Northern Italy (attn: Archduke)

[Kaigon]

I agree that there should be a risk for fighting with the power that Milan doesn't join and it will be even harder if they choose the Sforzas (both Swabia and Burgundy might become upset, but in return, the Sforzas are good military leaders).
Milan will still have three choices, Swabia, Burgundy and independent, not so deterministic, as only the AI will choose Swabia 17 out of 19 times. And there are no inherit commands in the event files. If Swabia/Burgundy wants Milan, they have to do it in the same way as everyone else: Diplo-annex.

 

[Kaigon]

*sigh*
It seems the Habsburg became a claimant of Milan in 1494, when Maximilian I married the niece Bianca of Lodovico il Moro (1451-1508).
Of course, we could just Aberrate another relation with the duchy of Milan. Albert V of Habsburg could for instance marry another woman than Elizabeth of Hungary/Bohemia, right?
I'll seek further and see if I can find any historical person to marry him with.

EDIT: We could just make it simply if Filippo Maria Visconti had a legitemate daughter, married with a Swabian. Of course, that would perhaps remove the interesting conflict, by making the burgundian claim quite irrelevant and puny.

EDIT2: Perhaps even better, the duke of Gian Galeazzo Visconti, 1351?–1402 was in real history invaded by Rudolf I of Habsburg who sought to take control of HRE-Italy when Gian conquered parts of Italy. Since that conflict obvious never happend in Aberration (Bavaria is HRE and doesn't border to Milan). Instead Rudolf IV (the Stifter), the Swabian monarch could've married any imaginable relative to the Visconti family to strengthen the bounds and perhaps take a piece of the cake in the wars that Milan waged.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

In the geneaology I based my info on, Virida, cousin to Gian Galeazzo and sister to his second wife Catharine, married Leopold Habsburg and was thus grandmother of Frederick, historically Habsburg emperor of HRE 1440-1493. I always assumed that the claim of Habsburgs was based on this relation.

On the other hand, an Aberrated relative of Gian Galeazzo would be splendid as the claim of d'Orleans comes through his daughter from his first marriage. Then Habsburgs and d'Orleans would have equally good claim and easily comparable in obscurity to Sforza's marriage with the illegitimate daughter of Filippo Maria.

 

[Medicine Man]

Lots of interesting stuff here and I think I now have a pretty good idea how I'm going to handle the dynastic lines of Milan.

After the Visconti come to an end, either the Swabian Habsburgs (a), Duke of Orleans (b), or Sforza condotierri will become rulers. Option a or b will vassalize Milan to the appropriate country. In this event, Milan is like a country ruled by remote control. Local administrators govern but they owe fealty and tribute to a foreign crown.

Swabia going protestant breaks the vassalage and also results in a small portion of the Swabian dynasty transplanting themselves into Italy (the ultra catholic bunch). These UC-Swabians are not representative of the entire Habsburg line, just a portion who found reason (moral and political) to separate. The appearance of actual local monarchs, german ones, is what would give Milan german culture. I'm not going to give it to them in 1456; in fact, 1520 is probably still a little early.

No AI option for a Protestant Milan -- sorry. Political imperative and religion were closely coupled in this time period and they are in the most catholic place on the planet.

As for the Sforzas: they will likely come into power around 1600, if they did not already. It won't be a royal marriage of any sort, but more of a local takeover due to an unclear line of succession -- much like real life Milan after the Visconti.

What happens in Swabia, I don't know... and it isn't up to me either, so do as you will.

Cheers and beers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

D'Orleans line historically ended in 1589 (Henri III was assasinated), so that would be quite close to 1600 and could very well cause unclear succession and nice space for Sforzas to step in.

 

[Kaigon]

In the geneaology I based my info on, Virida, cousin to Gian Galeazzo and sister to his second wife Catharine, married Leopold Habsburg and was thus grandmother of Frederick, historically Habsburg emperor of HRE 1440-1493. I always assumed that the claim of Habsburgs was based on this relation.

On the other hand, an Aberrated relative of Gian Galeazzo would be splendid as the claim of d'Orleans comes through his daughter from his first marriage. Then Habsburgs and d'Orleans would have equally good claim and easily comparable in obscurity to Sforza's marriage with the illegitimate daughter of Filippo Maria.

