[MOD] When the World Stopped Making Sense - A Migrational Era Mod for CK3 - 476-700 AD

[Duarte]

There's no current plans to implement Hermeticism as a separate faith, although Harran is Platonic at start.

Well i guess i might has well make a pitch then, in my view the basic utility of the hermetism would be the following, it would be an event religion more than anything, if possible it would be in it's own religious group of scholary or eseoteric religion, in wich faiths like hypistarian and other outlier faiths could be put into.

to go a bit more about this proposed religious group: essentially it operates similarly to how gnosticism operates in vanilla, rather then having a generic syncretism trait it has a unique "scholarly faith" tenet, that boosts learning lifestyle but make the conversion of individual characters of low learning much more difficult, other faith such has platonism and neoplatonism could also make use of this tenet, and additional effect of this tenet is that it's much cheaper to convert to faiths of this tenet if one has the scholar trait, unlike the gnostic religious who can appear has heresies of other religious, religious of this group, or any such religion with this tenet, only really appear when a character with the scholar trait reaches high stress, the specific event that encourages conversion to a different religion will always have one of these religions as a option in addition to the other the even presents.

on to hermetism it's self: for simplicities sake, hermetism in the game should be a combination hermetism the bespoque religion and hermeticism the widepsread alchemical pratice, as such it's tenet should be the esoterism, to represent the more esoteric part of hermeticsit practice, adaptive, to represent how hermetism proper can be relatively easily combined with many of the mainstream monotheist religions and either asceticism, to represent the anti-matrialist tones some hermetist philosophy had or astrology to represent it's role in hermeticist practice.

Sorry for the unprompted wall of text but i have been mulling on this one for a while, and was curious as to what where your thoughts.

 

[Avald]

So I have a question in regards to the creed doctrine that I saw in the recent screenshots. What does "adoptist creed" actually mean in this regard for Arianism (Gothic version has it covered by the tooltip). Cause if it refers to adoptionism, then well.. that isn't arianism. So I would appreciate some clarification on this point.

Otherwise all I can say is that I am very excited for the release of the Alpha. Fingers crossed that your proposed release date will turn into the real release date.

 

[LT-Rascek]

Well i guess i might has well make a pitch then, in my view the basic utility of the hermetism would be the following, it would be an event religion more than anything, if possible it would be in it's own religious group of scholary or eseoteric religion, in wich faiths like hypistarian and other outlier faiths could be put into.

to go a bit more about this proposed religious group: essentially it operates similarly to how gnosticism operates in vanilla, rather then having a generic syncretism trait it has a unique "scholarly faith" tenet, that boosts learning lifestyle but make the conversion of individual characters of low learning much more difficult, other faith such has platonism and neoplatonism could also make use of this tenet, and additional effect of this tenet is that it's much cheaper to convert to faiths of this tenet if one has the scholar trait, unlike the gnostic religious who can appear has heresies of other religious, religious of this group, or any such religion with this tenet, only really appear when a character with the scholar trait reaches high stress, the specific event that encourages conversion to a different religion will always have one of these religions as a option in addition to the other the even presents.

on to hermetism it's self: for simplicities sake, hermetism in the game should be a combination hermetism the bespoque religion and hermeticism the widepsread alchemical pratice, as such it's tenet should be the esoterism, to represent the more esoteric part of hermeticsit practice, adaptive, to represent how hermetism proper can be relatively easily combined with many of the mainstream monotheist religions and either asceticism, to represent the anti-matrialist tones some hermetist philosophy had or astrology to represent it's role in hermeticist practice.

Sorry for the unprompted wall of text but i have been mulling on this one for a while, and was curious as to what where your thoughts.

I have some concerns about adding a faith for a single county that is likely to be converted before AD 500; additionally, there's counter arguments against the Sabians of Harran being Hemertics; [1] goes into some extensive detail of the paucity of evidence for Harran being Hermetic and instead arguing it was Hellenized Semetic Paganism with an emphasis on Astrology/the stars.

