No physical release

[Mr. Capiatlist]

If it means anything, here in the automotive industry, we are planning that starting in 2017 (which is next cycle for who we supply to) cars will no longer be shipped with CD players, instead only have a USB jack. So it isn't just games that are changing. And this is the automotive industry, which is pretty resistant to change.

 

[ANO1453]

I paid $2 for EU1, $10 for EU2, and $20 for V2 (that was a mistake). V2 used up my goodwill, so I almost didn't buy CK2 but then I saw it for $10. I ended up paying $13 to buy CK2 with add-ons for a gift. I am thinking about paying the full $40 for EU4. I would not be considering doing that, except that they sold me discounted games all of these years, building my interest and loyalty.

I paid 30€ (regular price) for EU3 Chronicles. I also thought about buying CK2, but I don't know if it makes my style.
I remember paying 40€ for Age of Mythology and another 40€ for Battle of Middle Earth I and 40(?)€ for Battle for Middle Earth II, but none of those gave the enjoyment Europa Universalis gave me, so I'd be willing to pay 40€ (give or take) for EUIV. Everything physical copies, of course.

 

[Assos]

As some who just tore up his home office looking for his EU3 CDs, I am very happy to NOT have a hard copy of the game!

 

[Me_]

Selling a boxed game for under 10€ is a loss. If you buy it in a bargain bin like that, you might as well download it off pirate bay.

Wow, you serious? You really don't understand the concept of cutting loses?

E.g. game costed 15 to produce - someone buys it for 10 - producer makes 10 (let's assume buying directly from the producer) so a loss of 5 (15-10=5). Someone downloads a game - producer gets 0, so a loss of 15. Loss of 15 eorse than lossa of 5.

Or are you just accusing people buying at a bargain of theft?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Wow, you serious? You really don't understand the concept of cutting loses?

E.g. game costed 15 to produce - someone buys it for 10 - producer makes 10 (let's assume buying directly from the producer) so a loss of 5 (15-10=5). Someone downloads a game - producer gets 0, so a loss of 15. Loss of 15 eorse than lossa of 5.

Or are you just accusing people buying at a bargain of theft?

Well, they sell a game in a bargain bin for $15, the store takes their $14.5 and Paradox gets their $0.5. Middlemen are jerks. Cut them all out.

IIRC music artists make like $0.23 off every CD sold.

 

[SirGrotius]

I just built a new computer. I bought a Blue Ray Drive because I thought it was cool. Used it one time to install a hard copy of Windows, the rest of the time it's basically a $150 blue light.

 

[Me_]

Well, they sell a game in a bargain bin for $15, the store takes their $14.5 and Paradox gets their $0.5. Middlemen are jerks. Cut them all out.

IIRC music artists make like $0.23 off every CD sold.

You do realise you completely ignore the actuall point just to be nitpicky, right. The point was cutting down loses (which is main reason for physical release bargains) vs. theft. Just in case you're actually unable to understand that here's a different version. Same point:

E.g. shop bought a game for 15 - someone buys it for 10 - shop makes 10 so a loss of 5 (15-10=5). Someone downloads a game - shop gets 0, so a loss of 15. Loss of 15 worse than loss of 5.

And the comparison to music artist could only make sense if Paradox was the developer but not a publisher. Music artists are like developers of their songs, not their producers.

 

[fenwayb]

Selling a boxed game for under 10€ is a loss. If you buy it in a bargain bin like that, you might as well download it off pirate bay.

That's a little harsh...You're talking about a product that you've already spent the money to make, so getting anything back on it is better than having it pirated. Especially considering that if they got it at that price, it's likely been out for a while, which means that someone who buys the game might go and shell out money on the DLC/expansions, which a pirate probably wouldn't do (because they'd probably pirate them as well).

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

You do realise you completely ignore the actuall point just to be nitpicky, right. The point was cutting down loses (which is main reason for physical release bargains) vs. theft. Just in case you're actually unable to understand that here's a different version. Same point:

E.g. shop bought a game for 15 - someone buys it for 10 - shop makes 10 so a loss of 5 (15-10=5). Someone downloads a game - shop gets 0, so a loss of 15. Loss of 15 worse than loss of 5.