Yes, that's even better (now, why didn't I find that? ), although it seems I will have to change one thing. At the moment, Ladislas Postumus is the ruler of Swabia when the event comes around, but I could of course change that. (I'm getting really confused by reading the Habsburgs )

EDIT: To not threadjack this thread. Further swabian discussions, not closely related to Milan, goes into the Swabian thread.

 

[TheArchduke]

MM, I need some brainstorming on how you planned for Genoa and Sicily to interact. Check the first sicilian event for an idea about how it starts. Thanks.

 

[Medicine Man]

MM, I need some brainstorming on how you planned for Genoa and Sicily to interact. Check the first sicilian event for an idea about how it starts. Thanks.

Ok, will do Archduke.

The Genoa events are circling the drain right now. Sorry its taking so long, but I've been hammered by work lately. Once I've finished Genoa, version 1, I'll send it in and add Sicily to my list.

 

[Medicine Man]

Genoa's events, revised AI files, and monarchs are e-mailed to you now, Archduke. Enjoy.

 

[TheArchduke]

Checking them throughly, they seem very nice.

I am unsure about the drastic iberian event sequence atm, but I will put it in for now and see if it is too unrealistic or dramatic ingame. Probably not as she will seldom happen.

 

[Medicine Man]

Checking them throughly, they seem very nice.

I am unsure about the drastic iberian event sequence atm, but I will put it in for now and see if it is too unrealistic or dramatic ingame. Probably not as she will seldom happen.

Actually, I have my own doubts about that sequence... and not just because Granada is also my baby. If you have the patience, Archduke, I wouldn't mind taking another pass at that part. I could have a new event file submitted tonight.

 

[TheArchduke]

Surely! I won't upload a new file till tomorow anyway.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

After doing the Genoa-Byza interaction check up, following suggestions:

- Remove event 200120 from conditions of 201113 (Palaiologoi seek asylum) as with the path that leads to 200120 the Palaiologoi break relations with Genoa
- Add condition NOT = { monarch = 40177 }, which is the Turmoil followed by Palaiologoi, to event 201114 as this should happen only with Kantakouzenoi in power
- 201118 (Palaiologoi insult the republic) should be triggered by same event choices as 200148 (Palaiologoi of Byzantion break with Genoa, for Krete), right?
- Why Most Serene Republic Stands on It's Last Legs can't happen if Byzantium owns Venice, Sardinia, Malta or Corsica? If Genoa has lost on of those to a third party and Byzantium retakes it, Genoa would feel strong enough to not to submit...? Also removal of VPs from Genoa seems a bit silly, when it gets annexed.

I'll do necessary triggering adjustments to Byza events when they are clear and then give Byza events for DL again.

 

[Medicine Man]

- Remove event 200120 from conditions of 201113 (Palaiologoi seek asylum) as with the path that leads to 200120 the Palaiologoi break relations with Genoa

Ok. Let me check the event files first.

- Add condition NOT = { monarch = 40177 }, which is the Turmoil followed by Palaiologoi, to event 201114 as this should happen only with Kantakouzenoi in power

Would it work if I reference a Byzantine monarch in a Genoese event? Or are you talking about a Genoese event?

- 201118 (Palaiologoi insult the republic) should be triggered by same event choices as 200148 (Palaiologoi of Byzantion break with Genoa, for Krete), right?

This event is intended to be triggered by Krete's reaction to the Byzantium breaking with the Republic. I think that is what I did in the event file.

- Why Most Serene Republic Stands on It's Last Legs can't happen if Byzantium owns Venice, Sardinia, Malta or Corsica? If Genoa has lost on of those to a third party and Byzantium retakes it, Genoa would feel strong enough to not to submit...? Also removal of VPs from Genoa seems a bit silly, when it gets annexed.

I did the province thing so the Byzantium can't just take enough provinces to whittle Genoa down to one prov, then build up the relations and *poof* inherit. It is a compromise, but I decided that the Republic begins to distrust Constantinople if the Emperor is constantly benefiting from their misfortune.

The removal of VPs is just to make sure that the option shows up. I'm not sure if it is the case here, but sometimes putting nothing but sleepevent or trigger commands in an option creates some unpredictable behavoir. I try to avoid doing so, just to be on the safe side.

I'll do necessary triggering adjustments to Byza events when they are clear and then give Byza events for DL again.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I also added a sleepevent command to the one of the Byzantine events. I can't remember the number, but I'll get it when I get home. Basically, if the Kantakouzenoi do not move the CoT to Athens, the event where Genoa offers to buy the province should be slept.

