of pooring gold to your heroes and getting all of it back.

Do you really think that because of the magic bazaar, players can build anything anytime?
No, but due to 100% returns and the heroes desire for the potions it means you can give the hero any moneyvalue you want, and get it back into your personal economy.

Likewise, in order to play the game as it should be played, why dont you request that monsters spawn less often? It would be more efficient since contrary to a bazaar, the monsters do bring an added share of gold.
No, because they are not the issue.
Nor is the gold generated by the Palace, trading post, marketplace or magic bazaar. All of it is "evaporated" at some point (building, spells, research). However, hero gold ain't.
The issue isn't hero gold aiding your economy, it's aiding your heroes economy by pumping cash in it, and see no ill results of it at all, as all eventually slumbers back to the sovereign economy.
Gold HAS to evaporate at some point in the hero economy to prevent infinite gold spawnage in that economy. And don't all you guys hate MFKS1 economy just for that, the infinite gold spawnage? Don't you prefer MFKS2 economy? Then why not put it through to the heroes economy?

If you want to add strategical depth through money return, you add to develop a different taxation system for guilds and heroes.
Or you just give 50% of spendings back to the sovereign, so when gold is gifted, not all returns to you.
It already serves greatly to add strategy, and it doesn't hurt poor old MP play.
 
It would have made more sense to have a building, such as a brothel, which could do the job of the magic MB, but since we have heros addicted to the additives in potions (looking at them, there must be alot), i guess thats what they have to sink money into.

Brothels would be nice tho. Maybe give your hero the 'satisfied' perk for a day afterwards.

'Disease'. Its already in the game, and the humor element would be unparalleled :)
 
Heh. Boy is my thread popular! Good to see people agree this is a serious issue. Lots of good suggestions so far. Now we need some response from the devs... :confused:
 
'Disease'. Its already in the game, and the humor element would be unparalleled :)
50% chance of each? :cool:

One thing that does strike me regarding making hero economies non-100% is that it would help reduce the possibly exploitative nature of cancelling defense flags causing the remaining balance to be paid to nearby heroes (which I don't see as being any worse than other methods like, say, putting a huge reward on a rat, but some people consider it to be a potential exploit while boasting about using said other methods, so, eh...).
 
I have not read people boasting about overpaying to kill a rat. As I read it, there are people who simply report the state of the game as it is and what the natural gameplay is and do not fancy on how the game should be played under imaginary constraints nothing in the game hints at.

For the defense flag, it would be again a simple order of magnitude. No deep change. I already stated a major difference with the attack flag. The attack flag exposes to a minimum risk, revoking a defense flag to nothing. Wizards can die killed by rats.

It is hard to see how, in the spirit of the game, the large reward attack flag could be an exploit. As I tried to keep my expectations as low as possible for this game, I skipped any official/unofficial report on possible game content. Yesterday, I read the official website.
It states that heroes are now goal driven. As a King, the position given by the game, it is consequent to choose the adequate goal and the adequate reward for each hero.
As I try to tell my opinion on this or that, I often include argumentation when some people seem to forget about it and simply cast stuff resembling more with whims that anything else.

If there is an exploit, it would be putting an explore flag on the front door of a wizard tower to increase the chances a wizard, class not interested in explore flags, take it with no risks. And yet...

But I am eager of reading an argumentation on how the large reward attack flag is an exploit.

Hassat Hunter said:
Despite you never managed to back up your claim that exploiting this exploit is intended the way this game is intended to be played , you keep calling it an the way this game is intended to be played.
We're both guessing here, and until a dev. gives the real truth I am going to be in the conviction 100% returns with fortified heroes and having them do your filthy work is... infact... a total EXPLOIT.
Guessing on this matter? The "guess" (more a deduction) I made was that the consumption of magic bazaar potions was the way the developpers found to palliate to heroes storing wealth in later stages of the game. I also take note that the current taxation and wealth distribution is an efficient way to tackle MU balance issues.

For the rest, I only played the game. I dont fancy on how the game Majesty 2 should be played but I report on ways that might be efficient to play it.
No surmises here.

Nothing hints at the developpers wanting it to be otherwise since the 100 pc return is consistently adopted throughout the whole game. It is nothing specific to magic bazaar potions as everything else is tailored the same.

Reading the website yesterday
The economy of Majesty 2 is an elaborate and intriguing system. When the King (the player) gives money to a hero, they don’t just hire someone for a certain sum of money which they will never see again. Rather, given an efficiently developed economy, the money will return to the King’s treasury sooner or later – in the form of taxes paid by guilds, markets, shops and other members of the economic system of the game.

