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ECM & ECCM
Wagonlitz, You've got ECM and ECCM confused. Again.
ECM is DEFENSIVE. It makes it harder for the enemy to hit you. It works completely differently when applied to ships or missiles. COMPLETELY differently.
- When applied to ships, each level of ECM in excess of the opponent's ECCM (ie: if we have ECM-4 and the opponent has ECCM-3, that's a one-level advantage) penalizes the opponent's shot by -20%. So a five-level advantage (our ECM-5 ships being attacked by ECCM-0 missiles, for example) is -100% and an automatic miss. Excess ECM also shortens the opponent's Missile Fire Control range, by -10% per level of ECM above the opponent's ECCM. Example: ECM-5 would halve the opponent's Missile fire control range unless the opponent could counter it with his own ECCM.
- ECM also applies to any Decoys that we launch from our ECM-protected ships to distract incoming enemy missiles. So his AMM-PD (which is ECCM-0) cannot hit our ship Decoys, any more than it can hit our ships.
- Missiles do NOT get ECM. Never. Instead, they can pay extra tonnage to carry Pen-Aids (penetration aids)... decoy missiles that deploy just as your missile is approaching the target and try to distract some of the enemy's anti-missile PD fire. It is unfortunate that the game ALSO calls these penetration aids as "Decoys", a term that the game already uses to refer to something completely different (decoy targets that an attacked ship deploys to distract incoming missiles).
ECCM is OFFENSIVE. It tries to "see through" the opponent's ECM counter-measures so that you can strike the correct target instead of one of the decoys.
ECCM on Missile Fire Controls counters that "10% shorter FC range per ECM level". It allows you to use your missiles at their full range.
ECCM on the missiles themselves opposes enemy ships' ECM. If the target has ECM-5 and the missile has ECCM-3, then the missile shot is at a -40% penalty. ECCM on the missiles also reduces the effectiveness of the ship's decoys by -10% per excess ECCM level. So ECCM-5 (if unopposed by ECM) would reduce the enemy ship's decoys to half effectiveness.
ECM is DEFENSIVE. It makes it harder for the enemy to hit you. It works completely differently when applied to ships or missiles. COMPLETELY differently.
- When applied to ships, each level of ECM in excess of the opponent's ECCM (ie: if we have ECM-4 and the opponent has ECCM-3, that's a one-level advantage) penalizes the opponent's shot by -20%. So a five-level advantage (our ECM-5 ships being attacked by ECCM-0 missiles, for example) is -100% and an automatic miss. Excess ECM also shortens the opponent's Missile Fire Control range, by -10% per level of ECM above the opponent's ECCM. Example: ECM-5 would halve the opponent's Missile fire control range unless the opponent could counter it with his own ECCM.
- ECM also applies to any Decoys that we launch from our ECM-protected ships to distract incoming enemy missiles. So his AMM-PD (which is ECCM-0) cannot hit our ship Decoys, any more than it can hit our ships.
- Missiles do NOT get ECM. Never. Instead, they can pay extra tonnage to carry Pen-Aids (penetration aids)... decoy missiles that deploy just as your missile is approaching the target and try to distract some of the enemy's anti-missile PD fire. It is unfortunate that the game ALSO calls these penetration aids as "Decoys", a term that the game already uses to refer to something completely different (decoy targets that an attacked ship deploys to distract incoming missiles).
ECCM is OFFENSIVE. It tries to "see through" the opponent's ECM counter-measures so that you can strike the correct target instead of one of the decoys.
ECCM on Missile Fire Controls counters that "10% shorter FC range per ECM level". It allows you to use your missiles at their full range.
ECCM on the missiles themselves opposes enemy ships' ECM. If the target has ECM-5 and the missile has ECCM-3, then the missile shot is at a -40% penalty. ECCM on the missiles also reduces the effectiveness of the ship's decoys by -10% per excess ECCM level. So ECCM-5 (if unopposed by ECM) would reduce the enemy ship's decoys to half effectiveness.
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For each ship, you can set the "Salvo Size" that will trigger the Decoy Launcher.
So our opponent uses both size 1 AMMs and size 12 ASMs.
We can set our Decoy Launcher to Salvo Size 12, and then it will only launch a decoy if attacked by a salvo of missiles that totals at least 12 MSPs.
This might be a single size-12 ASM, or a dozen size-1 AMMs.
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@ Randakar -
Remember that the opponent has an ECM/ECCM advantage.