I'll get back to you on your other questions, Byak. I should be back in front of my home comp in 4 hours. Cheers.

 

[Medicine Man]

I had a chance to look at the event files again, Byak, and I now understand what you were telling me.

After doing the Genoa-Byza interaction check up, following suggestions:

- Remove event 200120 from conditions of 201113 (Palaiologoi seek asylum) as with the path that leads to 200120 the Palaiologoi break relations with Genoa

Done. The trigger is now event 200118. As I understand it, this is the turmoil that marrs the end of the genoese-friendly Palaiologoi dynasty. If so, then I think this is perfect.

- Add condition NOT = { monarch = 40177 }, which is the Turmoil followed by Palaiologoi, to event 201114 as this should happen only with Kantakouzenoi in power

What I've done here is set the triggers to be event = 200115 OR event = 200116 AND cot = 359 AND NOT owned = { province = 359 data = -1 }. This Genoese cot purchase event triggers if the Kantakouzenoi succession in happens in 1592 and if there is a cot in Hellas.

That should be about 99% fool-proof.

- 201118 (Palaiologoi insult the republic) should be triggered by same event choices as 200148 (Palaiologoi of Byzantion break with Genoa, for Krete), right?

Absolutely correct. When you get around to your next edit, could you make option b of 200148 trigger Genoa event 201118?

- Why Most Serene Republic Stands on It's Last Legs can't happen if Byzantium owns Venice, Sardinia, Malta or Corsica? If Genoa has lost on of those to a third party and Byzantium retakes it, Genoa would feel strong enough to not to submit...? Also removal of VPs from Genoa seems a bit silly, when it gets annexed.

This is staying the way it is, for now. This is not intended to be something that the Byzantine player can easily engineer himself, nor is it intended to be the most direct inroad in Italy for the Empire.

If you are still planning on having a Genoa-friendly Palaiologoi (Dauid) event chain to trade the Cot for Italian culture, we'll have to work something out. Most likely you'll have to start the chain on your end and we would probably have to alter the Palaiologoi seek asylum chain (so Genoa doesn't get the Cot by default). But this speculative future event-chain should wait -- I think I have everything critical on my end sorted out.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but I also added a sleepevent command to the one of the Byzantine events. I can't remember the number, but I'll get it when I get home. Basically, if the Kantakouzenoi do not move the CoT to Athens, the event where Genoa offers to buy the province should be slept.

Oh yeah. Disregard this change request. I did not quite fully understand the order of events in the BYZ event file. In fact, could you double check event 200117 to make sure that there is not a sleepevent = 200126 command in there. If there is, please clip it. If I'm understanding the file, it's not needed.

Cheers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Done. The trigger is now event 200118. As I understand it, this is the turmoil that marrs the end of the genoese-friendly Palaiologoi dynasty. If so, then I think this is perfect.

That is right. With 200120 Byzantium of Palaiologoi has broken relations with Genoa.

What I've done here is set the triggers to be event = 200115 OR event = 200116 AND cot = 359 AND NOT owned = { province = 359 data = -1 }. This Genoese cot purchase event triggers if the Kantakouzenoi succession in happens in 1592 and if there is a cot in Hellas.

That is a good set of triggers. Should be fool-proof unless some obscurity that surpasses my intellect exists somewhere.

Absolutely correct. When you get around to your next edit, could you make option b of 200148 trigger Genoa event 201118?

Yes. 201118 seems to be the reaction event for Genoa if Kretan Palaiologoi break relations with Genoa. You should futher the deathdate of event 201147 (Krete decides whether or not to join Genoa) as latest occasion for 201118 to happen is time period 1595-1605. I think you could put the deathdate of 201147 to be 1819 and the startdate to be 1605 instead. That way Palaiologoi of Byzantium have always made the whether or not be pro-Genoa.

This is staying the way it is, for now. This is not intended to be something that the Byzantine player can easily engineer himself, nor is it intended to be the most direct inroad in Italy for the Empire.

Hm, wait a second, is the trigger "Not own all these four" or "Not own any of these four"? If it's the former, it's more reasonable, as that event is about the hardest event to trigger I can think of.