Yeah, but we don't care about the shop. And I don't care about having a CD. What I do know is that every step you put between a consumer and the producer lowers the amount the producer makes and increases what the consumer pays. So there is your basic economics.

Plus here in the States I don't need my hands to count the number of places I've actually found physical copies of Paradox games; I can just use my nose. Steam and Gamersgate makes it easier to get games out to more people, which is better for business.

 

[Franconian]

You do realise you completely ignore the actuall point just to be nitpicky, right. The point was cutting down loses (which is main reason for physical release bargains) vs. theft. Just in case you're actually unable to understand that here's a different version. Same point:

E.g. shop bought a game for 15 - someone buys it for 10 - shop makes 10 so a loss of 5 (15-10=5). Someone downloads a game - shop gets 0, so a loss of 15. Loss of 15 worse than loss of 5.

And the comparison to music artist could only make sense if Paradox was the developer but not a publisher. Music artists are like developers of their songs, not their producers.

You can (and should) it also see differently:

Someone buys the bargain for 15, the shop takes 10 = Paradox did actually lose 5

Someone pirates it: Paradox COULD have sold it for 15 - but it DID lose 0.

 

[Me_]

You can (and should) it also see differently:

Someone buys the bargain for 15, the shop takes 10 = Paradox did actually lose 5

Someone pirates it: Paradox COULD have sold it for 15 - but it DID lose 0.

This kind of thinking leads to bankrupcies kids. That's why most companies don't make it throug their first year. If you were a lawyer, economist or able to understand the concept of loss in abstract sense rather than physical one you'd realise that being prevented from making a profit is a loss just as well as actually having money taken away from you.

You obviously fail to grasp the concept of a self-contained example so let me spell it for you:

Producer makes a game (are you with me still?) he/she makes a cost. Now a physical copy of the game exist. The producer must take this decision without knowing whether or not the game will sell (in your example the producer knows the future - if you think for a secon you should be able to grasp why).

Now either someone buys it (loss of 5) or not. Whether the guy stole the game digitally or not makes no difference but the loss of 15 exist. The difference is only in moral aspect i.e. bargain-buyer is equaled with a thief.

Yeah, but we don't care about the shop. And I don't care about having a CD. What I do know is that every step you put between a consumer and the producer lowers the amount the producer makes and increases what the consumer pays. So there is your basic economics.

Plus here in the States I don't need my hands to count the number of places I've actually found physical copies of Paradox games; I can just use my nose. Steam and Gamersgate makes it easier to get games out to more people, which is better for business.

And what does that have to do with calling bargain-buyers thiefs? Or is that a prelude to calling physical-copy-buyers thiefs as well?

That's a little harsh...You're talking about a product that you've already spent the money to make, so getting anything back on it is better than having it pirated. Especially considering that if they got it at that price, it's likely been out for a while, which means that someone who buys the game might go and shell out money on the DLC/expansions, which a pirate probably wouldn't do (because they'd probably pirate them as well).

Thank you for being a sensible person.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

And what does that have to do with calling bargain-buyers thiefs? Or is that a prelude to calling physical-copy-buyers thiefs as well?

I don't think he is calling them thieves, he's saying that from the stand-point of the company that they make about as much profit off a bargain-bin sale as they do from a pirate. And since piracy is bad (and don't forget it) for the company, so is selling physical copies.

 

[Me_]

I don't think he is calling them thieves, he's saying that from the stand-point of the company that they make about as much profit off a bargain-bin sale as they do from a pirate. And since piracy is bad (and don't forget it) for the company, so is selling physical copies.

You really think I'd insist on calling it what it is - theft - rather than using the meaningles euphemism of piracy if I didn't underdstand that piracy is bad?
But piracy (theft actually) and cutting loses is not the same.

And don't even get me started on the lie that games sold under 10 euro don't pay for themselves. Most games where I live sell under 10 euro. Physical copies.

