Northern Italy (attn: Archduke)

[Medicine Man]

Hola all,

I've now began work on Genoa -- once I got reading about the era the task invariably snowballed into working on just about every nation betwixt the Two Sicilies and Genoa.

The Renaissance was underway and to a large degree this was the time of great Italian cities and the talented men who lived in them. Given the rich history of the Italian Renaissance and the scores of Condotierri working in the region, I'm finding I have my hands full just trying to do Italy justice. At the very least, I'll get the ball rolling on 2-4 of the nations in north Italy.

Now, I have a question for the Archduke: Is it possible for us to consolidate some of the Italian powers a bit, AD?

It is hard putting a lot of care into the Italian minors when you know half of them are never going to survive more than 20 years -- at most -- unless managed by a human player. It's probably a vain hope, but I'd like to set up Italy so that there are two main contenders (Genoa, the Two Sicilies) and three viable-but-difficult second tier nations (Milan, Florence, the Papal States). To me, these are the most compelling of the Italian countries -- Tuscany in particular.

Here is what I'd like to do, if you'll consider it: We transfer Marche from Milan to the Papacy and merge Pisa(Sienna) into Florence. I hope to make Romanga the focus of a mid-15th century Italian war, so I'd rather leave them independent.

PS: Could it be possible to make this change to country.csv.
// Change Florence's color to dark blue
TOS;Blue;LightOrange;latin;ITA;MIN;MIN;MIN;8;1;4;8;4;4;6;7;0;X

 

[TheArchduke]

Sounds very good. The italian states should be somewhat stronger than in the normal GC..

 

[Medicine Man]

Okey dokey then. I'll whip up some new include files with the rest of my stuff, when I'm ready.

 

[TheArchduke]

Ah yes, country color changes are intended, just watch the great powers, they need distinct colors ( especially colony-wise..)

 

[TheArchduke]

Any progress?

 

[Medicine Man]

Any progress?

I'm working on leader files for Genoa, Florence(Tuscany), Milano, and the Papal States. It looks good so far, but it is slow going. Once I have leaders done, I plan on updating include files, revisiting monarchs (a small job) and then scripting a pile of events for Genoa and a modest amount for Milano, Florence and the Papacy.

Concerning Leaders:

I'm operating under the assumption that the major/second-tier powers in Italy are more cohesive(wealthy) in Abe than they were in real life. Therefore, a lot of the italian leaders who historically found employment in other countries actually have steady patrons close to home. I'm not going so far as to have all italian leaders working for their hometown, but I do have most of them in the region by default.

Another thing I'm working on is a series of events to simulate the fact that many of the italian generals were Condotierri (contractors). In the case of historical officers, this is usually accomplished by implementing a chain of employment:

For example --- Raimondo Montecuccoli is a leader for Florence by default. If Florence does not exist when he is due to begin his career, I wake him up for Milan. If Florence and Milan both do not exist, I wake him for Genoa.

Another example --- Alessandro Farnese is a default leader for Milan. If Milan is toast, he serves the Grand Duke (King?) of Savoy instead.

I'm going to keep the career path of most historical officers pretty straight forward, to avoid confusion, but I may get creative with fictional officers (of whom I'm going to need a few). If you like this idea at all, I'm hoping to extend it so that Sicily and Savoy can benefit modestly from it as well.

Events to handle the waking/sleeping of all Italian officers I'm going to put in a file called condotierri.txt. I'm aiming to have leader files and include files for northern italy and my condotierri.txt submitted on friday. Events I plan on tackling on the weekend.

I'll be in touch, Archduke. Cheers.

 

[TheArchduke]

I'm working on leader files for Genoa, Florence(Tuscany), Milano, and the Papal States. It looks good so far, but it is slow going. Once I have leaders done, I plan on updating include files, revisiting monarchs (a small job) and then scripting a pile of events for Genoa and a modest amount for Milano, Florence and the Papacy.

Sounds good.

Concerning Leaders:

I'm operating under the assumption that the major/second-tier powers in Italy are more cohesive(wealthy) in Abe than they were in real life. Therefore, a lot of the italian leaders who historically found employment in other countries actually have steady patrons close to home. I'm not going so far as to have all italian leaders working for their hometown, but I do have most of them in the region by default.

