[MOD] Rex In Regno Suo Est Imperator (historical overhaul)

[Cèsar de Quart]

So Rousillon wasn't a part of Septimania?

Eeeh, that map makes Roussillon a part of "Visigoth". Superpose it to a map of the Catalan Counties and you'll see. The small tip at the south? That's Cap de Creus. Catalonia ends some 2km north of it, and in this map the line extends far north, up to Salses.

However, internet found maps can be a tad incorrect. I'll give you that Roussillon was indeed a contested area and I could have been wrong there. I'll need to recheck my sources.

Oh, and you are right, it wasn't a feudal system yet. The title of count of Barcelona and the "maquis" of the Hispanic mark weren't titles you could simply inherit. The king could give it to someone he liked. And I've said somewhat independent. It was de facto independent, not de jure. Why? Because it was an integral part of the frankish empire, what the coudts did was a betrayal.

Feudalism was a process, not an overnight phenomenon. Even if Catalan feudalism did develop faster than in other places, it had some gradual setup. Private inheritance of public offices was one of them. Borell II did inherit his county from his father, and he left it to his son. Inheritance of titles was a thing already, although not on paper, and the king just confirmed the appointment made by the father. That's what we discussed in another thread just the other day. As for your insistence on "de jure", yes, it was in theory part of the Frankish kingdom, but when it's been 200 years since anyone has claimed it, proclaimed it or reclaimed it, the "de jure" phrase becomes meaningless. Especially here in CK, where de jure means "it is of course, by all means, rightfully ours and we'll take it now, anytime", which is not what happened.

As for "betrayal", Borrell II might have been a traitor, but that's not the point, we're not judging his actions. The point is: after this "betrayal", was Barcelona independent? And the answer is yes, we both have said it.

The fact that Borrell II felt entitled to proclaim he didn't owe anything to the King of the Franks and get away with it proves two things:

1- The concept of privative, private domain over a county, formerly propriety of the State, was already seen as such by former "public administrators".
2- The King of the Franks was powerless, or didn't want, to do anything about that.

I'll remember you that Borrell II's independence was just one more of a series of "de facto independences" that plagued Occitania between the years 900 and 1200, in the broader context of feudalisation.

And Borrell II did care about Rousillon being part of "Gothia". I found in this book, and he seems to be a somewhat good catalan historian (although a tad nationalist, but it's pretty normal among historians in Catalonia, and that makes them somewhat worse, but that's another story)

Salrach is a serious historian. Nationalism is quite spread among historians everywhere, by the way. It's a plague we just can't get out of, it seems. I'm guilty of it sometimes too.

 

[Farathorn]

I absolutely don't have the English skills to support this conversation, but I just want to point out that yes, the Comtats (Roussillon, Vallespir, Cerdagne Conflent) are part of Septimania from the Reconquest by Pépin le Bref. This is enough indisputable on this subject. This is normal because Septimania is the extension of yhe old Narbonensis, and the boundary between the Narbonensis and Tarraconensis is the actual frontier~~. For the claims of the Roussillon, and more broadly on Catalonia, no, this is something very common, when the King of France got enough power to put his nose in the "Midi" (the term "occitania" is VERY heavily discussed in the historical society), of Philippe Auguste to Louis IX ~

@DKM : Thanks !

I've sended a mail to Huang for the problem.

 

[pirro]

Eeeh, that map makes Roussillon a part of "Visigoth". Superpose it to a map of the Catalan Counties and you'll see. The small tip at the south? That's Cap de Creus. Catalonia ends some 2km north of it, and in this map the line extends far north, up to Salses.

However, internet found maps can be a tad incorrect. I'll give you that Roussillon was indeed a contested area and I could have been wrong there. I'll need to recheck my sources.



Feudalism was a process, not an overnight phenomenon. Even if Catalan feudalism did develop faster than in other places, it had some gradual setup. Private inheritance of public offices was one of them. Borell II did inherit his county from his father, and he left it to his son. Inheritance of titles was a thing already, although not on paper, and the king just confirmed the appointment made by the father. That's what we discussed in another thread just the other day. As for your insistence on "de jure", yes, it was in theory part of the Frankish kingdom, but when it's been 200 years since anyone has claimed it, proclaimed it or reclaimed it, the "de jure" phrase becomes meaningless. Especially here in CK, where de jure means "it is of course, by all means, rightfully ours and we'll take it now, anytime", which is not what happened.

