New critical system is utter garbage

[Gilmund]

Can you be more precise..what do you hate the most? -_-'
And what do you suggest then?

In fact I disagree, not that I think it's excellent right now, but I think it's a good idea to have various crits happening.
I mean..tank/vehicle crews had to deal with various issues in real life, so having a bit of luck factor is OK for me.

It's good but not in its current form.

Penetrations do depend on AP vs AV. However after your dice result = penetration, you get another dice roll with a chance to get various effects. Pre patch it used to be 75% for a kill, 10% for Transmission dmg, 5% for Bailed out, 5% Weapon damaged, 5% Tracks broken and these are only for front penetrations. If the target got penetrated from the sides or rear the odds were slightly different.

After the patch, my impression is they haven't added a new "layer" of dice roll, imo they just put more crits to the table, so the relative chance of landing a kill shot is lower. Not only that, but also having all crits reparable makes vehicles now significantly more persistent on the battlefield.

Another thing is that they might have also changed the "chance to penetrate" table values, as I think +2, +3 AP vs AV penetration effect is much rarer now (those 9AV Cromwells seem indestructible for PAK38s).

We really need someone to dig out those new tables from the files for us to 100% see what has changed.

It's the weird part, you have an ap value telling you when you penetrate or not depending of armor value in front of you and you get +1 ap each time you get 100m closer. But the penetration value doesn't mean you penetrate anymore. When you get +2AP with your 10ap pak 38 turning it into 12AP cause you face a vehicle at 800m, you should penetrate when you hit if the vehicle has below 12 Armor. Always. Unless you miss. If the vehicle has 12 armor or more you should bounce.
You would obviously still miss a lot cause you've 5/6 accuracy on your at gun and 800m is still far, even more if you've one unvetted at gun, but once you hit you should penetrate. Why telling me it's an armor piercing value if it's not piercing.
A part of the misses could turn into pens and crits like tracking vehicles, but the pens themselves should not turn into crits except few situations (bailing out, internal damage, crew killed) makes no sense until we have buttons on at guns to choose when we want to track with nearly 100% chance of success (knowing tracks have not enough mm of armor to bounce) or when we want to shoot to penetrate.
At guns have to be better than in reality cause they slow and many decks just rely on them on start and we have to know what they are able to hit and kill or not just looking at their AP value and the armor of enemy vehicle.

 

[RoyalColor]

It's the weird part, you have an ap value telling you when you penetrate or not depending of armor value in front of you and you get +1 ap each time you get 100m closer. But the penetration value doesn't mean you penetrate anymore. When you get +2AP with your 10ap pak 38 turning it into 12AP cause you face a vehicle at 800m, you should penetrate when you hit if the vehicle has below 12 Armor. Always. Unless you miss. If the vehicle has 12 armor or more you should bounce.

Yeah, but it's not how the system works. PAK38 with AP10 vs Stuart with AV5, at max range, translated into merely 58.33% chances to get "penetration" result upon landing accurate shot pre-patch.

PAK38 AP10 vs RAM AV12, had 0% to get "penetration" result and was a "bounce". After Bounce result there was another dice roll with 70% odds for no effect, or 5% for 12 different non lethal, time duration crits (couldn't move, couldn't shoot, couldn't rotate turret etc)

This is how it used to be pre patch, can't tell how the ratios look now.

I do realize that competitive folks would like to have the least amount of RNG possible and when AP10 shoots at AV9, that should always be a kill. However I think this (pre-patch) was quite realistic system for an arcade level game imo, coz in real world there is always room for some weird stuff happening.

That said, with seeing how tough vehicles have become to deal with AT guns now, I must say I liked the old system better. I don't mind more crits for flavor, but penetration chance and kill chance upon penetration, should stay the same as they were.

 

[Qitbuqa]

He probably hates that a Panzerschreck crits and gets killed in return.
He probably hatest that a AT-gun crits and gets killed in return.
He probably hates that a Henschel 129 which cost 200 points crits two times (!)...and gets killed in return.