Exactly. We have two big italian states and France, Austria and Spain aren't here to crush down on any serious italian states. Italy is way more solid than in the GC. Not so Russia and France in our history.

Another thing I'm working on is a series of events to simulate the fact that many of the italian generals were Condotierri (contractors). In the case of historical officers, this is usually accomplished by implementing a chain of employment:

For example --- Raimondo Montecuccoli is a leader for Florence by default. If Florence does not exist when he is due to begin his career, I wake him up for Milan. If Florence and Milan both do not exist, I wake him for Genoa.

Another example --- Alessandro Farnese is a default leader for Milan. If Milan is toast, he serves the Grand Duke (King?) of Savoy instead.

King.

Anyway, that does sound great, but keep in mind it should work and shouldn't give the sole survivor in Italy an amount of leaders which is too big.

I'm going to keep the career path of most historical officers pretty straight forward, to avoid confusion, but I may get creative with fictional officers (of whom I'm going to need a few). If you like this idea at all, I'm hoping to extend it so that Sicily and Savoy can benefit modestly from it as well.

Events to handle the waking/sleeping of all Italian officers I'm going to put in a file called condotierri.txt. I'm aiming to have leader files and include files for northern italy and my condotierri.txt submitted on friday. Events I plan on tackling on the weekend.

I'll be in touch, Archduke. Cheers.

As usual feel free to mess around everywhere as you please. Most of the times I will include it, if itsn't totally against the "Masterplan". I found some more time for Aberration lately and it begins to look real good.

 

[Medicine Man]

Ok Archduke. There are some leaders (8 files), include files (4), ai files (4) and an event file (condotierri.txt) all sitting in your in-box, in one happy zip file.

Just to make sure that they don't get overlooked in my unnecessarily long e-mail, here are the changes that need to be made to implement what I sent you:

1) Sienna needs to be removed from the Abe\Scenarios\The Aberrated Grand Campaign.eug both as a selectable TAG and as an included country (inc file)
2) With that done, Sienna's include file can be tossed from Abe\Scenarios\AGC
3) condotierri.txt needs to be added to Abe\DB\events.txt

Everything runs if these changes are made.

And some additions I'd like to make, but I'm not sure where to fetch army #s and type IDs from:

1) Add a starting army 6000/6000/0 and a starting navy 5/10/5 to the Papal States -- preferably in provinces 399 and 392 respectively
2) Add a starting army 9000/6000/0 and a starting navy 5/10/5 to Milano -- preferably in provinces 389 and 402
3) Add a starting navy to Florence 5/10/5 -- preferably to province 401
4) Add another army 4000/1000/0 to Genoa in province 370 (Venice)
5) Possibly remove Sienna(PIS) from the revolt.txt

Note: I stole the army type and ID# from Sienna's inc file and put it in Tuscany's inc file. As follows:

landunit = {
id = { type = 10019 id = 400 }
name = "Army of D'Medici"
location = 401
morale = 2
inf = 6000
cav = 6000
art = 0
}

Notify me by forum or email if anything is amiss. Danke.

 

[TheArchduke]

I have reconsidered some ideas now and will prolly give Genoa the leadership role in the Italy/Med region with Sicily challenging her in a big showdown in the early 16th. Whoever wins becomes the dominant power ( CoT, and more cbs) but the other one will retain punches to throw.

Sicily is a Catholic (Reformed, don't know yet, I am thinking no.) monarchy whilst Genoa is Burgher City so plenty of problems there, I hope.

EDIT:

Important, MM, don't take that to be set in stone, if you come up with good ideas for Milano, Genoa can easily be reduced to a medium power with merely SP capabilities again. So if do Milano nice, feel free to mess around with anyone and give her cbs and conflicts with Savoy over Piemonte as you like.

 

[Medicine Man]

I appreciate the vote of confidence Archduke. I do have some interesting ideas for Milan but not anything that will exclude Genoa from being great in her own right.

Here are my assumptions, goals and strategy concerning the development of Italy. Please critique as required:

1) In any given game, single- or multi-playered, Italy is likely to be a giant cage match. By 1600 there will probably be only one left, if there was more than one to begin with.