Our Missile Fire Controls need to be somewhat longer ranged in anticipation of being degraded by his Missile ECM.
Our Active Sensors need extra range in anticipation of being degraded by his Sensor ECM.
... but yes, we could trim that down by a bit. I've made allowance for late game opponents. We won't need that much against the Modrons.
Remember that the opponent has an ECM/ECCM advantage.
Our Missile Fire Controls need to be somewhat longer ranged in anticipation of being degraded by his Missile ECM.
Our Active Sensors need extra range in anticipation of being degraded by his Sensor ECM.
... but yes, we could trim that down by a bit. I've made allowance for late game opponents. We won't need that much against the Modrons.
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Decoys that are not hit by incoming enemy missiles remain deployed, by the way.
They are only removed if and when they get hit.
So even if his AMM-PD fire set off the decoys, they would continue to hang around afterward because the AMM-PD can't HIT them.
Our ECM is too high.
They are only removed if and when they get hit.
So even if his AMM-PD fire set off the decoys, they would continue to hang around afterward because the AMM-PD can't HIT them.
Our ECM is too high.
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Only if the savings are significant enough to matter. This sensor probably is already pretty small.
Size 12, not 12 missiles.
Here is a tweaked version of the Starfire CMD and BL versions:
Starfire-CMD Mk II class Heavy Fighter (P) 413 tons 4 Crew 290.6 BP TCS 8 TH 17 EM 0
17474 km/s JR 8-1500 Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0-0 PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 82% IFR 1.1% 1YR 40 5YR 598 Max Repair 180 MSP
Magazine 0 / 25
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days Morale Check Required
J420.0(8-1500) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 420.0 tons Distance 1500k km Squadron Size 8
2029 FTR Solid Core AM Drive EP144.00 (1) Power 144 Fuel Use 1006.23% Signature 17.28 Explosion 30%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres Range 0.22 billion km (3 hours at full power)
Size 5 Decoy Launcher (5) Decoy Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
Active Search Sensor AS44-R145 (10%) (1) GPS 1392 Range 45m km Resolution 145
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Missile 5
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a None for auto-assignment purposes
Starfire-BL Mk II class Heavy Fighter (P) 413 tons 2 Crew 271.4 BP TCS 8 TH 17 EM 0
17445 km/s Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0-0 PPV 2.7
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 82% IFR 1.1% 1YR 39 5YR 584 Max Repair 180 MSP
Magazine 18 / 5
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days Morale Check Required
2029 FTR Solid Core AM Drive EP144.00 (1) Power 144 Fuel Use 1006.23% Signature 17.28 Explosion 30%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres Range 0.22 billion km (3 hours at full power)
Size 6.00 Box Launcher 1973 (3) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Size 5 Decoy Launcher (1) Decoy Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
Missile Fire Control FC63-R145 (10%) (1) Range 63.6m km Resolution 145 ECCM-5
Avenger 2030 (3) Speed: 40,400 km/s End: 47.6m Range: 116.3m km WH: 0 Size: 6 TH: 134/80/40
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Missile 5
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes
Both the CMD version and the BL version are now down to 413 tons. Both are faster than an Emotion.
The CMD version now carries FIVE Decoys (was: none). That brings its mass up to the same as a BL version.
The Active Sensor and Missile Fire Controls have been adjusted to 7,250 ton targets... the smallest warship we've seen is 7,300 tons.
The jump drive has been adjusted down from 500 tons to 420 tons.
It's the total salvo size that counts. So two size-12 missiles count the same as 24 size-1 missiles.
... although I believe the Modrons actually use size 1.5 for AMMs.
