Talking Turkey: Alternate History from 1936

[TheButterflyComposer]

Chapter 172: The Battle of the Bulge

That implies something significant. What happens if there's a much larger flanking and envelopment later on in the war? Battle of the Bigger Bbulge?

The jumping off point for the Summer Offensive is in green; progress to 1 August 1942 is in blue; broad lines of advance for the next phase in yellow; and intermediate objectives for the phase in orange. For reporting purposes, the offensive has been divided into two sectors: the Adriatic Sector is to perform the proposed encirclement operation; the Northern Sector to clear and secure the southern bank of the Sava River on the flank of the advance.

Ambitious. Let's see...well, shoving the Axis back should make the enemy AI freak out, esepcially if you envelope some units. We want to deny as much coastline for the struggling Italian navy as possible, flush them out to be ruined by the Brits and Amercians.

1st Navy left its base in Izmir at midnight on 1 August, with its first way point being the Southern Adriatic Sea. On the way they would pass a partisan uprising that had just broken out in Chalkida (see subsequent general reporting) and were also advised that a US carrier task force was operating off southern Italy.

Rebel scum. SITH are on it.
Nice carrier force. Composition?

To their south-west, just over the boundary line in the Adriatic Sector, 1 Mtn Div was in Konjic and heading straight to Prozor to begin the ‘left hook’ that would hopefully lead to the pocketing of Axis divisions from Split to its south. It was too early yet to see if there were any enemy units already in Prozor. They would have to fight for the province later that morning, but the details will be reported in the Adriatic Sector summary.

By that evening, 1 Inf Div had successfully driven off their latest opponents in Zenica and were keeping up the momentum of the advance.

Excellent work from the rock climbers. We need to find them some more rocks.

As 1 August began on the southern flank of the offensive, 1 Mtn Div was still in Nevesinje, fighting for Konjic against the German 10th Division. 2 Mtn Div arrived in Nevesinje at 1am and were ordered to assist with the developing attack on Sarajevo in the Northern Sector (reported on separately above). But 'Muzir’s Mountaineers' didn’t need their help, as 1 Mtn Div were victorious just two hours later: they had killed 110 of the defenders for the loss of 61 of their own men.

Very good work. We're pushing ahead and fast. Need to watch out for motorised enemy divs trying to catch us out but so long as we aren't stretched too far we should be okay. Where's the new defensive line going to be if we want to stablise the front again? Or are we non-stop pushing in various places now?

Then later that morning, 1 Mtn Div found some more serious opposition standing in their way in Prozor: the newly arrived (and under-strength) German 10th Division, who they had beaten a few days before in Konjic. The attack went in at 11 am and ended some time later in another victory for Muzir’s experienced troops, but there was no record of the timing or casualties.

Yeah...Kelebek was doing some experiments with Axis concrete...and Axis soldiers. Anyway, until the Italians and Germans think to start adding crosses to their fortifications, they'll start melting when the Turkish forces use the mystic wordphrase (word prhase for the moment is Jeffrey's Jelly Jugs Jollily Jump. If they say it wrong, they explode). I imagine we'll have at least a few days of easier fighting before some religious Italian type figures it out.

Greek nationalist rebels rose in Chalkida – the favourite target for failed Italian naval landings – and moved to attack the small (one x GAR brigade) garrison in Athens at midnight on 1 August. Their ‘attack’ was a foolhardy non-starter: the rebels were completely disorganised and they fell back without firing a shot by 4am. The Athens Garrison (11 Gar Bde) made an immediate counter-attack, which hit home in Chalkida at 5am. It was all over three hours later, with no one on either side even injured during the whole process. The rebels dispersed, but 11 Gar Bde risked continuing on to re-secure Chalkida: the chance of the Italians being able to successfully attack Athens by sea while they were gone was considered minimal.

Bah, the Rebels are on the run! Now to find their base...

News from the Soviets was grim for Kyiv: the single rifle division defending it was under attack from German mechanised infantry and medium panzers. By 5am on 2 August their defence of the key city was in trouble, with no reinforcements for it on the way. By just after midnight early on 3 August, they were retreating – Kyiv was doomed to Nazi occupation.