I'll consider your arguments, but at this point, I'm trying to avoid adding anything "new" to Alpha and focusing on completing our current feature goals.

[1] - https://academic.oup.com/book/26886/chapter-abstract/195944987?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

So I have a question in regards to the creed doctrine that I saw in the recent screenshots. What does "adoptist creed" actually mean in this regard for Arianism (Gothic version has it covered by the tooltip). Cause if it refers to adoptionism, then well.. that isn't arianism. So I would appreciate some clarification on this point.

Otherwise all I can say is that I am very excited for the release of the Alpha. Fingers crossed that your proposed release date will turn into the real release date.

That was an issue with localization I missed. It's been fixed already:

 

[LT-Rascek]

Not a Real Dev Diary, Just a Retrospective

Reviewing errors and bugfixes lately, I felt compelled to review some items and I decided to share some images with you. I'm sure I've posted some of these before, but in case you missed them. Not too much in the way of content today, just some brief images.

Christian Doctrine Images got a big revamp​

The single most important change to Vanilla features in all of CK3 modding: custom localization for Zoroastrian Divine Marriage!​

Nestorianism got a brush up in terms of localization with the more appropriate "Eastern Syriac" name and "Eastern Dyophistism" Christology​

Who would the Franks be if their kingdom didn't shatter into pieces every generation?​

Theodoric the Great, a smart lad with a bright future​

The Cybelian priesthood is now properly eunuchs!​

Fun Fact: Cranial Deformation was practiced by the Huns. I tried to get a sense of how to implement it in portraiture, but it's a steep learning curve so that won't be in Alpha. At least Khingila looks properly funny without hair or a crown.​

That's all for now!

 

[mrstevehazzard]

Oh wow, I've been away from the forums for a bit and I'm so happy to see this is being worked on! WtWSMS was my absolute favorite mod in CK2 and I can't wait to recreate my Arian Vandalic Rome in CK3!

 

[Duarte]

I have some concerns about adding a faith for a single county that is likely to be converted before AD 500; additionally, there's counter arguments against the Sabians of Harran being Hemertics; [1] goes into some extensive detail of the paucity of evidence for Harran being Hermetic and instead arguing it was Hellenized Semetic Paganism with an emphasis on Astrology/the stars.

I'll consider your arguments, but at this point, I'm trying to avoid adding anything "new" to Alpha and focusing on completing our current feature goals.

[1] - https://academic.oup.com/book/26886/chapter-abstract/195944987?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

I'm aware of that, hence why the suggestion was more related to hermetism as boarder religious thing, rather then anything harran specific, i'll admit the suggestion was me sort of jumping the gun, in part because i always veiwd the ck2 version of the mod as one of the few mods that actually encapsulated the sheer vareity and scope of late classical religions and cults, and it always struck me has odd that hermetism was not included, but in any case i understand your reservations and the whole suggestion overly ambitious to begin with.

 

[Duarte]

Fun Fact: Cranial Deformation was practiced by the Huns. I tried to get a sense of how to implement it in portraiture, but it's a steep learning curve so that won't be in Alpha. At least Khingila looks properly funny without hair or a crown.​

this does beg the question, how are you depicting the iranian huns, like the kidarites, hepthalites, alchons and so on?
a single hunas culture for all of them? or are they gonna have a seperate culture each?
also did the hepthalites used the title Khagan? I was under the impresion that while they used Yabgu, their titulature was mostly Iranian in nature.

also if it's not too much of a bother could yuo showcase the religions yuo have assigned them? i've always been massively curious about the iranian huns in general

 

[Omogoy]

The state religion of the Hephthalites was Nestorianism.

 

[IlikeTrains]

The state religion of the Hephthalites was Nestorianism.

This is a big claim. Source?

 

[Omogoy]

This is a big claim. Source?

