-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Figures. Ah well, congrats to the wolves. Also, I found the talk about Kaisersohaib of being guaranteed goodie and deserving autolynch quite hypocritical once you took into account that there were what, 3-4 players who couldn't be seers since Euro started the game so fast that they couldn't have sent the first night scan orders. I don't know if wolves took advantage of this or not. Still, no excuse for the abysmal job done by JL and village.
Thanks for hosting EURO.
Also what were you thinking Nautilu? First you TIE on day 1 and costs us a day to parity---then you pull from your arse the most stupid argument I have ever seen, votes me and then leaves and don't come back to see the analysis. We actually had a chance of turning it around, since as I wrote yesterday I actually wanted to switch to jonti, but that could never happen because you just at random decreed that the JL wanted me lynched. When you are the one deciding tho hangs, you cannot just vote random before there has really been analysis---that costed ud the game.
Well the village did a really lousy job.
Why did you do the outing yourself?
It indeed was a really, really bad village performance; it would have been a different game if most of the villagers hadn't been zombies.
Also what were you thinking Nautilu? First you TIE on day 1 and costs us a day to parity---then you pull from your arse the most stupid argument I have ever seen, votes me and then leaves and don't come back to see the analysis. We actually had a chance of turning it around, since as I wrote yesterday I actually wanted to switch to jonti, but that could never happen because you just at random decreed that the JL wanted me lynched. When you are the one deciding tho hangs, you cannot just vote random before there has really been analysis---that costed ud the game.
Thank you.
I'm afraid Nautilu deserves the MVP award for the wolves this game though. ;-)
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
It's not fair that Randakar counts twice for parity
*comfort* now now ..
You were complaining too much about being run up.
I thought there was something to that, the others disagreed but they ended up sending in an order on you anyway.
The others were convinced. I wasn't, but then I was sort of suspecting Panzer because of the timing of the outing (directly after panzer posted), so it's not like my guess was much better.
Close, but dead. I know the feeling ..
Yes. I ended up just AFK'ing out of the game after skobie announced his absence from the thread. The game was pretty much over at that stage.
If there had been more activity I would probably have proclaimed wagon to be good, and tried to make the village go for panzer instead. ;-)
Then again, Kaetje came home yesterday, and as a consequence life has been pretty busy. Not sure I'd have had much time for that anyway.
We didn't.
The cymsdale hunt was me sending in a random.org hunt list (after rerolling it a few times, granted, because I didn't want certain people such as you and madchemist at the top of it), the other hunts were just 'hmm, he looks like a seer!' type hunts.
We definitely would have had to dance a lot harder to get this result, I give you that.
I fully expected to have to go after SPLIT or jonti this day, if only because both me and SPLIT were sitting on Aedan on day one at a time when LK was a really poor place for us to put our vote (on a goodie bandwagon - a good way to look suspicious!) - and the only other alternative was our packmate.
On the last day the village has the best chance to find a wolf simply because of the shortness of the suspect list, but if the village decides to use that day to basically go AFK the odds of actually using that day productively just go way down.
Good analysis takes time, getting a feel for how everyone in the game is actually feeling about the situation is hard and takes a lot of talking, and if even one villager decides to just not listen or be away all day they won't be able to change their vote accordingly either.
I'd love to know what Cody was thinking doing the outing himself.
SPLIT wanted to hunt him there and then, but we went for Madchem because he acted more seerish and I didn't believe anyone could be that kamikaze.
SPLIT wanted to hunt him there and then, but we went for Madchem because he acted more seerish and I didn't believe anyone could be that kamikaze.
I can only assume he thought "lol no one in history has ever done anything this clever" thinking we wouldn't believe he could be the seer.
But the thing is, wolves often hunt the spokesman even if they don't believe him to be the seer, as it disrupts the JL so much. I'm not sure if you guys thought Cody was the seer at some later point, but at first Split was definitely arguing to hunt him simply because he was the spokesman anyway
Nautilu's snipe to create a tie, (which should have been more penalised really, he just had the good fortune to revenge vote someone who got outed and thus semi-cleared him), Cody's early outing, and Kaiser's in my opinion necessary auto-lynching all really burnt the village's chances here.
