No tribals?

[Ols]

To me, it isn't a minor thing. It is a major inaccuracy that diminishes my ability to fully enjoy the mod. I'm not "cutting off my nose to spite my face." I'm choosing to play something else, which I will fully enjoy, until the things that I don't like are addressed. If they are never addressed, then i will just keep finding other games to enjoy, without any irritating idiosyncrasies.

Still, I really look forward to playing this mod as I think CK2 is the perfect platform to represent this world in a strategy game. I'll just wait until tribal governments are added in to better fully represent the varied and interesting setting.

I can send you a submod to change them to tribal, if you want. The only issue would be retaining unusual gfx if you conquer the entire Seven Kingdoms, as moving capital doesn't change your government type in the mod. I'll do a quick check to see if I can rectify that issue. I can also add changes that make Skagos and the Hill Clansmen tribal, if you wish.

If you name other places with unusual or unsuitable government types then I can do something about them as well, and send you the result.

 

[blackninja9939]

To me, it isn't a minor thing. It is a major inaccuracy that diminishes my ability to fully enjoy the mod. I'm not "cutting off my nose to spite my face." I'm choosing to play something else, which I will fully enjoy, until the things that I don't like are addressed. If they are never addressed, then i will just keep finding other games to enjoy, without any irritating idiosyncrasies.

Still, I really look forward to playing this mod as I think CK2 is the perfect platform to represent this world in a strategy game. I'll just wait until tribal governments are added in to better fully represent the varied and interesting setting.

Is it really that major of a thing that their government type says feudal instead of tribal? I could understand if it was some game breaking thing like the King of the Iron Throne being a theocracy but this is more just a minor little detail that is really not that major of an inaccuracy to make you fully never ever play the mod again, I just don't personally see how it could put you off every playing the mod. If you want to never play it again until that is changed then sure but it seems like a bit of an overreaction to me

 

[Ols]

Is it really that major of a thing that their government type says feudal instead of tribal? I could understand if it was some game breaking thing like the King of the Iron Throne being a theocracy but this is more just a minor little detail that is really not that major of an inaccuracy to make you fully never ever play the mod again. If you want to then sure but it seems like a bit of an overreaction to me

It has a lot to do with how the tribal mechanics are essentially a stereotyped and romanticised view of tribalism, just like the Wildlings are. So they fit together perfectly. The same applies to the Dothraki - the nomad mechanics perfectly allow for the Khalasar to move around and to be made up of other Kos who can break away or take over on the death of the Khal. It's as if Paradox made their mechanics for this mod before they thought about the real world. Declining to include tribalism just seems like a wasted opportunity.

There are other interesting opportunities, such as making pirate government into a modified version of tribal. That prevents them calling vassal levies and allows you to reuse the tribal holding to represent a boat or pirate port for them. This works better for the Corsairs I think, because they sound like tribal pirates. Lhazaar could also potentially use a modified government type to represent how they all lived peacefully in countryside villages.

 

[blackninja9939]

It has a lot to do with how the tribal mechanics are essentially a stereotyped and romanticised view of tribalism, just like the Wildlings are. So they fit together perfectly. The same applies to the Dothraki - the nomad mechanics perfectly allow for the Khalasar to move around and to be made up of other Kos who can break away or take over on the death of the Khal. It's as if Paradox made their mechanics for this mod before they thought about the real world. Declining to include tribalism just seems like a wasted opportunity.

I can understand that, I can fully understand disagreeing with the current implementation of the willdings but I cannot understand how that one thing which affects a relatively small area would cause someone to completely stop playing the mod

 

[Ols]

I can understand that, I can fully understand disagreeing with the current implementation of the willdings but I cannot understand how that one thing which affects a relatively small area would cause someone to completely stop playing the mod

If you're playing near a culture or mechanic you don't like, it can reduce the enjoyment a bit. I personally found it a bit dull to play near the Dothraki before they were proper nomads, since they didn't behave in a way I thought fitted the canon. That probably meant that I played less than I would have, since I preferred to wait for them to be updated.

 

[blackninja9939]

If you're playing near a culture or mechanic you don't like, it can reduce the enjoyment a bit. I personally found it a bit dull to play near the Dothraki before they were proper nomads, since they didn't behave in a way I thought fitted the canon. That probably meant that I played less than I would have, since I preferred to wait for them to be updated.

Again I can understand not wanting to play them if they do not fit your view but that really would not ruin the entire mod surely?

 

[dherve10]

I can send you a submod to change them to tribal, if you want. The only issue would be retaining unusual gfx if you conquer the entire Seven Kingdoms, as moving capital doesn't change your government type in the mod. I'll do a quick check to see if I can rectify that issue. I can also add changes that make Skagos and the Hill Clansmen tribal, if you wish.