With this in mind, each Italian country I work on is intended to hold its own as a "Greater Italy". They all (will) have different capabilities and opportunities however, as you will soon see from Genoa's event file.

2) The forerunners in Italy are the Kingdom of Two Sicilies and the Most Serene Republic of Genoa. It is highly likely that these two nations will not be friendly with one another.

Milano is a strong, dark-horse candidate. She has strong generals... really strong generals. The 17th century Milanese Dukes will likely be a serious threat to the HRE if Milan has become dominant in Italy.

Tuscany and the Papal States are both going to have some interesting events but will definately be second tier powers in Italy. If they rise to power, they should do good things, if not, someone worthwhile will take their place.

3) I'm still working on Genoese events. Genoa doesn't get many cores in Italy, aside from the ones she starts with. By the same token, most of the other Italian powers do not get cores on Genoa or Venice. Although it is unlikely to happen in competitive MP, Genoa is the power most likely to be able to coexist with another nation in Italy.

 

[Medicine Man]

Ok. Concerning Milan.

At the time of this post, I'm still mired in Genoese events. Genoa needs alot of events as she is not really a conventional state. Consequently, I only have a handful of general plans regarding Milan.

Here they are in brief:

1) Milan starts out with CB-shields on its own three provinces and Tuscany's two provinces. Defeating Tuscany (by annexation or vassalization) allows Milan to extend her claims to Romanga and the Marches.

2) Ultimately, Milan will covet all of Italy, but will not get cores on Rome or Genoa.

3) Milan is still using default monarchs, so their royal family ends in the late 1500s. Lots of latitude here to make stuff up. By 1600, the Sforza's have retained (or regained) control and the early 1600s see several skilled but unpopular Dukes.

Period is marked by events that improve Milan's tax base and military potential but thrash her stability. 1585-1630 is the beginning of a disasterous detente against Genoa and Sicily, if they still exist.

4) Reign of the Iron Duke, 1660-1703. The beginning of Milan's zenith and a good time for a bid for german supremacy. Duke Vincenzo Sforza is vicious, ambitious and, sadly, quite a bit more popular than his sire. He and his Marshal, Giovanni Marescalchi, reform Milan into something like Frederick's Prussia. The Iron Duke is a bad guy to have as a neighbor. He'll take any excuse to expand; sending an impolite diplomat to his court is a form of assisted suicide.

It would be nice if the Genoese have the option to just appease Milan at this point, to get off their "hit list". Nice, but not essential.

5) A time of mild unrest after the passing of the Iron Duke. Near universal hostility from the Grand Dukedom's neighbors. Antonio Moscanti defends the realm valiantly during much of this period (10-15 years).

I have slightly different ideas about what each potential Italian major is about. Genoa and Siciliy are the rivals in an economic struggle. Tuscany the enlightened renaissance country. The Papal States the traditional, crusading nation. Milan can be best described as the "big, blunt stick".

Hopefully some food for thought here. Cheers.

 

[Kaigon]

Suggestions:
There's an event for Milan in 1447 (file: major_mlo.txt) that I would like to change.
Instead of making Francesco Sforza the first choice, the Swabian dynasty would be there, bumping Francesco Sforza to option b and Charles d'Orléans to option c.
Option a will activate the Swabian dynasty and give them german culture, this will also make Milan a vassal of Swabia if swabia is at least two provinces large (if they're only one province, Milan will become the leader making Swabia the vassal). Swabia will get italian culture as well but none of the countries will have cores on the other.
When the reformation comes, Swabia will eventually switch to Protestant, losing its italian culture (but for that sacrifice get some other nice bonuses, mainly protestant leaders).
At that point there are three possible ending with the relation to Milan.
1. Milan is still kept as a vassal. Unless Milan converts to Protestantism at the same time as Swabia, the vassalage will be broken. Milan will keep the swabian dynasty if staying protestant but will get a catholic-branch of the swabian dynasty if staying catholic. This dynasty could last for ~100 years or any other date that MM feels suitable. The catholic branch _could_ be similar to the Spanish Habsburg branch.
2. Milan is not a vassal and nothing will happen except for dynastical change to catholic branch since the original branch went protestant.
3. Milan does not exist. If Milan at some point before the reformation is annexed by anyone, Swabia will get cores on all province that Milan had cores on. This will happen no matter if Swabia annexes Milan or any other power. The other way around works if Swabia was the weaker part of the union (Milan gets swabian cores).