Seems quite explicit and corresponds with ingame experience.

The 100 pc return is a different issue from the Magic Bazaar potions consumption. You might want to start a distinct thread on it. The magic bazaar potions consumption doesnt generate it. It mere emphazes it.

No, because they are not the issue.
Nor is the gold generated by the Palace, trading post, marketplace or magic bazaar. All of it is "evaporated" at some point (building, spells, research). However, hero gold ain't.
The issue isn't hero gold aiding your economy, it's aiding your heroes economy by pumping cash in it, and see no ill results of it at all, as all eventually slumbers back to the sovereign economy.
Gold HAS to evaporate at some point in the hero economy to prevent infinite gold spawnage in that economy. And don't all you guys hate MFKS1 economy just for that, the infinite gold spawnage? Don't you prefer MFKS2 economy? Then why not put it through to the heroes economy?
I dont understand this point at all.
Where does the distinction between buildings, upgrades(potions research cost etc) and heroes "economy" come from?
The building and the heroes are not different. They "act" the same economicallywise.

Building: start cost evaporated.
Upgrades: start cost evaporated
Hero: start cost evaporated.

Later, they are located in a sequence of positions in the economic cycle, with no fundamental differences from an economic point of view. Heroes and buildings are links in the economic cycles between the King and the King.

Neither the shops nor the guilds vaporize money. They are like the hero. They play a similar part to the hero's. Mere vectors to transfer wealth in the economic cycle.

As to hating on Majesty economy, I dont. I underlined that Majesty and Majesty 2 play on different principles now.
 
IMHO the current Hero economy is dev's intention. So I won't go and call it an exploit. But it's a flawed one that need some change.

Like I stated before, I don't believe problem lies at bazaar infinity consumption.
It's that there is "No Leak" in hero's economy.
Contructing building create a leak in economy.
Researching new item,skill create a leak in economy.
Using Sovereign spell create a leak in economy.
Even a defend flag can also cause a leak sometime when emergency arise.
But, there is no leak in attack/explore flag that is where unbalance lies.

Current system don't offer player a infinite money to build infinite building. It offer player a infinite quest and infinite money to circulate in hero economy. It also promote player to spam only attack flag and refuse to use any sovereign spell or other flag if possible. If there is also a leak in flag system (better yet in hero economy as a whole) other option will become more viable.

But even with a leak in hero economy, I believe heroes's adictive in potion is still needed. There must be some method for heroes to circulate money back to the system after they are fully upgraded. Simist mind may prefer heroes to go sulking in inn, visit garden, gambling at gamble hall. I have no problem with that it's nice flavour and all. But in the end it's just different line of text and location where your heroes is idle. It's even worse gameplay-wise because these activities have no benefit to heroes at all. bazaar's potion at least offer you useless buff.

Don't get me wrong, I also prefer them to add those buildings over drinking potion over and over. It make the game more variety, more believable and may be more challenge. But if you cut a potion addictive down without offer any new method to clean heroes's money, I don't think it's a good idea.
 
But I am eager of reading an argumentation on how the large reward attack flag is an exploit.
Put a flag on something that's about to die anyway, bump up the reward a couple of times with the +500 button, and watch it die on the next hit? Seems a pretty minimal risk to me, and not much different to placing a 1000g defend flag and then cancelling it.
 
Monsters are not to die anyway (including rats, dire rats, ratmen) Often you need to decide a quest to clean a sector.

It is different for low level heroes/weak heroes. Attack flags can lead a hero to his death. A defense flag immediately revoked (and distributing its wealth around) is virtually a zero risk action.
 
Oh, yes they will. Heroes WILL clear rats and things in your base automatically if they don't have anything better to do, so you just need a wounded rat in the right spot.
 
I suspect this depends heavily on your town design. I ran a few experiments and in some of them, I managed to build my town opposite to the rat sewers.
I might check this better but I never felt that heroes moved specially to clean rats. As all those experiments are based on the "let heroes express themselves", my contribution is always kept to the minimum.
 
draxynnic said:
Put a flag on something that's about to die anyway, bump up the reward a couple of times with the +500 button, and watch it die on the next hit? Seems a pretty minimal risk to me, and not much different to placing a 1000g defend flag and then cancelling it.

So basically your argument for having defence flags distribute wealth when canceled, is because its similar to something you described as an 'Exploit'.

Don't ever get a career in game design, for the sake of us all.
 