Hmm, not good, but it does mean the Germans are still focusing on northern Russia, which is as far as possible away from the attack line we're going for.

And in Central Asia, north-east of the Turkish screening positions, there was better news. Soviet divisions and a Romanian division were advancing against light Japanese forces (one Japanese infantry division and two Manchurian militia divisions) and had pushed the Japanese division out of Karatau.

So they can be fought. This is good news for the home front.

News Report – 4 Aug 42: India. Citing documents seized in a raid on Indian National Congress headquarters in Allahabad, the British government have accused Mahatma Gandhi and the majority of his party of working toward "appeasement" of Japan.

Um...well done for pointing out the obvious GB. I expect you to do exactly nothing about it though.

The reporting period for the Adriatic Sector finished with 2 Mtn Div arriving in Prozor at 9am, with over a three-day wait before they would be ready to attack again. 1 Mtn Div was also still stuck there, while the fighting in Korcula continued – with out air support after the air raid was aborted. All through the central line of advance, post-attack reorganisation was slowing momentum, but that could not be helped in the short term. When Turkish forces were ready again, their immediate target would be Sinj and from there Split – to try to close the pocket before too many Axis forces could escape it.

I do believe we might do it! How enchanting. We might not be stopped for quite a while. If Romania is doing well, perhaps we should extend the line back up to the old defence line.

No reports of significance were received during this period from the Romanian, Russian or eastern fronts. The situation on the Patriotic Front at midnight on 9 August is shown below. In Russia and Romania, the exchanges of territory in the eight days since the beginning of the month were more even than they had been in July, when the Axis had made significant advances in Russia in particular. The latest advances of the Turkish Summer Offensive had created a definite ‘bulge’ in the line in just eight and a half days. It was at this point that Turkish planners began to refer to the campaign colloquially as the ‘Battle of the Bulge’.

...hm. That Romanian front doesn't look very good, but the German attack just above in southernmost Russia looks even worse. They may well be abale to outflank all of Romania, at which point we'll have to run back to the furthermost defensive line no matter how well we do in the meantime. How annoying.

Impressive progress in the Turkish summer offensive. You'll definitely encircle several axis divisions if things keep going this way. Lengthening the front as Turkey is doing will also draw pressure away from other parts of the front. I really hope the Turkish army can keep up this momentum, and stabilise the line, before the Germans move too many troops to the area. Regardless, considering the distances involved, the drive to Split should succeed. The improvement of Operational Level Organisation is of course critical to rapid offensive, and I'm glad that the Turkish Army is finally giving this aspect the attention it so badly needs.

Yes I am quite pleased with how its going so far.

It's got a Battleship, a light carrier, two heavy and two light cruisers and two destroyer groups. That's some significant combat power there.

Thanks for pointing out the Battleship, I hadn't noticed that. Well, considering the carrier, it should probably be qualified as a small surface action group, with an escorting light carrier providing air support. I feel like Carrier Task Force is too grand a description for that. Maybe I'm wrong, and any fleet with anything resembling a Carrier in it should be called a CTF?

That's a fairly hefty force considering trhe Axis navy at this point. Good enough to bust a hole through and land troops further up the Adriatic coast???

 

[Bullfilter]

Thanks for pointing out the Battleship, I hadn't noticed that. Well, considering the carrier, it should probably be qualified as a small surface action group, with an escorting light carrier providing air support. I feel like Carrier Task Force is too grand a description for that. Maybe I'm wrong, and any fleet with anything resembling a Carrier in it should be called a CTF?

Haha, given that small group has about twice the ships and more than twice the hitting power of their whole navy, of course the Turks will refer to it grandly! If Turkey had one in the ATL, it would probably be referred to even more grandly with ‘Glorious’ in there somewhere.

 

[Bullfilter]

Impressive progress in the Turkish summer offensive. You'll definitely encircle several axis divisions if things keep going this way. Lengthening the front as Turkey is doing will also draw pressure away from other parts of the front. I really hope the Turkish army can keep up this momentum, and stabilise the line, before the Germans move too many troops to the area. Regardless, considering the distances involved, the drive to Split should succeed. The improvement of Operational Level Organisation is of course critical to rapid offensive, and I'm glad that the Turkish Army is finally giving this aspect the attention it so badly needs.