This! I feel that Luftlande was destoryed in 1v1 ranked setting with the way this new crit system affected Duck B3 and Panzerschreck - I mean the whole point of these weapons is either to buy extremely expensive, slow flying and even slower reloading coutner to tank push, or to come close with huge risk to the unit in question for a sure kill.

 

[Gilmund]

Yeah, but it's not how the system works. PAK38 with AP10 vs Stuart with AV5, at max range, translated into merely 58.33% chances to get "penetration" result upon landing accurate shot pre-patch.

PAK38 AP10 vs RAM AV12, had 0% to get "penetration" result and was a "bounce". After Bounce result there was another dice roll with 70% odds for no effect, or 5% for 12 different non lethal, time duration crits (couldn't move, couldn't shoot, couldn't rotate turret etc)

This is how it used to be pre patch, can't tell how the ratios look now.

I do realize that competitive folks would like to have the least amount of RNG possible and when AP10 shoots at AV9, that should always be a kill. However I think this (pre-patch) was quite realistic system for an arcade level game imo, coz in real world there is always room for some weird stuff happening.

That said, with seeing how tough vehicles have become to deal with AT guns now, I must say I liked the old system better. I don't mind more crits for flavor, but penetration chance and kill chance upon penetration, should stay the same as they were.

Ok was not perfect and without randomness but i agree it did work I was fine with it cause it did tend to kill most of the time. 60% is more than one of two times and even an unvetted pak had the time to shoot twice if only under the fire of one vehicle. In most cases, you did got your 60% chance to kill if not the first time the second.
Funny things happening with rng was the exception in the game. Obviously it has changed.
Late night again, i had a point blank 3rd armored 8 (?) accuracy bazooka (not a piat) missing against a little support vehicle. Point blank shot, the vehicle was touching and going along the treeline to reveal my inf. It makes no sense. It creates stuff hapenning i've never seen before in the game. You should instantly loose a vehicle to a bazooka when you dare touch a treeline.
For example, that was the whole point of panzergrenadiers from Lehr in A phase, never a miss, you are popped when you meet them.

 

[clabinsky1]

You should instantly loose a vehicle to a bazooka when you dare touch a treeline.

Not sure I agree here Gilmund unless we're talking <50m, where hit chance should be >=95%. I've used this type of weapon myself (modern) and there's always a small chance you'll miss. Speed of the vehicle is crucial as well but there's never a 100% chance. You could have a knucklehead using the weapon or someone under stress... I like the fact that there's never a guarantee for a hit, but I also think that AT squads and AT guns are under powered with the new patch.

 

[Gilmund]

Not sure I agree here Gilmund unless we're talking <50m, where hit chance should be >=95%. I've used this type of weapon myself (modern) and there's always a small chance you'll miss. Speed of the vehicle is crucial as well but there's never a 100% chance. You could have a knucklehead using the weapon or someone under stress... I like the fact that there's never a guarantee for a hit, but I also think that AT squads and AT guns are under powered with the new patch.

I checked. It was one armored rifle with a 7 accuracy 66mm bazooka firing at a 4 armor command SPW 232 from 116th going sideways towards me in the 200m bubble, the bazooka fired once at 100m with a 200m weapon. So the unit was giving its side armor of 2AV to me. No stress at that time, off course i lost the unit in no time just after.
I can take there is no pure guarantee but i'm not firing at the end of the range.
Used another one in the same game and did get two directs hits at 200m, one crit and one shot to kill one beute sherman with 10 armor. And this one was under stress for the second shot.
I guess there is some rng in the process but come on, are SPW 232 too little for me to shoot at ?

 

[Herr_Robert]

Actually, what is wrong with the 4AD? I think that the Scotts are way more overpowered.