Comments?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well the end of Visconti event is my work and if it doesn't fit into MedicineMan's plans it may be discarded or altered.

 

[TheArchduke]

I have slightly different ideas about what each potential Italian major is about. Genoa and Siciliy are the rivals in an economic struggle. Tuscany the enlightened renaissance country. The Papal States the traditional, crusading nation. Milan can be best described as the "big, blunt stick".

Sounds like a very good big picture. Add Sicily to the economic country much like England (crown with strong merchant influence) and Genoa to being like Venice (Big city of Merchants with elected HoS)

On Kaigon's suggestions, a yeah, too. I am not sure if you can do what you suggested, like if Swabia is bigger they get Milano if other way round, Milano has to be bigger.

 

[Kaigon]

On Kaigon's suggestions, a yeah, too. I am not sure if you can do what you suggested, like if Swabia is bigger they get Milano if other way round, Milano has to be bigger.

It's true that you can't check if Swabia is biggar than Milan, but you can check if Swabia is at a certain size or just owns its cores. You can have one even trigger if Swabia is 3+ and one if Swabia is 1-2.

 

[Medicine Man]

After having a chance to review Kaigon's ideas, I have to say that I 95% like them. 5% of me is nervous about giving the "big-white blob" a way to creep back into the game.

Here's what I think I'll do:

1) The End of the Visconti stays in, with some modifications.

Beginning the Swabian dynasty will be option a). Turning over the Dukedom to the Sforzas will be option b). The Sforza family will remain in Milan regardless of the choice and will likely enter a personal union with Swabia.

Both Milan and Swabia are three province minors at the start. Regardless of their current size, Milan becomes Swabia's vassal. Swabia's the one with the ruling family, after all.

Swabia gains Italian culture immediately. Milan just gets vassalized.

2) Martin Luther and his protestant movement drives a wedge into the dynasty. When Swabia becomes protestant, Milan breaks vassalage. I don't really want to encourage Italian countries to embrace heresy.

Milan's rulers remain Swabian -- the diehard catholic side of the family. Milan now gains CB-shields on her former suzerein and german culture. Swabia loses her Italian culture by event (option a) but can chose to confront Milan (option b) -- gaining cores and not losing her culture.

I'd like this union to be bi-directional; Playing either Swabia or Milan can lead to interesting opportunities in the future.

3) By the early 1600s, the Catholic-Swabian line dies out and the Sforza-Habsburg dynasty takes over. Things for Milan follow the path I outlined previously from here on... except now Milan can beat up Swabia and become a real problem for Bavaria in the future.

By the same token, a human played Swabia can possibly exercise her claims on Lombardia and conquer Milan, making them a german-italian, protestant power. Something I've always wanted to do. By the time I get around to all the things I'd like to do, perhaps I'll add contingencies for this path -- including some of the non-Sforza generals as slept leaders for Swabia. I'll have to ask Archduke if that's ok first, naturally.

Thanks for the input folks. I had better get back to work on Genoa.
Cheers.

 

[Kaigon]

1) The End of the Visconti stays in, with some modifications.

Beginning the Swabian dynasty will be option a). Turning over the Dukedom to the Sforzas will be option b). The Sforza family will remain in Milan regardless of the choice and will likely enter a personal union with Swabia.

If they're equally strong from the beginning, there must be a logical choice for Sforza to become vassals of Swabia. Instead I have a new suggestion: Scrap the d'Orleans and put the Swabians there instead. Change place of the options to make Swabian dynasty more probable.
I can see why you want the Sforzas at the throne, due to their excellent stats. Wait... I got another idea... let the d'Orleans be option A but then the Swabians could help the Sforzas to the become the duke of Milan by deposing Charles.
Please, if you can motivate the Sforzas to become Swabian vassals, do so (perhaps you've found out some dynastical relation between the Sforzas and the Swabians that I've missed)

2) Martin Luther and his protestant movement drives a wedge into the dynasty. When Swabia becomes protestant, Milan breaks vassalage. I don't really want to encourage Italian countries to embrace heresy.