I'm hoping so - only about a week ahead in play vs reporting, so events for this offensive are far from played out. Research of Op Level Org doctrine to Level 2 is now about half way through and is due for October. Can't wait! Depending on how urgent other priorities are, we may even try to go straight into Level 3 research.

Fluctuations in supply needs are due to a series of factors: The amount of units in combat (units in combat will use more supplies), the amount of units moving into enemy territory (units which are moving use more supplies, especially when moving into enemy territory), air strikes are also quite expensive supply-wise. Then there is the regular fluctuation due to units stockpiling supplies, and then, once a significant stockpile is built up, they start sending back excess supplies, unless they get embroiled in combat.

Thanks - helpful. I know a little about supply mechanics, but not that much really. I developed the supply techs a little early on but haven't touched them for a while: another area I'll have to try to allocate scarce LS to if I can, now that the military (with the additional aircraft and all those Soviet EFs too) is getting quite large and sustained offensive operations are conducted. In general terms, I'm trying to get to the point where I can stabilise the supply stockpile at some reasonable level, and will have to just wear fluctuations in rate of effort at the bottom of the production queue.

The Turkish Air Force is getting quite a beating, getting a hold of Split would really help, as will the purchase of Mustang P-51D's. While I deplore the fact that the contract is going to the capitalist Americans, I have to admit that US Aeroplane designs are significantly ahead of Soviet ones at this time. Their engines are significantly better, as well as their radar equipment and their training procedures. The only real edge the Soviet designs have is their armament. The longer range of Soviet models is simply due to the lower fuel consumption of the less powerful engines fitted. I do hope that the Soviet Aeroplane designs will catch up at some point. We certainly don't want to give up the lucrative Turkish market to the Americans. With each license purchase, there are increased fears that Turkey may well diplomatically turn away from the Soviet Union and towards the USA. I believe Turkey will remain closer to the USSR than to the USA, and support the Turkish decision to buy whatever equipment will be best to help win the war.

The Mustangs will be a while coming, especially with the delays resulting from supply demands of the offensive. I was being a bit adventurous with them in and near the Adriatic: every time I operate near the mainland Italian air bases, the hornets emerge. This was why I was cautious about the proposed naval landings. And that 'recon in force' experiment certainly showed why! Taranto in particular is a thorny problem that will need dealing with if we ever do decide to land in Sicily or Italy proper. I think it would have to be preceded by a sustained air superiority campaign. Much like D-Day in OTL (except in smaller scale).

The excellent job done by Soviet expeditionary forces under Turkish command will, of course, be exaggerated in Pravda, in the hope that the fall of Kyiv remains unknown to the general public. I can only encourage the re-purposing of Soviet propaganda iconography to support the Turkish cause, or even for Perse to chase away unwanted advances.

The EFs have certainly enabled the offensive to be sustained while other parts of the line are held. Pravda should go all out in extolling their heroic virtues! As for Kyiv, it will be interesting to see if it is gradually digested (as other key centres before it) or whether it will remain at the edge of a stabilised line and thus recaptured sooner rather than later.

Interesting how the Americans are using paratroopers to take back Midway. As you said, I hope they can hold on to it this time.

It was a bit of a surprise and while it was good to see Midway regained, one parachute division won't be enough to hold it alone and I'd hate to see them wiped out.

The Soviet front seems to be stabilising, let's hope STAVKA can keep that up, and take back Kyiv.

SkitalecS3

You and Inonu too, Agent Skitalec!

This really is a different kind of battle of the bulge...

I hope it ends better than the German one did!

 

[Bullfilter]

It's a pity the air wings took the liberty to fight over heavy AA batteries. Until that happened I was getting ready to insist on a Zara landing instead of Split, but it seems like a good idea to shelf the idea altogether. Still, would we have had a similar outcome if the intercept area was the one including North Dalmatian Coast instead of South? Maybe there's not a hornet's nest in that general idea. Of course I'm guessing as I read along I'll see we're already onto new stages of the war and new landings some other places would be planned.