We don't call the large flags an exploit, just that 100% of that money returns to you, the Sovereign.

You know, like DarkThug and I keep saying?

But I am eager of reading an argumentation on how the large reward attack flag is an exploit.
It isn't. Unlike the hero economy and rogues-only strategy. BTW, I heard the new patch will upgrade prices of Rogues(skills?), so I guess me calling them an "exploit" was somewhat true after all, even in the devs eyes.

Guessing on this matter? The "guess" (more a deduction) I made was that the consumption of magic bazaar potions was the way the developpers found to palliate to heroes storing wealth in later stages of the game. I also take note that the current taxation and wealth distribution is an efficient way to tackle MU balance issues.
I totally agree. But they kind of overdid it with their consumption (hence this thread) and the return each potion gives to your economy (100%) which our discussion is about.
No one claims the Magic Bazaar wasn't an intended money sink or objects to said function, but the way it does it right now is very, very broken.

Also, tell me exactly how 50% tax instead of 100% tax on all purchases harms MP-play instead of actually enriching it? More strategy, less standoffs due to large amounts of money, etc.
I can only imagine MP to flourish with said changes.

Building: start cost evaporated.
Upgrades: start cost evaporated
Hero: start cost evaporated.
Exactly. However that is funded by the gold generation of the marketplace, magic bazaar and trading post, and the selling function of the marketplace, magic bazaar and blacksmith.
However, in the hero economy all the is is "generation" and no "evaporation" like you mentioned above in the sovereign economy.

But yeah, maybe we do need another thread on that, even if it's very much connected to the way the Magic Bazaar recycles wealth now.
 
So basically your argument for having defence flags distribute wealth when canceled, is because its similar to something you described as an 'Exploit'.

Don't ever get a career in game design, for the sake of us all.
I love it when people think they're being smart when they either don't know or are ignoring the background of a discussion, I really do...

It was Chien who said that being able to give instant payouts to defense flags was potentially exploitative. I'm arguing that it's no worse than simply putting overly large attack or explore flags purely for the purpose of putting gold in your hero's coffers. (For completeness, he's arguing that these methods still present risks of the gold either going to the wrong hero or of that wounded rat managing to win.)

To put it in a larger context, I also think that the hero economy shouldn't recycle completely into the tax economy anyway (which would also reduce the benefit of potion addiction cycling gold from the heroes to the Sovereign), which would reduce any possible exploitative benefit of transferring gold to your heroes (since there is a cost to do so rather than all the gold eventually landing back in your coffers).

In the end, I think the tactical, realism and gameplay advantages of being able to pay out remaining balances on defense flags rather than forfeiting them outweigh any small increase in exploitative potential this would allow.
 
I fully agree that all items purchased should not recycle back into the economy. Shopkeepers have to feed themselves, etc. They can't give all the gold back to the king.
 
I suspect this depends heavily on your town design. I ran a few experiments and in some of them, I managed to build my town opposite to the rat sewers.
I might check this better but I never felt that heroes moved specially to clean rats. As all those experiments are based on the "let heroes express themselves", my contribution is always kept to the minimum.


i get that alot too, it seems that if you can build enough buildings to make peasant house's spawn faster then sewers - then all the sewers tend to get clumped together in one spot....it gets real fun when you can get the graveyard right next to it too. you can level your hero's forever off of them non-stop with one upgraded guardhouse. - then when you are ready to send heroes out of town, one dwarf tower will kill everything that spawns in town. - i've had that twice on the life or death mission when farming xp for heroes. the last time it was also the north most point for where the dragon comes down, so all the heroes were always standing around there to kill it before it ever fired one shot.
 
Yep, from my observation, peasant house and sewer tend to spread around the castle evenly. If you build all your building in one side of the town, Sewer will likely spawn together at otherside (to make your town spread evenly). If you build your guild around castle, you will get sewers spread all over the town, ready at every guild's entrance for your lowbie to level off them. Your choice :)
 
help

I am running the full version of Majesty 2 on windows xp home service pack 3
The game will not start, it gets to the loading screen then showing only the error in the title. [Invalid call (gem\gem\render\device.h, 217)]
 
I am running the full version of Majesty 2 on windows xp home service pack 3
The game will not start, it gets to the loading screen then showing only the error in the title. [Invalid call (gem\gem\render\device.h, 217)]
Maybe you running game without installing patches? Some gamers faced this error, before first patch was released
Also, some strange rare errors with "Invalid call" sometimes were solved by deleting the folder "Majesty2" in "my documents", so the game can create it again proprly
 
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