I still think an option B could be made to make Milan protestant. Option B will only happen once in each 18th game, is that too much?

Milan's rulers remain Swabian -- the diehard catholic side of the family. Milan now gains CB-shields on her former suzerein and german culture. Swabia loses her Italian culture by event (option a) but can chose to confront Milan (option b) -- gaining cores and not losing her culture.

I'd like this union to be bi-directional; Playing either Swabia or Milan can lead to interesting opportunities in the future.

I think that the Swabians should lose italian culture permanent if they convert to protestantism, UNLESS Milan also does. It should only be a slim chance for the option to make Italy protestant. They could still get the cores either way (as they might be seen as legitimate rulers).
One thing to mention is that Milan could get german culture at the point where Swabia gets italian, but they would lose it unless they go protestant. Of course, that might motivate a player to go protestant for other reason than being protestant. Forget what I said...

3) By the early 1600s, the Catholic-Swabian line dies out and the Sforza-Habsburg dynasty takes over. Things for Milan follow the path I outlined previously from here on... except now Milan can beat up Swabia and become a real problem for Bavaria in the future.

Isn't the Swabian dynasty the same as the Habsburg?

By the same token, a human played Swabia can possibly exercise her claims on Lombardia and conquer Milan, making them a german-italian, protestant power. Something I've always wanted to do. By the time I get around to all the things I'd like to do, perhaps I'll add contingencies for this path -- including some of the non-Sforza generals as slept leaders for Swabia. I'll have to ask Archduke if that's ok first, naturally.

I think that Swabia will only have a chance to become the germano-italian kingdom if they annex Milan (since they're vassals) before the protestant event happens to them. The protestant event will most likely (option A) make Swabia protestant if Milan _does_ exist and will most likely stay catholics if Milan _does not_ exist AND Swabia owns their land. All in all, the AI will have to choose option b either as Milan or as Swabia to have a chance to make Italy protestant.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, afaik the Sforzas weren't related to any powerful family by marriage historically, except the Visconti to inherit Milan. d'Orleans was also related to Visconti (historically the cause for France's claims on Milan in Italian Wars) and Charles V Habsburg was also somewhat obscurely related to Visconti, on which base he ultimately claimed Milan when Sforzas died out in 1530.

Of course the marriages can easily be Aberrated, I just used historical relationships when making the Visconti Ending event. You could have three options in end of Visconti event though, as reasonably Sforza, d'Orleans and Habsburgs (Swabia) are all good claimants there.

 

[Kaigon]

Well, afaik the Sforzas weren't related to any powerful family by marriage historically, except the Visconti to inherit Milan. d'Orleans was also related to Visconti (historically the cause for France's claims on Milan in Italian Wars) and Charles V Habsburg was also somewhat obscurely related to Visconti, on which base he ultimately claimed Milan when Sforzas died out in 1530.

Of course the marriages can easily be Aberrated, I just used historical relationships when making the Visconti Ending event. You could have three options in end of Visconti event though, as reasonably Sforza, d'Orleans and Habsburgs (Swabia) are all good claimants there.

Oh, I forgot that the Habsburgs later claimed Milan... now, they just have to take it 83 years earlier. We just have to find out the exact relation and add it to the event description.
Still, this means that the Sforzas won't be the ruling family if Milan becomes a Swabian vassal, right?
And, shouldn't Burgundy (or if anyone else owns Orleanais) get Milan as a vassal if that dynasty is chosen?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, original plan (when Milan was to be the Major of Italy) was that it would provoke conflict event chain with Burgundy. As Milan now is just a medium (minor?) power, it reasonably could make Milan vassal to Burgundy if d'Orleans line is chosen. Maybe d'Orleans line should exists as no-Swabia-cooperation choice, as if all choices of Milan early on make it a bedfellow of Swabia, it is a bit deterministic.

Also there is some ground for some conflict events between the interested parties, if such is desired.