Lord, this is a common knowledge. All books about the history of Nestorianism write about it.
In those days and until the XIV century AD, Nestorianism was the largest religion in the world, equal to Chalcedonian (that is, Catholicism + Orthodoxy).
https://www.academia.edu/398258/Nestorian_Christianity_In_Central_Asia
Christianity in Pre-Islamic Central Asia
Since the Nestorians, branded as heretics by the Western church, could not go west, they had no choice but to take their message eastward into Asia. They had already established major centres in Merv and Herat, both of which had a bishop by 424 and a metropolitan (archbishop) by 544 and 585, respectively. The first major Nestorian missionary thrust into Central Asia took place in 498. [See my comments on this story in my Church of the East article] When Shah Kavad I (488-531)13 was forced to flee from Persia to the land of the White Huns (the Hephthalites) after being deposed, he was accompanied by a Nestorian bishop, along with four priests and two laymen, who successfully evangelized the Huns. Apparently, the bishop had received a vision in which he was commanded to go to them and instruct them about the faith. These clerics were later joined by artisans, physicians and scribes who taught the Huns to write their own language, beginning a legacy of literacy work that the Nestorians carried out in different parts of Central Asia over the succeeding centuries. Some of these missionaries stayed in the area until at least 530 and, by 549, there were enough Christians amongst them that they requested the Patriarch Mar Aba I (540-552)15 to consecrate a bishop for them, although the History of Mar Aba does not mention the town where the bishop resided:
After a short time Haphtar [i.e. the Hephthalite] Khudai sent a priest as a messenger to the King of Kings [i.e. Khosrau I, shah of Persia] and the Haphtraye, who were Christians, wrote also a letter to the holy Patriarch [Mar Aba I], requesting him to ordain as bishop to all the kingdom of the Haphtraye the priest who was sent from their country. When the priest saw the King of Kings, and the latter learned the nature of the mission on which he was sent, he was astonished to hear it, and amazed at the power of Jesus, and at the fact that even the Christian Haphtraye counted the Patriarch as their head and administrator.

 

[Duarte]

Lord, this is a common knowledge. All books about the history of Nestorianism write about it.
In those days and until the XIV century AD, Nestorianism was the largest religion in the world, equal to Chalcedonian (that is, Catholicism + Orthodoxy).
https://www.academia.edu/398258/Nestorian_Christianity_In_Central_Asia
Christianity in Pre-Islamic Central Asia
Since the Nestorians, branded as heretics by the Western church, could not go west, they had no choice but to take their message eastward into Asia. They had already established major centres in Merv and Herat, both of which had a bishop by 424 and a metropolitan (archbishop) by 544 and 585, respectively. The first major Nestorian missionary thrust into Central Asia took place in 498. [See my comments on this story in my Church of the East article] When Shah Kavad I (488-531)13 was forced to flee from Persia to the land of the White Huns (the Hephthalites) after being deposed, he was accompanied by a Nestorian bishop, along with four priests and two laymen, who successfully evangelized the Huns. Apparently, the bishop had received a vision in which he was commanded to go to them and instruct them about the faith. These clerics were later joined by artisans, physicians and scribes who taught the Huns to write their own language, beginning a legacy of literacy work that the Nestorians carried out in different parts of Central Asia over the succeeding centuries. Some of these missionaries stayed in the area until at least 530 and, by 549, there were enough Christians amongst them that they requested the Patriarch Mar Aba I (540-552)15 to consecrate a bishop for them, although the History of Mar Aba does not mention the town where the bishop resided:
After a short time Haphtar [i.e. the Hephthalite] Khudai sent a priest as a messenger to the King of Kings [i.e. Khosrau I, shah of Persia] and the Haphtraye, who were Christians, wrote also a letter to the holy Patriarch [Mar Aba I], requesting him to ordain as bishop to all the kingdom of the Haphtraye the priest who was sent from their country. When the priest saw the King of Kings, and the latter learned the nature of the mission on which he was sent, he was astonished to hear it, and amazed at the power of Jesus, and at the fact that even the Christian Haphtraye counted the Patriarch as their head and administrator.