Either way, looking at what was in Taranto alone, and even with Turkish closer air bases (that would be large enough to repair that many aircraft, which they're not) it would have taken I think my whole fighter force of all types, all 100% operational, to be able to hold, let alone defeat the fighters Italy can bring to bear anywhere in the Adriatic. And that would leave the rest of the main front without air cover or TAC bombers without escorts. More to be done/thought about before such operations-on-a-shoestring are considered so close to their homeland.

Sarajevo is finally free, the rest of the world's cities and towns oppressed by the axis swine are next in line.

It's a sad state that we're still lacking generals even after the 5 bde divisons reorganization. Turkey is now an aspiring power and hopefully the academies will start graduating more. As a metagame comment, there probably should be a game mechanic that creates ahistorical leaders based on the leadership spent on officer training if the historical ones aren't enough for the amount of leadership spent.

Toüdemür is fighting with flair as Orbay's men say "düşmanı çelikten bir çığın altında ezeceğiz!"; all looks great

Yes, the lack of generals is a bit irritating, but that's a self-imposed player handicap so it doesn't fuss me. I think I'll only get a few per year, so will just have to live with a bunch of acting commanders. Thanks for that translation: I might use it in a subsequent poster - a Steel Avalanche series, perhaps!

Except where we're doing the fighting (Balkans) or at least organizing the most of it (far but now nearer east) situation is grim. If the Germans manage to break around Chisinau it would be difficult to mitigate. I think we're doing the best by attacking as boldly as we can where we can instead of trying to defend as cautious we can where we cannot.

As with the situation in Romania when the last offensive was launched, this was a mixture of opportunity to strike and a need to try to divert enemy attention from our allies - this time the big one! The next week (played but not yet written up) will show what happens on the Romanian-Soviet border ... no spoiler!

Great news about the Mustangs. Even though we lack the theoretical aerospace knowledge at least we're also building some practical industrial know how. Speed is the second most important thing after air attack if range isn't a limiting problem in my experience so here we made a great choice. Nice to have allies with huge industrial bases and R&D facilities They'd better also have some AI, but that's another thing

Sinkiang (I'm not sure where their ruling party's loyalties are, but they might want to call themselves East Turkestan (Doğu Türkistan). Of course if not (and probably this is the case since Shikai is still running the place and not Sabri or Alptekin), we'll inform our diplomatic corps to not to step on any toes and use Sinkiang (Sincan). Do we have a single cav brigade lying around somewhere? We can try peeking around the border to see what's around

Yes, this time for the Mustangs the actual IC required was a bit less than the 'quoted cost': 12 and a bit IC per wings, rather than 15. It pays to concentrate scarce resources. It will still take quite a while to get them, though, and the second wing will be delayed a bit with these production shortfalls. On Sinkiang, I had a quick scan of their infra, and it's pretty poor to non-existent. A cav brigade would have to be hived off 4 Cav Div in Central Asia, but I'm reluctant to do that as they're about to encounter the Japanese advance. One for later, perhaps.

Noyan is Noyaning and Orbay is Orbaying as usual, and if Semenyuk pulls his shit together his spoiling attack can turn out to be able to capture Tuzla after all

And it happened as I thought, Tuzla is also being liberated. Now to correct the map reading mistake we might have to take Semska Mitrovica as well

The response to the Tuzla situation will be a key part of the next update ...

The pocket is forming and even though the Slovakians resist it's now a matter of when then if. IT seems unfortunately Blenheims are fastly becoming obsolete-r than obsolete that can only operate under total air superiority or against enemies without air support.

Just need to get the pocket closed ... the last bit of a marathon is always the hardest! And yes, by themselves the poor old Blenheims are not much chop, especially when there are modern fighters around, air cover or not.