As for "betrayal", Borrell II might have been a traitor, but that's not the point, we're not judging his actions. The point is: after this "betrayal", was Barcelona independent? And the answer is yes, we both have said it.

The fact that Borrell II felt entitled to proclaim he didn't owe anything to the King of the Franks and get away with it proves two things:

1- The concept of privative, private domain over a county, formerly propriety of the State, was already seen as such by former "public administrators".
2- The King of the Franks was powerless, or didn't want, to do anything about that.

I'll remember you that Borrell II's independence was just one more of a series of "de facto independences" that plagued Occitania between the years 900 and 1200, in the broader context of feudalisation.



Salrach is a serious historian. Nationalism is quite spread among historians everywhere, by the way. It's a plague we just can't get out of, it seems. I'm guilty of it sometimes too.

Mmmh, I think we are both (more or less) saying the same, but with different words. I agree on that Borrell was independent, sure he was, but de jure he was a vassal. A strong french king could have enforced it (and well, one could say that they did in 1640 ) and they tried when they defeated the aragonese in Muret.
For the nationalist part. Well, yes, it is, that's why I chose ancient history, you simply can't be a, say, athenian nationalist*

*(you can be an old-school athenian fanboy tho1 )

 

[pirro]

I absolutely don't have the English skills to support this conversation, but I just want to point out that yes, the Comtats (Roussillon, Vallespir, Cerdagne Conflent) are part of Septimania from the Reconquest by Pépin le Bref. This is enough indisputable on this subject. This is normal because Septimania is the extension of yhe old Narbonensis, and the boundary between the Narbonensis and Tarraconensis is the actual frontier~~. For the claims of the Roussillon, and more broadly on Catalonia, no, this is something very common, when the King of France got enough power to put his nose in the "Midi" (the term "occitania" is VERY heavily discussed in the historical society), of Philippe Auguste to Louis IX ~

@DKM : Thanks !

I've sended a mail to Huang for the problem.

Toulouse (et occitanie) est espagnol
(Funnily enough, two french friends I had back in my school/unviersity days were from Toulouse and they both loved Spain)

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Mmmh, I think we are both (more or less) saying the same, but with different words. I agree on that Borrell was independent, sure he was, but de jure he was a vassal. A strong french king could have enforced it (and well, one could say that they did in 1640 ) and they tried when they defeated the aragonese in Muret.
For the nationalist part. Well, yes, it is, that's why I chose ancient history, you simply can't be a, say, athenian nationalist*

*(you can be an old-school athenian fanboy tho1 )

Yes, we are saying mostly the same. Still, I don't think the "de jure" claim meant anything. Especially since all the claims France might have made to Catalonia were meaningless or illegal after Corbeil. I'm thinking game mechanics here: it feels very wrong already

I absolutely don't have the English skills to support this conversation, but I just want to point out that yes, the Comtats (Roussillon, Vallespir, Cerdagne Conflent) are part of Septimania from the Reconquest by Pépin le Bref. This is enough indisputable on this subject. This is normal because Septimania is the extension of yhe old Narbonensis, and the boundary between the Narbonensis and Tarraconensis is the actual frontier~~. For the claims of the Roussillon, and more broadly on Catalonia, no, this is something very common, when the King of France got enough power to put his nose in the "Midi" (the term "occitania" is VERY heavily discussed in the historical society), of Philippe Auguste to Louis IX ~

Occitania became a very common word for "Languedoc" in the XVIIth Century. There are many coins and medallions with the words CONVENTUM OCCITANIAE or COMITIA OCCITANIAE. It's late, but at least proves that Occitania is not something that Mistral and other occitanists made up in the XIXth Century. Even if it was Latin for Languedoc.

Spoiler

But I don't get your point: do you say that Catalonia was a part of France, or that it wasn't? I mean, Philippe Auguste didn't make any serious policy towards the Midi and the rest of the French kings didn't have any legitimacy invading Catalonia because Corbeil already stated that France refused any future claim over it.