no one is doubting the that nestorianism at it hight was widespread or that the hepthalites had nestorians in it, or even that a significant number of hepthalites converted to nestorianism, but the excerpt you posted does not prove that, it merely, at best states that an individual ruler converted to nestorianism, not that the hepthalite state as a whole had adopted Nestorianism, indeed had that been the case, it would show on their coinage or really any any mention to that fact, indeed most accounts of hepthalite religion point towards a highly syncretic paganism, at least earlier on.

 

[Omogoy]

no one is doubting the that nestorianism at it hight was widespread or that the hepthalites had nestorians in it, or even that a significant number of hepthalites converted to nestorianism, but the excerpt you posted does not prove that, it merely, at best states that an individual ruler converted to nestorianism, not that the hepthalite state as a whole had adopted Nestorianism, indeed had that been the case, it would show on their coinage or really any any mention to that fact, indeed most accounts of hepthalite religion point towards a highly syncretic paganism, at least earlier on.

For example, there are reports from an Armenian historian that the Armenians turned to the Hephthalites in the fight against the Sassanids, and at the same time they noted that they should help the Armenians in this fight, since they are brothers in faith, that is, Christians.

 

[KanadeSomeone]

I hope Manicheanism gets its deserved love for this mod.

 

[loup99]

Alpha 0.1

Important: We are pleased to share with you the first official release of WtWSMS for CK3. As you will see this is an alpha build which remains in development. We have made the choice of sharing it with you to get a maximum of feedback while advancing towards a stable beta.

Download:

STEAM WORKSHOP

PARADOX MODS

MANUAL (see attached file)

Compatibility: CK3 Vanilla 1.6.x
Checksum: (to be determined)

Changelog:
0.1

Spoiler: Changelog

- Playable 476 bookmark
- Fully covered map with title history
- Ported functional religions
- Entirely ported cultures
- De jure spanning across the map
- Ported character history
- Ported governments with adapted vassal contacts
- Reworked terrain for 476
- Key CBs, like Migration and Roman Reconquest
- Review of existing vanilla content, including character and heresy spawns

Installation:
Steam Workshop
1. Go to the WtWSMS workshop page: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2858562094
2. Click "Subscribe"
3. Launch CK3
4. Wait for mod download to complete in Steam client
5. Select the mod "WtWSMS" in the Mod tab
6. Play!

Paradox Mods
1. Go to the WtWSMS Paradox Mods page: https://mods.paradoxplaza.com/mods/49737/
2. Click "Add" and select the appropriate playset
3. Launch CK3
4. Wait for mod download to complete in the launcher
5. Select the mod "WtWSMS" in the Mod tab
6. Play!

Manual
1. Remove any WTWSMS mod folders and .mod files inside Documents\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings III\mod
2. Clear your gfx cache, by deleting the folder Documents\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings III\IWTWSMS\gfx
3. Extract the downloaded archive
4. Enter in the first folder of the extracted file and transfer it's content to Documents\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings III\mod
5. Launch CK3
6. Select the mod "WtWSMS" in the Mod tab
7. Play!

Credits: This release was brought to you by the WtWSMS team. Others contributed too, and we want to thank all of those that tried to help us in any way! Full credits can be found in the second post.

 

[LT-Rascek]

I'm aware of that, hence why the suggestion was more related to hermetism as boarder religious thing, rather then anything harran specific, i'll admit the suggestion was me sort of jumping the gun, in part because i always veiwd the ck2 version of the mod as one of the few mods that actually encapsulated the sheer vareity and scope of late classical religions and cults, and it always struck me has odd that hermetism was not included, but in any case i understand your reservations and the whole suggestion overly ambitious to begin with.