Tips for future games:
Don't say you didn't get a role pm in the thread, especially if the GM explicitly said in the thread that villagers will not get a pm.
Don't snipe at the last minute to create ties that could lose a day to parity, especially without any justification.
Don't do outings early, and most certainly don't do them if you're the seer.
Do follow my vote-switches. (Seriously, whenever I'm a villager the village pretty much always wins when they're used, and when I'm a wolf the seer can just scan me.)
But the thing is, wolves often hunt the spokesman even if they don't believe him to be the seer, as it disrupts the JL so much. I'm not sure if you guys thought Cody was the seer at some later point, but at first Split was definitely arguing to hunt him simply because he was the spokesman anyway
Nautilu's snipe to create a tie, (which should have been more penalised really, he just had the good fortune to revenge vote someone who got outed and thus semi-cleared him), Cody's early outing, and Kaiser's in my opinion necessary auto-lynching all really burnt the village's chances here.
Tips for future games:
Don't say you didn't get a role pm in the thread, especially if the GM explicitly said in the thread that villagers will not get a pm.
Don't snipe at the last minute to create ties that could lose a day to parity, especially without any justification.
Don't do outings early, and most certainly don't do them if you're the seer.
Do follow my vote-switches.
(Seriously, whenever I'm a villager the village pretty much always wins when they're used, and when I'm a wolf the seer can just scan me.)
Jonti? I thought jonti was by far the least obvious, personally, and madchemist agreed, as he picked split and randy, but had skobelev as the third wolf. Split and randy were quieter, as they are when they're baddies, but jonti's nearly impossible to tell unless you put him in a pressurising situation (and even then, still damn hard) which didn't happen this game.
But yes, I think you could maybe have got a wolf if Nautilu had been more active.
I find it rather amusing (and mildly embarrassing) that when rarely I find wolves these days I tend to get hunted immediately. If I'm not doing that, I'm either wolf or totally clueless villager. Ah well. Anyways, I think I forgot my courtesies, thanks Euro for GMing the milestone game.
Yep, I didn't really want to commit that early but due to *stuff* I had no choice. And I felt that I should vote the same as Nautilu as I couldn't be around myself and splitting the vote would have invited snipe. I did entertain the thought of going after Jonti (with the supposition that THE_SPLIT would be happy with it as it would prevent Jonti from getting too much ahead in the won games apartment) but didn't go with it. Of course it's easy in hindsight to say I should have but like I've said, Jonti is one slippery player.
Figures. I thought about you being baddie for me not getting whacked (then again, I was rather useless once again so good for wolves to keep around) since you felt in one of them earlier games sorry for me getting eaten so often.
In any case I think what you wrote above needs to be quoted and read loudly and clearly. See - so much for Cymsdale getting hunted due to previous game results (that both SPLIT and Jonti would have been wolves isn't important since the reasoning wouldn't have been true).
This. I wanted to hear if Jonti would make his case before I voted but alas, it was not to be. In any case well done by the wolves.
He wasn't very talkative and didn't much respond to PMs.
Yep, especially since the outing came on the second day (2 scans done, one of them wolf) so hunting the spokesman would life for JL tough.
I think I'll add rule to my games (once I get to GMing again, I suppose) about not discussing role or role PM in the thread. Like I said, the autolynch was pretty damn harsh (especially coupled with the 3-4 players not being seers; luckily it didn't matter. It's very easy mistake to make as GM - I've done it myself) but in the long run it should prove to be good decision.
I didn't think Nautilu was baddie even before the scan as that move was way too bold and decisive for his baddie play. That's why I was pretty annoyed when Comm Cody scanned him regardless. I suggested scanning Randy but I (and Nautilu, I think) were never cc:ed any scan orders or anything.
And yeah, vote switches are nice, even if they are initiated by wolf.