4AD is solid all-around and is the strongest division by far in phase A. The main problem is that the Germans have few good divisions for 1v1 games compared to the Allies, and of those, only 3FJ can handle the B-26 Marauder effectively in phase A. But it is up to the devs to solve the balance of the game, so you should definately keep playing 4AD if you like it. In fact, more players should start playing 4AD, because I think that's the only way to bring attention to its problems (I have only faced 4AD about 5 times when I have played ranked 1v1 as the Germans).

 

[Bersercker]

Maybe it would make sense if the crit tables were modified by AP?
Like some stuart gunner knows that no way he is gonna penetrate that tiger's turret, so he tries to hit the tracks. But he is pretty sure that he is gonna destory that half-track with one shot to the center of mass.

So something like: if AP is much greater than AV then the shooter gets bonus accuracy, more chance to kill, less chace to crit.

Or for the opposite case: if the AP is almost the same as AV (like penetration chance is <10% or 20% or something) the shooter gets zero cnace to kill, but increased chance to crit and decreased accuracy. Might need to also give bonus AP if the accuracy is greater than some value so that killing immobilized panicked vehicle would be possible even with low penetration chance. Thats probably way too complicated though.

I would have preferred the wargame system ofc where most vehicles had 10 hp, and each penetrating shot damage depended on by how much the AP is greater than AV but i doubt thats gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[ICQUACQUA]

I haver never lost a single game vs. a heavy tank division.

According to what ive seen from you on bois de limors (100% inf map) draw game against me (i dont even play this game tbh, so shouldve been easy to win for you), i find this statement very unlikely, lol.

 

[Warzkinsoto]

Well this new system make me and some my friends mad because AT guns are pointless in many situations, they need 2-4 shoot even when they got 100/100 on hit and penetration. Also those small tanks like L6 or pzII now can micro churchils or sherman with those critics its very funny .
Im not saying that all changes are bad, maybe it just time for some new tactics but now game get me far more nerves than before.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Ok was not perfect and without randomness but i agree it did work I was fine with it cause it did tend to kill most of the time. 60% is more than one of two times and even an unvetted pak had the time to shoot twice if only under the fire of one vehicle. In most cases, you did got your 60% chance to kill if not the first time the second.
Funny things happening with rng was the exception in the game. Obviously it has changed.
Late night again, i had a point blank 3rd armored 8 (?) accuracy bazooka (not a piat) missing against a little support vehicle. Point blank shot, the vehicle was touching and going along the treeline to reveal my inf. It makes no sense. It creates stuff hapenning i've never seen before in the game. You should instantly loose a vehicle to a bazooka when you dare touch a treeline.
For example, that was the whole point of panzergrenadiers from Lehr in A phase, never a miss, you are popped when you meet them.

I ran a couple of skirmish games to specifically look at the AT gun thing, and you are right...the 'ambush' value of AT guns has gone out the window. What this does now is provide a serious advantage to the cluster tactic for tanks - 3 or 4 inside the command radius of a leader unit, using the 'Q' (move and fire) command...throw in a close support/HE vehicle, and you can walk across the map. It lessens the need for recce, to some extent.

 

[Gilmund]

I ran a couple of skirmish games to specifically look at the AT gun thing, and you are right...the 'ambush' value of AT guns has gone out the window. What this does now is provide a serious advantage to the cluster tactic for tanks - 3 or 4 inside the command radius of a leader unit, using the 'Q' (move and fire) command...throw in a close support/HE vehicle, and you can walk across the map. It lessens the need for recce, to some extent.

It is particularly obvious with unvetted and light at's. Two star 17 pounders do suffer less from the change.

 

[Leenday]

Why is this thread dead? New crit system is still garbage, daily reminder. Every unit with armor from scoutcars to tanks now absorbs ridiculous amounts of damage, so why bother bringing AT, right...

 

[Alex646]

This thread is dead coz whole forums are pretty dead. It's very sad that we didn't get any response from devs.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

I'd say that they are pretty aware of the views on the forums, they go over these threads regularly throughout the day (and night, after work), and the ones I know are regularly in the game.