A lot of lessons were learnt in the past days, no training is as instructive as real fighting when lives are on the line. Especially the outdated great war rigid organizational thinking is a big hindrance in mountainous terrain where lines of sight and communication is difficult and smaller on-map distances take longer real time to take. So I observed it's best to train the NCOs and younger officers (lieutenants and new captains) where they can move and decide more independently but according to the general strategical and tactical situation. Also, brigade level and below supply organization should be more dispersed and less centralized. I believe a modernization of our special forces doctrines in these general lines would increase our organization by, let's say, 5% in 4-5 months

These points from the former Moutain Warfare School chief instructor will no doubt assist the doctrine writers back in Ankara.

I like this new format which suits the multithreaded way things are going. I think it would've been difficult to comprehend if it was the other way around (battles starting and continuing and finishing around the front). Nicely written and packed full of excitement, I really loved this new episode. Thanks! Made my day better!

Lovely of you to say so and I'm glad it worked for you. The other method is good for the old immersive "Sh!t, it's all happening at once and this is how it was dealt with" vibe, but a bit too much for this scale and intensity of combat. I resisted summarising/generalising even more, as I still want to retain the feel of the story, even while trying to make it a bit more manageable for reader and writer alike.

After the pocket and the 3 objectives of Split/Zara, Novi Grad and a Sava bridgehead are complete, maybe we'll even have a chance to make a run for Budapest; who knows? So, first the left hook, then maybe a right uppercut

The right uppercut could even come after the pocket (if we can close it) but before the exploitation limit for phase one is reached - dunno yet! There will be a mic of operational and strategic factors to consider. <hmm emoji>

 

[Bullfilter]

That implies something significant. What happens if there's a much larger flanking and envelopment later on in the war? Battle of the Bigger Bbulge?

Oh, something entirely more bombastic and grandiloquent would be found for something like that! No doubt with 'Glorious' somewhere in the code word!

Ambitious. Let's see...well, shoving the Axis back should make the enemy AI freak out, esepcially if you envelope some units. We want to deny as much coastline for the struggling Italian navy as possible, flush them out to be ruined by the Brits and Amercians.

Indeed. And the staff should always be given ambitious objectives just on the edge of plausibility to aim for, in case things go as well as hoped for rather than expected!

Rebel scum. SITH are on it.
Nice carrier force. Composition?

See later discussion on composition (which was included on the map as a graphic, though those need deciphering).

Excellent work from the rock climbers. We need to find them some more rocks.

Yes, there are more rocks up towards the approaches to Italy and in Austria ... one can dream!

Very good work. We're pushing ahead and fast. Need to watch out for motorised enemy divs trying to catch us out but so long as we aren't stretched too far we should be okay. Where's the new defensive line going to be if we want to stablise the front again? Or are we non-stop pushing in various places now?

Going non-stop for now, as we have in the past a new line can be determined if it's needed, aiming for the shortest distance and best terrain available. But for now, it's pedal to the metal and onto Rome and Berlin!

Yeah...Kelebek was doing some experiments with Axis concrete...and Axis soldiers. Anyway, until the Italians and Germans think to start adding crosses to their fortifications, they'll start melting when the Turkish forces use the mystic wordphrase (word prhase for the moment is Jeffrey's Jelly Jugs Jollily Jump. If they say it wrong, they explode). I imagine we'll have at least a few days of easier fighting before some religious Italian type figures it out.

If only there was a secret weapon research slot for the JJJJJ Ray!

Bah, the Rebels are on the run! Now to find their base...

Yes, their lack of faith has been found to be more risible than disturbing. They will be crushed!

​

Hmm, not good, but it does mean the Germans are still focusing on northern Russia, which is as far as possible away from the attack line we're going for.

So far as it goes ... I must keep remebering that their better-than-OTL position in western Russia is counter-balanced by that horrible Japanese invasion in the east. If they do switch forces my way, it will mean they are out of action for a considerable transit time, at least. So it's win-win (I hope ).

So they can be fought. This is good news for the home front.

After a rather dicey period, I'm hoping the Soviets are stabilising again, but that won't really be known for some weeks yet.

Um...well done for pointing out the obvious GB. I expect you to do exactly nothing about it though.

Yes, I had a wry laugh when I read this news snippet and saw Britain accusing someone else of appeasement. They only have a few more years before the Raj is consigned to history in any case.