Perhaps he was least obvious but since I can't get a reading from him he would have been the target of choice if we had pulled our heads from our ample bottoms. If. I even had written vote to him saying something to the effect that I'll throw the vote on a pure hunch but then didn't go with it.
Yep, I didn't really want to commit that early but due to *stuff* I had no choice. And I felt that I should vote the same as Nautilu as I couldn't be around myself and splitting the vote would have invited snipe. I did entertain the thought of going after Jonti (with the supposition that THE_SPLIT would be happy with it as it would prevent Jonti from getting too much ahead in the won games apartment
) but didn't go with it. Of course it's easy in hindsight to say I should have but like I've said, Jonti is one slippery player.Figures. I thought about you being baddie for me not getting whacked (then again, I was rather useless once again so good for wolves to keep around) since you felt in one of them earlier games sorry for me getting eaten so often.
In any case I think what you wrote above needs to be quoted and read loudly and clearly. See - so much for Cymsdale getting hunted due to previous game results (that both SPLIT and Jonti would have been wolves isn't important since the reasoning wouldn't have been true).
This. I wanted to hear if Jonti would make his case before I voted but alas, it was not to be. In any case well done by the wolves.
He wasn't very talkative and didn't much respond to PMs.
Yep, especially since the outing came on the second day (2 scans done, one of them wolf) so hunting the spokesman would life for JL tough.
Nautilu's snipe to create a tie, (which should have been more penalised really, he just had the good fortune to revenge vote someone who got outed and thus semi-cleared him), Cody's early outing, and Kaiser's in my opinion necessary auto-lynching all really burnt the village's chances here.
Tips for future games:
Don't say you didn't get a role pm in the thread, especially if the GM explicitly said in the thread that villagers will not get a pm.
Don't snipe at the last minute to create ties that could lose a day to parity, especially without any justification.
Don't do outings early, and most certainly don't do them if you're the seer.
Do follow my vote-switches.
I think I'll add rule to my games (once I get to GMing again, I suppose) about not discussing role or role PM in the thread. Like I said, the autolynch was pretty damn harsh (especially coupled with the 3-4 players not being seers; luckily it didn't matter. It's very easy mistake to make as GM - I've done it myself) but in the long run it should prove to be good decision.
I didn't think Nautilu was baddie even before the scan as that move was way too bold and decisive for his baddie play. That's why I was pretty annoyed when Comm Cody scanned him regardless. I suggested scanning Randy but I (and Nautilu, I think) were never cc:ed any scan orders or anything.
And yeah, vote switches are nice, even if they are initiated by wolf.
Perhaps he was least obvious but since I can't get a reading from him he would have been the target of choice if we had pulled our heads from our ample bottoms. If. I even had written vote to him saying something to the effect that I'll throw the vote on a pure hunch but then didn't go with it.
Really, I haven't seen the JL spokesman get hunted all that often, but it has happened both times in recent memory that the seer was his own spokesman, oddly enough. I'd say that in most cases, it isn't worth the risk for the seer to do his own outing (I at least had a reason when I did it, since I was about to be lynched that game).
I went kamikaze there because I thought I'd be hunted based on the timing of the outing anyway. I'd been absent right around deadline, I posted, then Cody made the outing a little bit later. I also tend to choose some unusual scan targets (e.g. Chieron last time I was seer), so Cody is the kind of person I would probably pick. So since I wasn't JL, I figured my death would be more valuable to the village than the seer's.
Tips for future games:
Don't say you didn't get a role pm in the thread, especially if the GM explicitly said in the thread that villagers will not get a pm.
Don't snipe at the last minute to create ties that could lose a day to parity, especially without any justification.
Don't do outings early, and most certainly don't do them if you're the seer.
Do follow my vote-switches.
This makes a pretty good guide for the newbs (arguably, minus the last point). Might be good to post that in-thread next game.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
This.
Especially when I voted Marty when there was a real possibility of him getting lynched, alibi voting is one thing but bringing him closer to LK was another.