The thing about feed back is that for us we see 'the problem', from our perspective...for the devs 'the problem' is only one component of an overall structure of components, and until they can develop a holistic fix to 'our problem', which doesn't create other issues or introduce an unwanted side effect meta, they can't really say much either way. The evidence of this approach is that every significant mechanic change or patch introduces a new meta, which we have seen throughout WG and now SD. They can't simply roll some aspects back without significant other problems coming up, so they have to do a fair amount of groundwork before they can actually engage with us with any confidence of what direction they are taking.

 

[Edgars]

This thread is dead coz whole forums are pretty dead. It's very sad that we didn't get any response from devs.

What response are you waiting for? If you read Steam forums, then you should know, that in their opinion players already have spoken and that's it - we are just spoiled, crying minority who can't appreciate the wonderful new game mechanic that they have gifted to us!
The actual question is who voted Yes for these changes? How much hours they have spent playing this game during beta (with these changes) period and overall and are they even playing it after the patch? I have a strong feeling that those Yes voters were mostly Wargame players who didn't liked Steel Division in the first place and are hoping that it fail and Eugene will finally move on and make Wargame 4 just because these changes made SD44 closer to Wargame or completely new players (considering that for more than two months straight this game was on sale for 50% off) who wasn't familiar with game mechanics, but found these features, in one way or another, attractive and most likely neither of these two "players" are playing this game regularly if at all right now.

 

[HallBregg]

The actual question is who voted Yes for these changes? How much hours they have spent playing this game during beta (with these changes) period and overall and are they even playing it after the patch

I for one already said, as part of the beta feedback questionare, that the new crit system was a big nerf to AT. In beta this was not as evident cos you could put At in buildings tho.

 

[Alex646]

What response are you waiting for?

'We know about this situation and working on fixes or tweaks'. Something like that at least.

The actual question is who voted Yes for these changes? How much hours they have spent playing this game during beta (with these changes) period and overall and are they even playing it after the patch? I have a strong feeling that those Yes voters were mostly Wargame players who didn't liked Steel Division

I've answered 'Yes'. I played beta around 10 hours or so. Beta was from 7th to 11th of December. Do you really think that it's real to test such big changes for 5 days???

 

[Leenday]

You know, this crit system was very misleading. I was baited too. When I saw it first, I thought "Cool, that's something new. New crits, new stuff can happen to your vehicles." And it was exciting first 2-3 games. But then I started to notice and realize that these crits chances replaced the actual kill chances! How many times do we see now a stack up of crits upon a harassed vehicle? A halftrack beaten by bazookas and AT guns can have 4 crits on top of each other and not be dead! That's a shame it was implemented in this game.

 

[Gilmund]

What response are you waiting for? If you read Steam forums, then you should know, that in their opinion players already have spoken and that's it - we are just spoiled, crying minority who can't appreciate the wonderful new game mechanic that they have gifted to us!
The actual question is who voted Yes for these changes? How much hours they have spent playing this game during beta (with these changes) period and overall and are they even playing it after the patch? I have a strong feeling that those Yes voters were mostly Wargame players who didn't liked Steel Division in the first place and are hoping that it fail and Eugene will finally move on and make Wargame 4 just because these changes made SD44 closer to Wargame or completely new players (considering that for more than two months straight this game was on sale for 50% off) who wasn't familiar with game mechanics, but found these features, in one way or another, attractive and most likely neither of these two "players" are playing this game regularly if at all right now.

The survey did proposed you to place each change on a scale from 1 to 10, by importance. And everyone loved the idea to see new crits happening in the game, me too, i like new things being developped so this change came up top. Noone could have known what was the real effect off them with a few beta days.
And imo, there is nothing wrong going on here, there is a bunch of people loving the new crit system but asking for changes cause there is something wrong happening with it, very few asked to delete it completely. I didn't myself. And imo there is no point cause Eugen will not delete it. Balance it, maybe.