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Adolith

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Feb 11, 2017
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Hello,

could we get some more information about how the new crit system works?

- What are the new critical effects and what are their consequences?

- Are all new critical effects "equal", i.E. are all effects applied on a penetration instead of a kill?

It seems to me that the new crit system was quite a big nerf to at guns / at teams. I often had situations where 2 armor vehicles get hit point blank range by AT guns / AT teams, only to suffer a "tracks damaged" resulting in the death of the AT asset.

Good old rushes seem a lot harder to stop, since more vehicles survive.
 
It seems to me that the new crit system was quite a big nerf to at guns / at teams. I often had situations where 2 armor vehicles get hit point blank range by AT guns / AT teams, only to suffer a "tracks damaged" resulting in the death of the AT asset.

German AT-planes were nerfed hugely too. They kill almost never now and it's very sad.
Piat had become even bigger shit than it was.
APCs have much more survivability and it's possible to rush at-guns by them.
If I played a lot more of the beta I'd never agree with this change. :(
Small video example (watch from 5:14):
This is ridiculous, dear devs...
 
It simply just illustrates that Eugene don't know what they are doing! This game already had an abysmal balance and this new patch have made it even worse and the next one that they are still working on will make it even worse then now! And for the record, I took part in survey and dismissed all of their unnecessary changes except improved short/mid range accuracy, but in my opinion it was/is stupid to base implementation of these changes based on community opinion. It is as stupid as if government would make a referendum to ask it's people if we need to raise or cut taxes next year, but as Eugene were chosen these changes to begin with and thought that they were good for play-ability and game balance to begin with, then it doesn't even matter, because like I wrote at beginning - Eugene simply don't know what they are doing and are simply throwing in some marketing tricks and implementing some populistic/requested features that all other games of this genre have just to sell handful of new copies of the game, but in the same time destroying already abysmal game balance even further!
 
Hello,

Good old rushes seem a lot harder to stop, since more vehicles survive.

Finally a step into the right direction.What is a game without a good old rush.I dont have 500+ hours in in SD but realised very soon that you cant rush in this game with 500 points unless you will lose the whole map control(ofc i talk about rushing a decent/good player and not a noob who plays SD 44 because of too much History channel.

Imo the decrease from 1000 to 500 starting points compared WRD to SD 44 was a mistake and another "try to listen to the comunity,ye those 5 noobs that cant micro more then 5 APM and their posts on forum how Wargame is spammy.

I would gladly participate in a Beta with 1000-1500 starting points like we had in Wargames.Iris Zoom technology Eugen uses for their games is the best thing for the gaming industry and should be used to the fullest,not to control 20 units in a 1vs1 and so on.

This is a good old rush 5 years ago cca,1500 starting points give it to SD 44 and you have a game full of violence,speed and momentum.
(skip to 4:00 for rush start)
 
I disagree regarding the new crit system. I think it adds a lot to the game. Both Axis and Allies get the same crit table. Using Armoured Divisions were very difficult. They just didn't feel like a useable division, especially if you were allied armour. Axis Armour was alot more survivable because of the King Tigers and panthers. But if allied armour went up against a Tiger it was finished. You sank 130 points into something that had no chance in stopping anything because AT guns will finish you, Tanks will finish you and planes will finish you.

Now you actually can slow it down. Now positioning is very important against Axis armour. Ambushes are extremely important. Before, I would try ambushing tanks and it never worked because there were only two results, dead or not. Against German armour it's pretty much always dead.

I persoonally like the Crit system. It's a lot of fun

Using Armoured divisions were a lot harder in previous games. Tanks just insta-popped like zits that is why infantry divisions like panzergrenadiers and 101st were considered the go to Division in competitive play. This patch gave Armour a place in the game now. I never used to play armoured divisions because you can't actually use armour to cross the field because your tanks will get instantly destroyed. Now they are more resistant but they suffer differently.

Also, I was listening to Tank Chat from one of the hosts from the Tank Museum and he said the entire world war 2 the statistics of tank crew members dying were 1400 deaths. Many tanks suffered damage but crews seldom died, many escaped and ran back to the front line to get a new tank. Out of millions of deaths in WW2, Tankers suffered 1400 deaths from actual Tank fire.

I always thought it was a deathtrap riding in these tanks. Little did I know.

This shows how robust tanks really were. They didn't just explode like in the movies. This new critical system really shows and feels tanks aren't just paper when it comes up against something with AP 10 or more.
 
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Imo the decrease from 1000 to 500 starting points compared WRD to SD 44 was a mistake and another "try to listen to the comunity,ye those 5 noobs that cant micro more then 5 APM and their posts on forum how Wargame is spammy.