I do believe we might do it! How enchanting. We might not be stopped for quite a while. If Romania is doing well, perhaps we should extend the line back up to the old defence line.

The old Yeniceri defensive line has now been well and truly surpassed, by even by 9 August. Who knows where things will end up - the main problem will be how thin the line gets if the overall width is extended greatly. Though the Axis will have the same problem - exacerbated if we managed to encircle and destroy a few divisions. It's all getting a little unpredictable and exciting after months of defensive trench warfare.

...hm. That Romanian front doesn't look very good, but the German attack just above in southernmost Russia looks even worse. They may well be abale to outflank all of Romania, at which point we'll have to run back to the furthermost defensive line no matter how well we do in the meantime. How annoying.

As mentioned above to @diskoerekto we'll see what happens in eastern Romania over the next week - and then later, as the situation in Russia and Ukraine will take longer than that to really be clarified.

That's a fairly hefty force considering trhe Axis navy at this point. Good enough to bust a hole through and land troops further up the Adriatic coast???

If only I could make them do that kind of thing reliably!

 

[Bullfilter]

All: still a few days off getting the next TT episode out (Rome first, and it wasn't built in a day ). But then the images for the next TT chapter have been basically done, so it will 'just' be writing up and publishing, to finish off the reporting for the last play session. Further comments and discussion always welcome in the meantime. Thanks for all your support and involvement and for the readers who have taken this little story past the 200k views mark - very much appreciated.

 

[smatsik]

Too bad about having to cancel the landings at Zara/Split but I agree that air power at Taranto is too much to force until it cal be neutralized. I like that the Soviet front seems to be stabalizing and hope that continues. In particular if the threat along the Dniester is removed that will free up I think six divisions that are currently tied down there. If that happens I wonder if it is not time to consider a serious strike at Hungary. My idea is after the current operation finishes to push up from the Sava to a line along the Danube and Drava. From there I see two options depending on what the Axis does. Either a drive directly at Budapest, or using the Dniester forces as an eastern pincer and an attack from the region where the Drava joins the Danube as a western pincer try and see if you can get an encirclement in Transylvania. I know that is ambitious and am not sure the forces would be available to make the Transylvania operation work, but it is something to consider since naval landings in Italy are unlike in the near term. Also it this works it will definitely draw Axis response giving the Soviets more time to regain the initiative on their front.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

No doubt with 'Glorious' somewhere in the code word!

Teh glorious bulge.

Well, we seem to be in the strange postion of smashing straight through the axis lines but the axis are also smashing through russian and romanian lines in places. So who blinks or stabilises first?

 

[Wraith11B]

With the concentration of air power in Taranto making Sicily and Split a bit of "A Beach Too Far," perhaps it's definitely time to consider exchanging Libya's overlords from the Evil Italians to the Glorious Republic? I don't recall if Italy has significant air bases in North Africa in Vanilla, but even if they do, they're then off the line from dealing with your air forces in the primary theater of operations. Also has the benefit of relieving the British of their continued see-saw in Egypt.

 

[diskoerekto]

The response to the Tuzla situation will be a key part of the next update ...

I'm feeling the crisis turned into opportunity and we bagged a division or two

These points from the former Moutain Warfare School chief instructor will no doubt assist the doctrine writers back in Ankara.

Last week when I was travelling in Turkey I drove just past that school Unfortunately it was my turn to drive so I couldn't take any pics though...

The right uppercut could even come after the pocket (if we can close it) but before the exploitation limit for phase one is reached - dunno yet! There will be a mic of operational and strategic factors to consider. <hmm emoji>

maybe when we have some planes to spare, it's time to do those recon flights to see where they have backup troops and where are gaps

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

With the concentration of air power in Taranto making Sicily and Split a bit of "A Beach Too Far," perhaps it's definitely time to consider exchanging Libya's overlords from the Evil Italians to the Glorious Republic? I don't recall if Italy has significant air bases in North Africa in Vanilla, but even if they do, they're then off the line from dealing with your air forces in the primary theater of operations. Also has the benefit of relieving the British of their continued see-saw in Egypt.