It's something I'll have to consider in more detail for later development; right now the Sabians are the ones who inhabit Harran. We'll be re-reviewing such decisions as development continues. But for 0.1.0 I think it suffices. Thanks for giving me something to consider.

this does beg the question, how are you depicting the iranian huns, like the kidarites, hepthalites, alchons and so on?
a single hunas culture for all of them? or are they gonna have a seperate culture each?
also did the hepthalites used the title Khagan? I was under the impresion that while they used Yabgu, their titulature was mostly Iranian in nature.

also if it's not too much of a bother could yuo showcase the religions yuo have assigned them? i've always been massively curious about the iranian huns in general

First, because I'm a pedant and prescriptivist about that turn of phrase, it is "Raises the Question". Begging the Question is a form of circular argument. Anyway, sorry for the derail; misuse of that phrase is fingernails on the chalkboard for me.

It's a single Hunas culture; so far on my reading and based on what descriptions I can find, the various Iranian Huns appeared to be the same culturally within CK3 terms (although the notion of a culture and what divides them can be a fuzzy one, I admit). Some of the other differences, such as the polyandry the Hephtalites practiced, seem to be better reflected via CK3 religious sentiments (which is where the Hepthalites seemed to diverge the most strongly from the Alchons and Kidarites. On the other hand, perhaps the Hepthalites were more of a multi-centric admixture than the Alchons & Kidarites and should be more distinct? Something to think about.

But for now, it's a single Hunas, Turkic Heritage & Bactrian Speaking culture, but that's certainly not final by any means.

As for showcasing, you can download the mod to see .

For example, there are reports from an Armenian historian that the Armenians turned to the Hephthalites in the fight against the Sassanids, and at the same time they noted that they should help the Armenians in this fight, since they are brothers in faith, that is, Christians.

Which historian?

I hope Manicheanism gets its deserved love for this mod.

In due time. They are little behind others in priority for now, but I hope to eventually give everything a deep review.

 

[Omogoy]

Which historian?

Eghishehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elishe. He calls the Hephthalites Hons

On the joint struggle of Armenians and Hephthalites against the Persianshttps://antiquitiesdrev.ucoz.ru/_ld/0/4_L_Ter_MKRTICCAN.pdf
Chapter three. On the unanimity of the holy community of the church “Then they (Armenian troops. - L.T.) went to the gates of Hon, which the Persians took possession of by force, took and destroyed the gates and killed the troops that were located inside, and entrusted the gates to the authorities of Vahan, who was from the kind of kings of Albania. And in these of all the valiant / deeds / decisively none of them fell wounded, except for one blessed one, who died heroically in a great battle. And here the same man who was entrusted with this gate was sent as an ambassador to the country of the Hons and to many other tribes of barbarians who were allies of the country of the Hons, in order to negotiate with them and conclude an agreement - to establish an indestructible alliance. And those, when they heard all this, hastily, without delay, arrived at the place and became eyewitnesses of the victorious deeds. And they did not hesitate at all to enter into an oath agreement according to the rites of their laws, they accepted the oath of Christians - with firmly maintain unity with them.

 

[KanadeSomeone]

Is this actually compatible with the converter?

 

[loup99]

Is this actually compatible with the converter?

No, the mod is not compatible with any other mods, sorry. If they are interested in compatibility they have to provide a specific compatch since we are a total conversion.

 

[Idhrendur]

Is this actually compatible with the converter?

No, the mod is not compatible with any other mods, sorry. If they are interested in compatibility they have to provide a specific compatch since we are a total conversion.

I believe the Imperator to CK3 lead us working on a compact. You'll need to watch the converter thread for updates though.

 

[Wisman3]

There is an issue with the Xbox Game Pass version of the game, there is no option to select the 476 start date, only the vanilla 867 and 1066 start dates and all of the characters are of the Akom religion and Akan culture as single counties.