My concern is gameplay, actually. I'm already bugged when I see France making levies out of all his Midi vassals, which didn't happen until Louis the Lion took the South (and then died) or by the Duke of Aquitaine actually acting like a vassal of France and not a king on his own right... I think the best way to represent politics before the Albigensian Crusade is having Toulouse, Aquitaine and the rest of the Midi princes as independent. France can go pick them up if she wants, but she'll usually have more pressing concerns, as she did historically.

So, besides that, now I might see Napoleonic legions getting so far south and establishing Departments! France had to struggle through 150 years of recovery to become the France we know under Philippe Auguste. THis setup might make France look like Victoria II's France by 1090. That's my concern.

 

[Farathorn]

@Cèsar :

Occitania became a very common word for "Languedoc" in the XVIIth Century.

That's the problem, it's too late! I rely on the work of a friend who worked on the testimony of the Midi's Lords during the Albigensian Crusade, and for him it is clear, more than the historiography is heavily polluted by regionalists, the "occitania" term is anachronistic and does not reflect the feudal reality of the region. What is the real connection between Provence, Empire Land, and Bordeaux, belonging to France de jure (and the Gascons lords never forget that,as to annoy the English, they wore their trial to the Parliament of Paris, ) but de facto Duke of Aquitaine, the King of England?

For the vision of "French" in Catalonia, I remember a chronic (Abbot Suger I think, but not sure), or "Gothia" is expressly mentioned as recognized in the kingdom, just as Britain . This list establish more the "traditional" boundaries of the kingdom of France than the territory where it exercises the real power of the king.

About the King of France that easily raises levies in the south, well I totally agree, it sucks. But one, this mechanism does not apply only to the King of France, the emperors of the HRE had so much trouble with the Italians, for example, and two in particular, I can't see how to modding that. This should be : larger the authority is, larger a "radius" around the royal domain for raise taxes and other troops~~


Otherwise I repeat for those that haven't seen, the English version is released !

 

[pirro]

Yes, we are saying mostly the same. Still, I don't think the "de jure" claim meant anything. Especially since all the claims France might have made to Catalonia were meaningless or illegal after Corbeil. I'm thinking game mechanics here: it feels very wrong already

It meant that, in game, a french king who is really powerful can simply walk by and annex Catalonia. He would definetly use some vague claim like "hey, it was part of my forefathers' frankish kingdom!".
Keep in mind that the french king wasn't exactly the most powerful one, he had a good share of internal problems

 

[Huanglukuzhu]

Thanks to ... er, GOD, this problem was sovled by restarting CK2 and it haven't appeared again.

 

[Alpharius001]

You should probably lower the demesne bonus from the legitimacy technology a bit, it fells a really wierd to have a demesne limit of 7 as the king of Aragon in 1066.

 

[Byzan]

I like it alot, and hope the mod can be patched for the upcoming xpac.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

It meant that, in game, a french king who is really powerful can simply walk by and annex Catalonia. He would definetly use some vague claim like "hey, it was part of my forefathers' frankish kingdom!".
Keep in mind that the french king wasn't exactly the most powerful one, he had a good share of internal problems

But that's my complain exactly: first, he should have to put his kingdom in order, and that's something CK2 skips entirely, so Philippe Capet can go Napoleon on day 1.

@Cèsar :

That's the problem, it's too late! I rely on the work of a friend who worked on the testimony of the Midi's Lords during the Albigensian Crusade, and for him it is clear, more than the historiography is heavily polluted by regionalists, the "occitania" term is anachronistic and does not reflect the feudal reality of the region. What is the real connection between Provence, Empire Land, and Bordeaux, belonging to France de jure (and the Gascons lords never forget that,as to annoy the English, they wore their trial to the Parliament of Paris, ) but de facto Duke of Aquitaine, the King of England?

I know, Occitania is not a correct term for the XII Century, I was just using it as a broad gepgraphical definition. Languedoc for the old Septimania or Midi for a more general approach would be more appropriate, yes.

However, Provence and the Languedoc had cultural ties and political relations (the whole fight between Bosonids and Burgundians ended up encompassing Toulouse and Barcelona. That's where the coat of arms of both, the Toulousain cross and the red pals on or come from according to Pastoreau). I agree, though, that pretending unity from Nice to Bordeaux is quite far-fetched.