If you name other places with unusual or unsuitable government types then I can do something about them as well, and send you the result.

Can you post such a submod in the AGOT submods area, perchance?

 

[Ols]

Can you post such a submod in the AGOT submods area, perchance?

I'll look into it when I'm confident it works properly, yes.

Again I can understand not wanting to play them if they do not fit your view but that really would not ruin the entire mod surely?

Not the entire mod, but if you disagree with the way the Wildlings work it would make it dull to play in the North, or if you disagree with the Dothraki it might be less fun to play as the Free Cities. So it leaves some players only seriously playing one area and then getting bored.

 

[blackninja9939]

Not the entire mod, but if you disagree with the way the Wildlings work it would make it dull to play in the North, or if you disagree with the Dothraki it might be less fun to play as the Free Cities. So it leaves some players only seriously playing one area and then getting bored.

Except he said that he (and yes I assume he due to instant internet bias) will not play the mod at all until it gets changed

 

[Ols]

Except he said that he (and yes I assume he due to instant internet bias) will not play the mod at all until it gets changed

Maybe a bit extreme, but understandable if tribal cultures are what you find most interesting and fun. It is annoying to see something that appears "broken" somewhere else on the map.

 

[Achiles]

If you're playing near a culture or mechanic you don't like, it can reduce the enjoyment a bit. I personally found it a bit dull to play near the Dothraki before they were proper nomads, since they didn't behave in a way I thought fitted the canon. That probably meant that I played less than I would have, since I preferred to wait for them to be updated.

Basically, this. It gets dull when they feel as though they should be more dynamic. The last game that I played, my enjoyment was definitely circumscribed by the wonky way in which the Dothraki, neighbors to my huge New Valyrian empire, were portrayed.

Except he said that he (and yes I assume he due to instant internet bias) will not play the mod at all until it gets changed

There other concerns (buildingless, and thus useless, temple holdings for several religions), but the intransigence on this issue does not encourage me to think that they will get addressed anytime soon, either. (Of course the temple holdings issue might have already been addressed, in which case, bravo dev team!) Play as a grand conquering empire, and it doesn't matter which part of the map you start on, you will eventually fun into these idiosyncrasies.

I'll look into it when I'm confident it works properly, yes.

I really hope that you do this! I would definitely download it and play it. I'm not sure who else you could make tribal, besides Skagosi, freefolk, hill tribesmen(mountains of the moon tribesmen?), Denixens of Sothyros/Ulthos, and stone cow folk. Perhaps the lambmen? I don't know how much GRRM gets into their governance. I would have expected the Ibbenese, but I heard recently that in lands of Ice and Fire, he describes them as being organised much more like a merchant republic. One that trades primarily in whale parts and skins.

 

[Ols]

I really hope that you do this! I would definitely download it and play it. I'm not sure who else you could make tribal, besides Skagosi, freefolk, hill tribesmen(mountains of the moon tribesmen?), Denixens of Sothyros/Ulthos, and stone cow folk. Perhaps the lambmen? I don't know how much GRRM gets into their governance. I would have expected the Ibbenese, but I heard recently that in lands of Ice and Fire, he describes them as being organised much more like a merchant republic. One that trades primarily in whale parts and skins.

I made the Vale Clansmen tribal initially, but it doesn't make that much sense as their provinces are ruled by feudal Andals, not them directly. They can stay feudal, possibly with an event or change to make them tribal if they rebel successfully. You're pretty much right though, the only viable cultures that could use a tribal variant (because they're not described as living in cities or castles) are:

• Wildings
• Skagosi
• Clansmen
• Sothoryosi (various, possibly excluding the Naathi only).
• Lhazareen
• Some of the Farosi (not sure on this one because it's not clear whether they were properly settled)
• Thousand Islanders (only just remembered this one province culture)
• Andals of Essos (because those who remained were extremely insignificant)
• The Dothraki and Jogos, if they choose to settle (this should be possible, but heavily restricted to special circumstances and locations).

Its worth noting that you could potentially make a special republic type that uses tribal holdings only, if you wanted to show some kind of tribal democracy on the map. As stated before, the holding type does not determine which government you can program in. You could make a feudal state that uses temples as a primary holding, for example.

 

[blackninja9939]

After having just messed around briefly with the tribal gov I have remembered that I am pretty sure you need Charlemagne to play tribals, we would rather not lock them out for those without Charlemagne if avoidable which it is, might look at a compromise by having a tribal government in the feudal category

 

[Ols]

After having just messed around briefly with the tribal gov I have remembered that I am pretty sure you need Charlemagne to play tribals, we would rather not lock them out for those without Charlemagne if avoidable which it is, might look at a compromise by having a tribal government in the feudal category

I'm pretty sure you don't, that would have locked people out of features they paid for if that was so. Can you try disabling Charlemagne and loading up to see what happens? I can dig out the patch notes and dev diaries for Charlemagne later to check.