Are you completely blind?
3rLgzwR.jpg


Using Armoured Divisions were very difficult.

Actually Most Armored Divisions were/are pretty solid choice. Only Panzer Lehr is a bit inferior in 1x1 except teamplay (some skilled players aren't agreed with me though).

Axis Armour was alot more survivable because of the King Tigers and panthers.

Yeah. Especially on A...

Now you actually can slow it down. Now positioning is very important against Axis armour. Ambushes are extremely important. Before, I would try ambushing tanks and it never worked because there were only two results, dead or not. Against German armour it's pretty much always dead.

You did it wrong. I made a lot of traps against KTs and panthers and it often works even with such bad player as me.

This shows how robust tanks really were. They didn't just explode like in the movies. This new critical system really shows and feels tanks aren't just paper when it comes up against something with AP 10 or more.

Yes, they didn't not explode. They just turned their crews into forcemeat with armor fragments.
 
I disagree regarding the new crit system. I think it adds a lot to the game. Just because your favorite AT weapon can't insta-kill a unit like before doesn't mean it's broken. Both Axis and Allies get the SAME crit table. so for somebody to complain that his junker AT plane now can't insta-kill a tank like he used to is pure nonsense. Then to say German AT is now NERFed....what does that mean? Do the Allies get a more robust crit chart? Did the German AT get different penetration values?

Using Armoured divisions were a lot harder in previous games. Tanks just insta-popped like zits that is why infantry divisions like panzergrenadiers and 101st were considered the go to Division in competitive play. This patch gave Armour a place in the game now. I never used to play armoured divisions because you can't actually use armour to cross the field because your tanks will get instantly destroyed. Now they are more resistant but they suffer differently.

Also, I was listening to Tank Chat from one of the hosts from the Tank Museum and he said the entire world war 2 the statistics of tank crew members dying were 1400 deaths. Many tanks suffered damage but crews seldom died, many escaped and ran back to the front line to get a new tank. Out of millions of deaths in WW2, Tankers suffered 1400 deaths from actual Tank fire.

I always thought it was a deathtrap riding in these tanks. Little did I know.

This shows how robust tanks really were. They didn't just explode like in the movies. This new critical system really shows and feels tanks aren't just paper when it comes up against something with AP 10 or more.

It's nerfed cause inf decks or decks like lehr rely heavily and mostly on at guns in phase A. And the at guns just don't do the job anymore if you have some concentration of vehicles ahead of you. It is not about theoric crit table it is about the choice of units you have within each deck. And each deck with lack of vehicles which canno't bring anything but at guns to deal with vehicles at the beginning is worse than before. With the new crit system you should wait and close the distance with your at guns to get your kills but you canno't wait to use your at guns to close the distance in ambush mode cause vehicles will close the distane too and use their machineguns along their main guns.

Using most armor decks was harder before due to maps with heavy treelines and forests and cause they lacked cheap infantry but the "one shot one kill" flavour was good in itself, it worked with ambushed at guns but with vehicles too. It doesn't anymore. You canno't side shot with only one vehicle or use some at gun in a very good angle and expect a kill to reward your good move, your at will just get blow after the first shot as it has been revealed, your vehicle will track/panick the opponent vehicle but never kill it. It has slowered the game as you need to effectively kill units to have some advantage to gain ground (these slower games are the feeling ranked players have since the patch with the new close combat mode but it's more related to the new crit system than close combat mode imo).
The new crit system does favor camping as it tells you to build concentration of force and use your units in very close engagement/rushes cause the closer the better to have kills. That too has slowered the game (you wait and build then you rush).
As it has slowered the game you find yourself sooner than before in some shit arty war where both sides are playing like in destruction dumbshit static gamemode where all is about the best camper against the worse feeder.
And btw, it is no coincidence there is nothing but 10vs10 destruction games playing right now, the conquest community is clearing out cause it's unbalanced, you were unable to find 20 simultaneous guys able to push a line in a 10vs10 before, now you just find yourself against guys doing nothing but wait cause they are rewarded to do so.

The best german inf deck right now is probly 16th luftwaffe cause it doesn't rely on at guns but on 88's, show you how good that change is... Doesn't mean 16th is unstoppable but it's way harder killing 16th than 352nd. Not to mention 716th. Who even play this deck, i never see it on the field. Oh wait maybe cause 716th has no good vehicle whatsoever?!? Makes sense.

I was all for the ammo truck repairing vehicles but i'm not a fan at all of the new crit system. This game was about good moves not about good camp and rushes.
 
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Are you completely blind?
3rLgzwR.jpg

I can see clearly now that rain is gone...