For the vision of "French" in Catalonia, I remember a chronic (Abbot Suger I think, but not sure), or "Gothia" is expressly mentioned as recognized in the kingdom, just as Britain . This list establish more the "traditional" boundaries of the kingdom of France than the territory where it exercises the real power of the king.

It's interesting, I'll try to give it a read. I studied documents from the XIth and XIIth Century Capetians and their world and it was fascinating.

About the King of France that easily raises levies in the south, well I totally agree, it sucks. But one, this mechanism does not apply only to the King of France, the emperors of the HRE had so much trouble with the Italians, for example, and two in particular, I can't see how to modding that. This should be : larger the authority is, larger a "radius" around the royal domain for raise taxes and other troops~~


Otherwise I repeat for those that haven't seen, the English version is released !

Just make them independent. It works, it replicates historical conflicts (mostly), it depletes French and HRE manpower as it should be and it allows the "theorical vassals" to act independent, as they did, until they're brought back to the fold, if they ever are.

The de jure setting ensures that the French king or the HRE still have some measure of authority over the area (a bit more would be nice, like the possibility of redirecting trials and petitions to the "natural lord", in spite of them being independent or even dependant of some other lord). This last thing would also help recreate the duality of the Gascon lords, which would ask protection to England and France depending on who wronged them, one because it was their factic liege and the other one, their natural liege.

 

[JohnKR]

Best historical based mod out there! Congratulations for your work! Very good choices in the history part and very good posted answers that make this mod even more promising Cesar and Farathorn, don't change your path!

 

[guillec87]

a really great mod!

 

[Aetherius]

Or just create a relations malus.

 

[Farathorn]

You should probably lower the demesne bonus from the legitimacy technology a bit, it fells a really wierd to have a demesne limit of 7 as the king of Aragon in 1066.

Yes, you're right but unfortunately we can't really change the curve progression block by block technology ... I would have preferred the new demesne_size permit but it gives desmesne to all the lords of the kingdom so it's not possible ...

@JohnKR, Byzan, guille: Thanks !

@Cèsar :
The problem is that the conflicts between the suzerain and vassal is frankly VERY common, including among Muslims for example. I think doing a "radius authority" would really be better if Paradox hear me! No, I think make them independent seems wrong. The lords of the south have never broken the oath of vassalage to the king of France as did Borell. Although Borell was genuinely independent of the king of France, he broke his vassalage because Hugues Capet not sent reinforcements after the devastating raid of Al-Mansur on Barcelona ~~

 

[Alpharius001]

Yes, you're right but unfortunately we can't really change the curve progression block by block technology ... I would have preferred the new demesne_size permit but it gives desmesne to all the lords of the kingdom so it's not possible ...

Ok, no problem.
This mod is very interesting and immersive, good job!

 

[skaraher]

But that's my complain exactly: first, he should have to put his kingdom in order, and that's something CK2 skips entirely, so Philippe Capet can go Napoleon on day 1.

If I'm not mistaken, you can't declare De Jure war in this mod if your crown authority isn't high enough. Which is kinda historical, ERE wasn't invading Sicily and Venice whenever it had the chance to do so.

 

[MFCamillus]

I seem to be getting an odd response from RIRSEI_2000005. Playing in Gelre 880 (now). Lotharingia has Limited Crown Authority. Once I formed the Duchy and became eligible for this event it is firing around every 3 weeks. Not placing any modifiers on myself or the liege from what I can see. Since it seems to be having no effect I pushed the MTTH up quite a bit to stop it from interrupting, but wanted to mention that it does not appear to be flagging anything or ceasing to fire.

 

[Farathorn]

@ALpharius : Thanks !

@Skaraher : Yes, true, you can't declare de jure war if you are not on Moderate authority.

@MFCamillus : Thank you for report the problem. Strange that my French players don't have reported anything to me ... can you send me your save, please ?

 

[Mixxer5]

This mod is great. Any plans for further changes?

EDIT: I meant- further changes for internal mechanics ofc (like no high authority before 1020, legitimacy tech having really high impact, etc) I've seen previews already.

BTW- How about putting this mod on Steam?