I can stick "tribal" governments in the feudal category, though. We could also look at restricting "feudal" to Westeros and having slightly different government types for monarchies in Essos for flavour purposes.

 

[blackninja9939]

I'm pretty sure you don't, that would have locked people out of features they paid for if that was so. Can you try disabling Charlemagne and loading up to see what happens? I can dig out the patch notes and dev diaries for Charlemagne later to check.

I can stick "tribal" governments in the feudal category, though. We could also look at restricting "feudal" to Westeros and having slightly different government types for monarchies in Essos for flavour purposes.

Just loaded up vanilla and they are apparently not restricted to charlemange although I could've sworn that was one of the features from the DLC, must just be my memory going lol
As for making essos versions of monarchies that would seem rather superfluous to me? As far as we know their monarchies do not function too differently from the westerosi ones and the differences that are present tend to be weird cultural ones which are accounted for in the mod

 

[Ols]

Just loaded up vanilla and they are apparently not restricted to charlemange although I could've sworn that was one of the features from the DLC, must just be my memory going lol
As for making essos versions of monarchies that would seem rather superfluous to me? As far as we know their monarchies do not function too differently from the westerosi ones and the differences that are present tend to be weird cultural ones which are accounted for in the mod

It allows us to shunt certain mechanics to the government type rather than the religion, which allows their religion to change around a bit. There are also certain things like Iqta mechanics, which can be used to create an exotic feel. Decadence is probably too weird to implement, but you can have them doing other unusual things without being stuck with one culture or faith. There are certain cultures where they don't feel quite feudal, but don't feel quite tribal either.

 

[blackninja9939]

It allows us to shunt certain mechanics to the government type rather than the religion, which allows their religion to change around a bit. There are also certain things like Iqta mechanics, which can be used to create an exotic feel. Decadence is probably too weird to implement, but you can have them doing other unusual things without being stuck with one culture or faith. There are certain cultures where they don't feel quite feudal, but don't feel quite tribal either.

But most of their things are religious or cultural beliefs not to do with their rulership and anyway for the most part people in the east do not convert anyway and have not really for a good few thousand years, same with most of westeros their religions and cultures are fairly stagnant

 

[Kripox]

Tribals are locked to the Old Gods if I remember correctly. Try to disable that one and see how it goes.

Anywhow, I'm in favor of tribal wildlings. Certain DLC are already required for Dothraki and all the merchant republics, and those make up a far larger percentage of the map than wildlings do. The government type seems to fir them very well thematically, and the current castles riddled around north of the wall honestly feel really out of place.

If you want to look into alternative moarchies like Ols suggested, might I suggest taking a look at Warhammer Geheimnisnacht? That mod uses unique, modified versiuons of feudal governments for many of the major factions. It even has unique tribal systems for Wood Elves and greenskins and a unique nomad version for beastmen. I don't know if it's anything you'd be interested, but hey, it's there.

 

[Ols]

But most of their things are religious or cultural beliefs not to do with their rulership and anyway for the most part people in the east do not convert anyway and have not really for a good few thousand years, same with most of westeros their religions and cultures are fairly stagnant

Yeah, I know. The opportunity is there for a few cultures though. I was thinking of submodding for dead or non-canon cultures like Essarians, Ifquevron or settled Dothraki, who wouldn't have a 'natural' religion for the player to pick. I'm also fond of the idea of creating 'evil' or 'autocratic' government types for placing like Asshai. There's also the prospect of creating a 'Theocracy' in the feudal group for Norvos, tribal republics, playable inland 'republics' (feudal group) and a few others. I'm not actually going to try and list everything now, because I think wider input could build a better idea.

If you want to look into alternative moarchies like Ols suggested, might I suggest taking a look at Warhammer Geheimnisnacht? That mod uses unique, modified versiuons of feudal governments for many of the major factions. It even has unique tribal systems for Wood Elves and greenskins and a unique nomad version for beastmen. I don't know if it's anything you'd be interested, but hey, it's there.

I've never played it (no knowledge of the Warhammer series) but I probably should to get more ideas. Difficult to make the case for subtly different government types without pointing to examples like those, so thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Achiles]

It allows us to shunt certain mechanics to the government type rather than the religion, which allows their religion to change around a bit. There are also certain things like Iqta mechanics, which can be used to create an exotic feel. Decadence is probably too weird to implement, but you can have them doing other unusual things without being stuck with one culture or faith. There are certain cultures where they don't feel quite feudal, but don't feel quite tribal either.

Is a version of Iqta used at all? I can't really think of any cultures that it would fit. Of course, other than the temples can be held and inherited thing, I'm not really sure what exactly differentiates Iqta from Feudal. I thought that a lot of the differences were really due to religion.