Ofc you can put any settings and make any clown game mode you want but that low 500 points start is the default mode,what i wanted to say is that i would paricipate in a beta with 1000-1500 starting points as defeault mode and with double,tripple the unit avail. changed and other stuff.

You can disagree with me even more,but fact is that the game is boring,why,one of the reasons is the awfully low starting points.
Specially now that we can give orders in deployment phase 1000,1500 starting points would be even better.
 
I can see clearly now that rain is gone...

Ofc you can put any settings and make any clown game mode you want but that low 500 points start is the default mode,what i wanted to say is that i would paricipate in a beta with 1000-1500 starting points as defeault mode and with double,tripple the unit avail. changed and other stuff.

You can disagree with me even more,but fact is that the game is boring,why,one of the reasons is the awfully low starting points.
Specially now that we can give orders in deployment phase 1000,1500 starting points would be even better.

With more units you'd have more units not moving cause you wouldn't be able to manage everything at once. Or you would use your units as meatshields cause you'd have plenty. I guess you just like a defensive-rush type of game and find it fun when i find this particularly boring. Destruction games already follow this logic, everything is about buying units stay behind your treelines and arty. You would just get more of that, with more units and their firepower how the hell would you be able to get from one treeline to another?
 
With more units you'd have more units not moving cause you wouldn't be able to manage everything at once. Or you would use your units as meatshields cause you'd have plenty. I guess you just like a defensive-rush type of game and find it fun when i find this particularly boring. Destruction games already follow this logic, everything is about buying units stay behind your treelines and arty. You would just get more of that, with more units and their firepower how the hell would you be able to get from one treeline to another?

Its all about meatshields and no i dont like defensive game,i like games full of violence,speed and momentum and APM click fest,you cant get that with 500 points where you micro your 20 units like a chess game,its 2018,Iris Zoom at its best form,give it mass battles,but ye Eugen listen to always the wrong forum crys from noobs and now we play chess ww2 game.
 
Its all about meatshields and no i dont like defensive game,i like games full of violence,speed and momentum and APM click fest,you cant get that with 500 points where you micro your 20 units like a chess game,its 2017,Iris Zoom at its best form,give it mass battles,but ye Eugen listen to always the wrong forum crys from noobs and now we play chess ww2 game.

It's not some arcade game with a large number of units but originally a game with fire angles and fire distances, this doesn't fit large numbers of units. There is no point to have this precise ap/he system if you just contourn it with large number of units just shooting all over the place in auto mode.
You wouldn't micro anything anymore except your larger group of units in a whole like in other RTS (like microing a group of archers to kill one unit at a time).
 
You wouldn't micro anything anymore except your larger group of units in a whole like in other RTS (like microing a group of archers to kill one unit at a time).

You know that from ?You played WEE ,WAB WRD or you speak as all knowing master of Sd44 and all its problems ?
More units,more combinations of tactics,strategies,not moving and shooting on everything that moves with your 2-4 mortar,arty pieces and microing your 10 inf squads,2 atg squads and 2 tanks on the field supported by the best zoom engine on the market Iris Zoom.
 
With more units you'd have more units not moving cause you wouldn't be able to manage everything at once. Or you would use your units as meatshields cause you'd have plenty. I guess you just like a defensive-rush type of game and find it fun when i find this particularly boring. Destruction games already follow this logic, everything is about buying units stay behind your treelines and arty. You would just get more of that, with more units and their firepower how the hell would you be able to get from one treeline to another?
Actually that would be really great. More points > artry becomes even more OP than it currently is > Eugen nerfs arty into the ground > the game becomes less of a Mortar Simulator 2017.
 
You know that from ?You played WEE ,WAB WRD or you speak as all knowing master of Sd44 and all its problems ?
More units,more combinations of tactics,strategies,not moving and shooting on everything that moves with your 2-4 mortar,arty pieces and microing your 10 inf squads,2 atg squads and 2 tanks on the field supported by the best zoom engine on the market Iris Zoom.

I know that from more than 10 years playing RTS. When you have larger group of units, you don't manage them one by one, you canno't anymore, and there isn't any game with this number of units which have some complicated fire system with 100m/200m/300m weapons or AP system the closer you get. It turns arcadey.
Give more units you'll have more mortars shooting everywhere, more tanks shooting everywhere, more inf moving everywhere and you will have to reduce each unit capabilities and reenforce their health. It's why you have visual health bars in most of RTS.


Actually that would be really great. More points > artry becomes even more OP than it currently is > Eugen nerfs arty into the ground > the game becomes less of a Mortar Simulator 2017.