 

[fenwayb]

This kind of thinking leads to bankrupcies kids. That's why most companies don't make it throug their first year.

You obviously fail to grasp the concept of a self-contained example so let me spell it for you:

Producer makes a game (are you with me still?) he/she makes a cost. Now a physical copy of the game exist. The producer must take this decision without knowing whether or not the game will sell (in your example the producer knows the future - if you think for a secon you should be able to grasp why).

Now either someone buys it (loss of 5) or not. Whether the guy stole the game digitally or not makes no difference but the loss of 15 exist. The difference is only in moral aspect i.e. bargain-buyer is equaled with a thief.



And what does that have to do with calling bargain-buyers thiefs? Or is that a prelude to calling physical-copy-buyers thiefs as well?



Thank you for being a sensible person.

well, I can understand why Paradox wouldn't really care if the store sells it or not; The store buys the games from them, and then it becomes the store's prerogative to sell them. They've already made their money once the game is out of their hands (correct me if I'm wrong). That doesn't, however, mean that it's okay to claim that buying off the bargain bin is worse than pirating.

 

[Franconian]

Let me spell it for you:

Johann said that producing digital copies is much cheaper than physical copies and even pirating of such a digital copy is better than selling a physical copy for 10€.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

You really think I'd insist on calling it what it is - theft - rather than using the meaningles euphemism of piracy if I didn't underdstand that piracy is bad?
But piracy (theft actually) and cutting loses is not the same.

Because I feel you think he is attacking the consumer (calling them thieves), but I feel in reality he is not happy with the middle-man system. I know for a fact that Paradox does hold no ill-will toward consumers who legally acquire their products.

 

[fenwayb]

Because I feel you think he is attacking the consumer (calling them thieves), but I feel in reality he is not happy with the middle-man system. I know for a fact that Paradox does hold no ill-will toward consumers who legally acquire their products.

well, more likely than not, he didn't mean to come off that way, but he most certainly did. That comment wasn't aimed at the big game distributors, it was aimed at the fans.

 

[Me_]

Because I feel you think he is attacking the consumer (calling them thieves), but I feel in reality he is not happy with the middle-man system. I know for a fact that Paradox does hold no ill-will toward consumers who legally acquire their products.

Well they could certainly improve in the way they inform their consumers of this. That's for sure.

 

[unmerged(431840)]

Selling a boxed game for under 10€ is a loss. If you buy it in a bargain bin like that, you might as well download it off pirate bay.

Yes, but it is a loss that you should take. Making the first few products in a series takes a lot of skill and luck. Then you get into a place where you have to start working to shape your customer base. You need to make sure that the product doesn't become too inbred (by listening to people on the forums too much) and you also need to make sure that it doesn't become too generic (by trying to appeal to everyone and ignoring your core customers). I'm sure that you realize this, judging from the game play that I see with CK2, that is both deep and accessible. I'm suggesting that you use your older games as marketing for your newer games to get new customers to replace the ones that you lose (people become too busy, or die, or lose interest)

Also the games that I listed were profitable for Paradox, all except my $2 purchase of EU1. When I bought EU2 it was at a discount, but not bargain bin. This was back when $20 was worth something. EU3, V2, and both of my CK2 purchases were digital downloads so the marginal cost per copy was close to $0, plus whatever percentage the reseller took.

 

[minispace]

So long as I can continue to get my Paradox games off GamersGate (where I can actually, you know, own the game rather than 'renting' it and having to be connected 24/7 like Steam) then I'll be pleased.

Are you sure you own anything on Gamersgate? Their installer phones home before you can install a game, and there's this:

From Gamersgate Terms of Service

12. Termination
These Terms of Use are effective until terminated. You agree that GamersGate may terminate your log in access to the Website, including your user name and password, at any time for any reason without prior notice or liability. GamersGate may change, suspend, or discontinue all or any aspect of the Website at any time, including the availability of any feature, without prior notice or liability.

Steam and Gamersgate are pretty much equivalent when it comes to Paradox, because you don't even really need to use the Steam Launcher to play Paradox games.