If you are still planning on having a Genoa-friendly Palaiologoi (Dauid) event chain to trade the Cot for Italian culture, we'll have to work something out. Most likely you'll have to start the chain on your end and we would probably have to alter the Palaiologoi seek asylum chain (so Genoa doesn't get the Cot by default). But this speculative future event-chain should wait -- I think I have everything critical on my end sorted out.

I don't think I'll give Palaiologoi italian culture for going Genoa-friendly. The rewards should come instead from cooperation with Genoa. Most likely giving cores on parts of Genoa's enemies in conflict events in Mediterranean. If those areas are not held at the time Turmoil strikes, the cores will be removed.

Oh yeah. Disregard this change request. I did not quite fully understand the order of events in the BYZ event file. In fact, could you double check event 200117 to make sure that there is not a sleepevent = 200126 command in there. If there is, please clip it. If I'm understanding the file, it's not needed.

There was no sleepevent = 200126 command there, but there was a sleepevent = 200125, which would sleep the initial event of Kantakouzenoi trouble times. Which should definetly NOT be there.

Well, it now seems to work nicely. Want to point me out to the possible conflict events where Byzantium could (should?) intervene when it's pro-Genoa?

 

[Medicine Man]

That is a good set of triggers. Should be fool-proof unless some obscurity that surpasses my intellect exists somewhere.

Well... it is possible that the Kantakouzenoi could be in power, chose not to move the CoT to Athens, but the Constantinople CoT could stagnate and a new CoT open randomly in Athens.

I don't think I've ever seen the Thrace CoT stagnate however.

Yes. 201118 seems to be the reaction event for Genoa if Kretan Palaiologoi break relations with Genoa. You should futher the deathdate of event 201147 (Krete decides whether or not to join Genoa) as latest occasion for 201118 to happen is time period 1595-1605. I think you could put the deathdate of 201147 to be 1819 and the startdate to be 1605 instead. That way Palaiologoi of Byzantium have always made the whether or not be pro-Genoa.

Excellent point. I'll have to make that change... although I've already sent in my event file to Archduke again. We should work everything out before I resent yet again.

Hm, wait a second, is the trigger "Not own all these four" or "Not own any of these four"? If it's the former, it's more reasonable, as that event is about the hardest event to trigger I can think of.

It is the latter -- "Not own any of these four". As I said before, it is not intended to be an event that the Byzantines can engineer themselves. Perhaps once in awhile, it may happen, but it should not be a common occurance. Most often the Byzantines should benefit from cooperating with their allies, not hoping they get thrashed.

There was no sleepevent = 200126 command there, but there was a sleepevent = 200125, which would sleep the initial event of Kantakouzenoi trouble times. Which should definetly NOT be there.

Heh. It didn't do it.

I don't think I'll give Palaiologoi italian culture for going Genoa-friendly. The rewards should come instead from cooperation with Genoa. Most likely giving cores on parts of Genoa's enemies in conflict events in Mediterranean. If those areas are not held at the time Turmoil strikes, the cores will be removed.

Well, it now seems to work nicely. Want to point me out to the possible conflict events where Byzantium could (should?) intervene when it's pro-Genoa?

The time of the Genoese-Sicilian conflict, Prosecution of the Golden Rule, would be the ideal time for Byzantine interference in Italy. I can't remember the ID# off the top of my head, but I can find out tonight.

I'm out of ID#s in the Genoa event file, so let me know what you want to do before I send in my next file to AD... perhaps I'll be able to rework things to make some space.

Cheers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Hm, we should definetly be online at the same time to solve this out for good... :wacko:

Well, if you have ICQ my number is 328925130, if you have AIM my username is byakhiam. I'll be around from about 22 local time to 03 or 04 local time, which translates to 19 - 00 / 01 in GMT. If you don't have ICQ or AIM, we just have to fill up the thread.

 

[Medicine Man]

I do have ICQ, Byakhiam, and I'll post my number when I get home (which will be in about 7.5 hours). I think I'll add my ICQ# to my profile as well -- I don't know why I haven't already.

Unfortunately, I'm on PST, so we may have some trouble finding a convenient time to confer.

Archduke: I am going to take one more pass over the Genoa events after Byak and I have a chance to talk. I have some re-balancing I want to do anyhow. I'll re-submit Genoa (for the last time I hope) at the same time I send in the revised epo_iberia and a corresponding major_gra (there will have to be some changes to accomodate the new iberia events).

Cheers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, I'll stay around on my ICQ until you show up, so poke me.