You would have to nerf everything cause every concentration of force would be too strong, reduce strenghts and give health bars.
You are free to find it good and to say it is the way to follow though but i like SD the way it is precisely cause it does look more like Combat Mission than Company of Heroes. That was niche but fresh, there are plenty of regular ww2 rts. The "one shot one kill" flavour is new.
 
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Please stay on topic, this thread is about the new crit system, not about rushes and especially not about starting points / unit density.

I would like to know the exact conditions and effects of every crit in the game. For example:

Wheels/tracks damaged: reduces movement speed by X%, happens on armor penetration
Driver wounded: unit cant move for X seconds, happens on non penetrating shot
.
.
.

I was hoping to see this in the patch log.
 
Please stay on topic, this thread is about the new crit system, not about rushes and especially not about starting points / unit density.

I would like to know the exact conditions and effects of every crit in the game. For example:

Wheels/tracks damaged: reduces movement speed by X%, happens on armor penetration
Driver wounded: unit cant move for X seconds, happens on non penetrating shot
.
.
.

I was hoping to see this in the patch log.

I think everyone here is precisely on topic. If you don't want us to talk about the new crit system what it does impact and what everyone like or not in this game just send an email to Eugen devs.
 
So far nobody has replied to the interesting Adolith's question.

I really hate Eugen's opacity on this kind of modification to the game.
Is this so compicated to list the changes and their exact effect to the game?
 
I know that from more than 10 years playing RTS. When you have larger group of units, you don't manage them one by one, you canno't anymore, and there isn't any game with this number of units which have some complicated fire system with 100m/200m/300m weapons or AP system the closer you get. It turns arcadey.
Give more units you'll have more mortars shooting everywhere, more tanks shooting everywhere, more inf moving everywhere and you will have to reduce each unit capabilities and reenforce their health. It's why you have visual health bars in most of RTS.
.

Nice to hear that you have so many exp and I invite you to play any Wargame and you will see that you can manage more then 20+ units one by one,you need to if you wanna win,you cant even give orders to the units in deployment,from sec 1 the micro starts and you get warmed up for the rest of the match.

I forgot to add that mortars and arty shouldnt be touched(was talking about some topics ago),by doubling or triplling the other units it wouldnt be that bad
 
Nice to hear that you have so many exp and I invite you to play any Wargame and you will see that you can manage more then 20+ units one by one,you need to if you wanna win,you cant even give orders to the units in deployment,from sec 1 the micro starts and you get warmed up for the rest of the match.

I forgot to add that mortars and arty shouldnt be touched(was talking about some topics ago),by doubling or triplling the other units it wouldnt be that bad

Even if you don't touch much the arty, you'd have twice or triple stacked vehicles or infantry, doesn't change anything.
Of course you may have twice or triple the number of units on the field to manage but tell me how you could manage them with the same precision to use their current abilities and strenghts if you have no health bar (as now) and with a game who is originally coming from a one shot one kill flavour (even if we lost a bit of it with the last patch). I've a clear understanding you want to go towards a more tactical wargame and less towards a punishing RTS (but we have Hearts of Iron, so why?). But don't tell me you may manage such a thing keeping the current flavour, cause you can't. Or you're some ubermensch or something. It will obviously be more messy and you'll obviously move bunch of units together and give group orders, like we already tend to do with arty and stacks of vehicles late game in C phase.
As now you may finish a game with 30 units or more on the field, you would have 60 90 or maybe more with what you ask for. On the same maps. It would be crowded and you would loose units without even be able to know what happened. Of course it would logically lead to the introduction of health bars and nerf of damage and the units would have to shoot many times on the same targets to get a kill (you will btw heard people crying everywhere about how unrealistic it is).

The fun part is many newcomers already find the game hard enough with its current number and type of units, too nervous, too much unforgiving and mostly too fast, they struggle that much they have to play with bullet time and pause to follow the action. And you want to give them twice or triple the units without turning it into some arcade game, i don't know how you plan to do it.
 
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So far nobody has replied to the interesting Adolith's question.

Hee hee... yeah this thread is not working for its intended purpose.

Please stay on topic, this thread is about the new crit system, not about rushes and especially not about starting points / unit density.

I would like to know the exact conditions and effects of every crit in the game. For example:

Wheels/tracks damaged: reduces movement speed by X%, happens on armor penetration
Driver wounded: unit cant move for X seconds, happens on non penetrating shot
.
.
.

I was hoping to see this in the patch log.

It is especially funny that someone disagreed with this post. I guess your thread subject just isn't what you thought it was :rolleyes:

So... anyone know what "internal fragments" does -- exactly?