Sure I had no intention of letting it stand but as vote bending goes that was decent
Randy was a more likely wolf, until he did some analysis.
Most decent wolves will hunt the mouthpiece unless they have a lead on who the seer is, it's the way of WW - except big games since there's the whole Doc/GA thing
Especially if the outing comes so early in the game. Hunting more or less randomly could get the seer but it's more likely to get unscanned villager, thus benefiting the JL even more.
Indeed. Several of the last villager wins have come because the JL expanded to such a degree that the remaining wolves were found through process of elimination.
Hunting the mouthpiece early prevents this and cripples the JL
I'm not quite sure what 'alibi voting' is supposed to mean as it kind of appeared as a phrase while I was away, and I see it being used in wildly different contexts. But I think it means, most usually, making a vote on a packmate that isn't really dangerous in an attempt to clear yourself. Your vote was dangerous on me, it got me very close to being lynched. Of course, I told you I was fine with it, because I planned a switch anyway, but there was no way for the village to know that, although they could have suspected it.
(I'm not sure I really like the phrase alibi vote though (not directed at you so much as the general community), or the whole move towards trying to condense concepts into short buzzwords or phrases. Brevity is good and all, but at the same time, using these phrases can end up conflating, confusing or distorting the boundaries between different concepts, and personally I prefer to not use that kind of lingo. Similarly, I hate the way every time someone makes a post that's more than say, 4 sentences (and sometimes even shorter), it's called "analysis" which has pretty much stripped the word of any usefulness in recent years and why I try not to use it. A further example would be people accusing others of 'bandwagoning' when they only have two votes or something - joeb hated that.)
That's why the whole context of the vote and voting cycle must be looked at if one is to see the truth behind the vote. Sure, that vote was dangerous in itself but 1) it was still quite some time until deadline and 2) with very good expectation that there will be a switch.
I think I might be somewhat responsible for the return of the term; I didn't know it had fallen out of use in the meantime. And like all phrase/buzzword/whatever it tends to get overused easily.
Well, from 2009-2013 it was used, but moderately, and appropriately. It wasn't a catch-phrase, people would occasionally use it, but would also use several other different ways of describing it. Now it seems ridiculously ubiquitous.
It had to be done. I want to play like a baddie in the beginning of the game, but on the last day the rubber hits the road and I will have to pull out all the stops to win as a villager, so as a wolf I will have to do the same.
The hard part was not pointing at SPLIT and me voting Aedan on day one and going, "Look, that's where your wolves are hiding, isn't it obvious??"
Because really, it probably wasn't, and in any case I wasn't going to draw attention to it.
What really got me though was how somehow the village took my comment about how day 1 was *the* time to vote for marty the wolf and chose wagonlitz as their best suspect based on that.
Jonti did the right thing there. I considered doing it as well, but I thought that that would be going too far out of character for me. I don't, as a rule, vote you early without good reason, and everyone knows it.
Guilty as charged. ;-)
I'm not sure you're not trying to fight windmills here, marty. Language is a pretty malleable thing, and meanings can and will change over time. Trying to fight that is often just pointless.
Exactly, it was a gamble but knowing you were doing to do a swing made it less so. It appeared to be dangerous though which was the whole point.
A vote on SPLIT or Randy wouldn't have had the same effect but that vote was my ace to be played if I'd come under suspicion.
True.
I see it as bending the analysis to create an impression of being a goodie.
Back when AOK invented analysis and I got into it, it was incredibly easy to find wolves with a spreadsheet because they would almost never vote each other. Why would they when except in the case of a close vote nobody much checked the vote records? I started putting votes on packmates to break the analysis and soon so did everyone else, rendering the spreadsheet method near useless.
So now to me it's putting a non-serious vote on a packmate, but with a daft name.
After constantly hearing everyone reminiscing about the 'good 'ol times' when everyone was an ace, it's funny to read something like this. Gives the impression that all the condescending from the oldies was more of nostalgia than actual superhuman wolf hunting skilezz.