Makes sense from a poltcial perspective since we want to claim north africa after the war. Helping/supplanting the british there and building our own networks of support from the local power bases is going to be important. Amercian goodwill is useful but owning/'holding' the land will probably clinch it for us.

Can we cross the med safley and send enough men and planes to ensure that
A) we aren't just throwing them away
B) we aren't just serving as a distraction that allows the british to take the lot from italy. We want a lightning fast campaign that takes all of italian north africa before the british can leave Egypt's borders. Then when we've done that, maybe we can link up with the brits/amercians to go into sicily/france?

 

[Wraith11B]

I'm feeling the crisis turned into opportunity and we bagged a division or two

I'd imagine that at least two, if not four divisions were captured!

Last week when I was travelling in Turkey I drove just past that school Unfortunately it was my turn to drive so I couldn't take any pics though...

Did COL Diskoerekto not have a subordinate handy to take some pictures?

maybe when we have some planes to spare, it's time to do those recon flights to see where they have backup troops and where are gaps

Unfortunately, there's no concept of "strategic depth" for the AI... units are either on the front line or moving to where they expect to need units.

Makes sense from a poltcial perspective since we want to claim north africa after the war. Helping/supplanting the british there and building our own networks of support from the local power bases is going to be important. Amercian goodwill is useful but owning/'holding' the land will probably clinch it for us.

Can we cross the med safley and send enough men and planes to ensure that
A) we aren't just throwing them away
B) we aren't just serving as a distraction that allows the british to take the lot from italy. We want a lightning fast campaign that takes all of italian north africa before the british can leave Egypt's borders. Then when we've done that, maybe we can link up with the brits/amercians to go into sicily/france?

Since much of the Italian navy is at the bottom of the Mediterranean, I don't think we have to worry terribly much about surface actions. Turkish destroyer groups together with our battlecruiser should prove to be a sufficient deterrent to whatever remains. The real kicker is air attack as we witnessed recently, but I think that North Africa is out of range of ground-based interceptors and their Naval aviation assets might be caught out of position. I'd have to look at the most recent NAfrica map (I'm having trouble finding it!) but we might be able to obtain coverage from British assets in Malta.

My recommendation is for a quick "end around" just behind the front from Athens. Cutting the forces off at the front will cause them to wither on the vine, and when or if the British decide to catch up and move through our sector (which they might not be able to do) territory they gain will transfer to us.

EDIT: looking at the most recently updated map, we could likely execute an unopposed landing against Tobruk. This would not only secure a port for supplies, but also almost immediately cut off the Italian front line, as well as limiting how much territory the British could retake. Further, I don't recall if we have any light armor assets available (aside from 4CAV in Afghanistan), but we could capture bases closer to everything where we might launch against later on.

 

[diskoerekto]

Did COL Diskoerekto not have a subordinate handy to take some pictures?

hahaha I was with my parents who are still fluent with a mobile phone camera but not have quick reflexes to snap an instant photo before we lose a good angle to take a photo.

the compound, being an army training base, doesn't have a lot of places you can shoot pictures from. one can even get into trouble taking pictures if the camera is a professional one.

I'd imagine that at least two, if not four divisions were captured!

crossed my fingers & waiting

Unfortunately, there's no concept of "strategic depth" for the AI... units are either on the front line or moving to where they expect to need units.

Really? It's a shame they make such a wonderful game and leave it so unfinished still yet. So once we're clear of the initial line it's a race to the capitals?

EDIT: looking at the most recently updated map, we could likely execute an unopposed landing against Tobruk. This would not only secure a port for supplies, but also almost immediately cut off the Italian front line, as well as limiting how much territory the British could retake. Further, I don't recall if we have any light armor assets available (aside from 4CAV in Afghanistan), but we could capture bases closer to everything where we might launch against later on.

I was about to make the same suggestion to the post of @TheButterflyComposer above. Landing close to where the line is would limit how far the British can take control. If there's an undefended port which is also close to the front line, that would be the best option.

The question here would be if Libya is worth spending any resources on. It's not connecting us to some other place and it doesn't have anything in it for us.