Starfire-CMD Mk II class Heavy Fighter (P) 413 tons 4 Crew 290.6 BP TCS 8 TH 17 EM 0
17474 km/s JR 8-1500 Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0-0 PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 82% IFR 1.1% 1YR 40 5YR 598 Max Repair 180 MSP
Magazine 0 / 25
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 6 days Morale Check Required
J420.0(8-1500) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 420.0 tons Distance 1500k km Squadron Size 8
2029 FTR Solid Core AM Drive EP144.00 (1) Power 144 Fuel Use 1006.23% Signature 17.28 Explosion 30%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres Range 0.22 billion km (3 hours at full power)
Size 5 Decoy Launcher (5) Decoy Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
Active Search Sensor AS44-R145 (10%) (1) GPS 1392 Range 45m km Resolution 145
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Missile 5
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a None for auto-assignment purposes
Starfire-BL Mk II class Heavy Fighter (P) 413 tons 2 Crew 271.4 BP TCS 8 TH 17 EM 0
17445 km/s Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 HTK 2 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0-0 PPV 2.7
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 82% IFR 1.1% 1YR 39 5YR 584 Max Repair 180 MSP
Magazine 18 / 5
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days Morale Check Required
2029 FTR Solid Core AM Drive EP144.00 (1) Power 144 Fuel Use 1006.23% Signature 17.28 Explosion 30%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres Range 0.22 billion km (3 hours at full power)
Size 6.00 Box Launcher 1973 (3) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Size 5 Decoy Launcher (1) Decoy Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
Missile Fire Control FC63-R145 (10%) (1) Range 63.6m km Resolution 145 ECCM-5
Avenger 2030 (3) Speed: 40,400 km/s End: 47.6m Range: 116.3m km WH: 0 Size: 6 TH: 134/80/40
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Missile 5
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes
Both the CMD version and the BL version are now down to 413 tons. Both are faster than an Emotion.
The CMD version now carries FIVE Decoys (was: none). That brings its mass up to the same as a BL version.
The Active Sensor and Missile Fire Controls have been adjusted to 7,250 ton targets... the smallest warship we've seen is 7,300 tons.
The jump drive has been adjusted down from 500 tons to 420 tons.
It's the total salvo size that counts. So two size-12 missiles count the same as 24 size-1 missiles.
... although I believe the Modrons actually use size 1.5 for AMMs.
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We've got a problem with the blockade squadron.
The Modron fleet is positioned on top of the Mechanus => Neutral Zone jump point. If they started moving now, they are only 750 million km from the Neutral Zone => Harmony jump point. They move at about 13,400 kps.
They will be in Harmony in less than 16 hours.
Meanwhile, the planet Harmony is 2.5 billion km away from the Harmony => Neutral Zone jump point. we have a PD fleet that moves at 10,560 kps and a slower Carrier fleet (6,777 kps). It will take 2.75 days for even the faster elements to reinforce the blockade squadron. 50% longer for the slower elements.
We have two choices...
1) If we want a jump point ambush, then we're going to have to stack everybody on the jump point, since they won't be able to REACH it in time otherwise.
2) Otherwise, we should stack everybody in the anchorage (where the STO-PD can help out) and wait for the Modrons to attack.
The Modron fleet is positioned on top of the Mechanus => Neutral Zone jump point. If they started moving now, they are only 750 million km from the Neutral Zone => Harmony jump point. They move at about 13,400 kps.
They will be in Harmony in less than 16 hours.
Meanwhile, the planet Harmony is 2.5 billion km away from the Harmony => Neutral Zone jump point. we have a PD fleet that moves at 10,560 kps and a slower Carrier fleet (6,777 kps). It will take 2.75 days for even the faster elements to reinforce the blockade squadron. 50% longer for the slower elements.
We have two choices...
1) If we want a jump point ambush, then we're going to have to stack everybody on the jump point, since they won't be able to REACH it in time otherwise.
2) Otherwise, we should stack everybody in the anchorage (where the STO-PD can help out) and wait for the Modrons to attack.
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Very nice. That should help survivability a bit
... or this.
On the CMD version, replace four of those decoy launchers with a missile fire control and a pair of box launchers.
The CMD Fighter retains one decoy launcher, the same as the BL version.
Starfire-CMD Mk II class Heavy Fighter (P) 407 tons 4 Crew 302.4 BP TCS 8 TH 17 EM 0
17693 km/s JR 8-1500 Armour 1-4 Shields 0-0 HTK 3 Sensors 0/0/0/0 DCR 0-0 PPV 1.8
Maint Life 0 Years MSP 0 AFR 81% IFR 1.1% 1YR 37 5YR 560 Max Repair 180 MSP
Magazine 12 / 5
Lieutenant Commander Control Rating 1
Intended Deployment Time: 9 days Morale Check Required
J420.0(8-1500) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 420.0 tons Distance 1500k km Squadron Size 8
2029 FTR Solid Core AM Drive EP144.00 (1) Power 144 Fuel Use 1006.23% Signature 17.28 Explosion 30%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres Range 0.22 billion km (3 hours at full power)
Size 5 Decoy Launcher (1) Decoy Size: 5 Hangar Reload 111 minutes MF Reload 18 hours
Size 6.00 Box Launcher 1973 (2) Missile Size: 6 Hangar Reload 122 minutes MF Reload 20 hours
Missile Fire Control FC63-R145 (10%) (1) Range 63.6m km Resolution 145 ECCM-5
Active Search Sensor AS44-R145 (10%) (1) GPS 1392 Range 45m km Resolution 145
Electronic Warfare Jammers: Missile 5
This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a Fighter for auto-assignment purposes
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We do have eyes on the neutral zone side, right? We can start moving now, if they don't jump before we cannot make it back to Harmony in time odds are they won't.
I have nothing against more firepower
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FWIW, my brain flips things, too. I have no control over when it’s going to flip things, and while sometimes I am able to notice there’s something wrong, other times I fail to catch it. I’m probably not the only human with this problem.
I have no hope of ever keeping those straight.
Not a chance! So I coast along here and seldom ask questions. It’s a lot easier for me to just let things like that go now than it was before I got CFS; back then I had a better chance of catching it when I flipped things, while these days I usually don’t have the energy/mental wherewithal. It’s a good thing Wagonlitz has the energy and desire to get it right! How to manage that without interrupting the flow of the discussion is tricky, though.
Could you threadmark your ECM/ECCM posts, @blue emu ? And similar posts where you or others explain things you’ve explained before. That way Wagon and I can check the threadmarks rather than bother you.
FWIW, my brain flips things, too. I have no control over when it’s going to flip things, and while sometimes I am able to notice there’s something wrong, other times I fail to catch it. I’m probably not the only human with this problem.
No, I have the same problem.
If it happens several times in a row though at some point I will point it out.
I have no hope of ever keeping those straight.
It is confusing, I know. It's hard to keep straight for me too, I just try and get things straight in my head before I comment.
Double negatives like ECCM are the worst.
I don't really mind answering questions. I love explaining things. Don't get me wrong. Just .. a little going back to read what has been said earlier would save a few repeats.
Could you threadmark your ECM/ECCM posts, @blue emu ? And similar posts where you or others explain things you’ve explained before. That way Wagon and I can check the threadmarks rather than bother you.
I'm not sure Emu is the right person to ask in the sense that it's extra work for someone who I'd really like to see playing the game instead.
If someone else wants to go through and link such posts then maybe it's ok, just .. realize this is a volunteer thing.
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@Flockingbird @Wagonlitz
ECM and ECCM aren't that difficult. ECM is electronic counter measures. Let's say the enemy is trying to get a lock on your ship with their sensors. ECM tries to fool those sensors making it harder for those sensors to find your ship. ECCM is electronic counter counter measures. ECCM tries to defeat ECM so that your sensors can do their job. It works like this: 1) sensors try to get a lock 2) ECM tries to hide you from those sensors 3) ECCM tries to help your sensors break through the ECM.
Make sense?
ECM and ECCM aren't that difficult. ECM is electronic counter measures. Let's say the enemy is trying to get a lock on your ship with their sensors. ECM tries to fool those sensors making it harder for those sensors to find your ship. ECCM is electronic counter counter measures. ECCM tries to defeat ECM so that your sensors can do their job. It works like this: 1) sensors try to get a lock 2) ECM tries to hide you from those sensors 3) ECCM tries to help your sensors break through the ECM.
Make sense?
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Getting back into it now.
We've got several very obsolete Fortress components (like the ones that made up the Fortress of Doom) still available at Earth. I'll send some via Tug, although it will take quite a few weeks to get there.
Meanwhile, we'll need to interrupt re-provisioning and send everybody to the jump point.
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If the Modrons will just stay right where they are guarding the Jump Point for a couple of months, we'll have time to set up a decent blockade and can start to rest and overhaul some of our ships.
We can't start construction of those Fighters yet, because they require components that we haven't yet researched.
But we can get ready for a production run.
I've queued up a couple of hundred missile factories and a couple of hundred Fighter factories.
We can't start construction of those Fighters yet, because they require components that we haven't yet researched.
But we can get ready for a production run.
I've queued up a couple of hundred missile factories and a couple of hundred Fighter factories.
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It's been nearly an hour since our Scout was whacked, and the Modrons haven't peeked out through the jump point yet.
Looks like they plan to just blockade the jump point.
Excellent. We should be able to win any prolonged war quite easily.
Looks like they plan to just blockade the jump point.
Excellent. We should be able to win any prolonged war quite easily.
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