Maybe trying to find a corner of Italy that's too far away from their closest airbase (I doubt such corner exists) can also be a useful pastime activity

 

[Bullfilter]

Quick reply on the North Africa option: you may recall this was one of the suggestions put forward by Churchill at the in-game Tehran conference. A kind of a Libyan Operation Torch option. Iirc, pretty much everyone lambasted it at the time! Maybe Churchill was being more far-sighted than it seemed at the time! I don’t want to use those marines just as line reinforcements, so a ‘training mission’ in North Africa could be a viable option. And Vichy remains neutral.

Now, if we wanted to be provocative, we could hit declare war on them and occupy Syria, which we’ve long wanted to take ... mwahaha. Marines on the beaches, a light land attack via Iskenderun. Then reload for Libya, I doubt Vichy would be sending much support from Tunis. Some US objectives to see what they’d be willing to do ...

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I was about to make the same suggestion to the post of @TheButterflyComposer above.

There's another quote for the album.

The question here would be if Libya is worth spending any resources on. It's not connecting us to some other place and it doesn't have anything in it for us.

Depends on whether bailing out the british, makingus look like the new power in north africa to the locals, and providing a beach head for the comintern and the allies to navvally invade italy and france is worth it to you.

I think it is, as I said, if we can do it quickly and efficiently.

Quick reply on the North Africa option: you may recall this was one of the suggestions put forward by Churchill at the in-game Tehran conference.

...
Well now it's a brilliant piece of SITH strategy and insight. We cab always accuse the British of attempting to rewrite history if they complain.

Maybe Churchill was being more far-sighted than it seemed at the time!

Maybe it was those turkish 'cigars' making him 'see' things.

Now, if we wanted to be provocative, we could hit declare war on them and occupy Syria, which we’ve long wanted to take ... mwahaha. Marines on the beaches, a light land attack via Iskenderun. Then reload for Libya, I doubt Vichy would be sending much support from Tunis. Some US objectives to see what they’d be willing to do ...

Hmm. Interesting idea, and makes sense politically and militarily for turkey given this is the tried and true tactic they've used in the past of the game to get their empire...

Perhaps instead we should secure italian africa first, so the brits and amercians focus on planning southern d day whilst we hover up vichy africa and middle east whilst they arent looking?

 

[diskoerekto]

Depends on whether bailing out the british, makingus look like the new power in north africa to the locals, and providing a beach head for the comintern and the allies to navvally invade italy and france is worth it to you.

Well bailing the British out doesn’t help us a lot since they’re happy camping in fortress Britain. The locals are insignificant. And Libya is only the beach head to invade swaths of sand dunes, not Europe. There’s mare nostrum in between

It might be better than not using the marines at all, but not very useful either.

 

[Bullfilter]

Further background relating to the above discussions. Any decisions or additional recon will have to be reviewed at the start of the next play session (16 August), after the next chapter. Food for thought in the meantime.

1. From the Tehran 'Big Four' Conference of 1 February 1942: Plan Torch Proposal (Chapter 161)

"It was at this point that the British revealed their hopes for support in North Africa. They advocated American amphibious landings in North Africa. Not in distant (and still neutral) Vichy French holdings in Morocco or Algeria – but in Libya itself! This, Churchill argued, would badly undermine the Italian presence, ruin their supply lines and lead to their entire force in North Africa being pocketed and destroyed, let alone relieving pressure on the Suez Canal."

Plan Torch – Britain’s suggestion for landings in North Africa, to be conducted by the US, with Turkish support if forthcoming, some time by the middle of 1942.​

2. Syria - a Map Survey, August 1942

Reconnaissance would need to be done to establish what, if any, Vichy garrison units were in Beirut or elsewhere along the coast or (if possible) in Damascus. But they were deemed unlikely to be able to resist a corps of three US Marine divisions, even in an opposed landing directly on Beirut. The rest of the coastline either side of Beirut was inhospitable terrain. Other units would need to be deployed to Iskenderun for a drive from the north (perhaps one of the marine divisions, even the partly-created Turkish 1st Marine Division. It would probably also be done without air support.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Plan Torch – Britain’s suggestion for landings in North Africa, to be conducted by the US, with Turkish support if forthcoming, some time by the middle of 1942.

This does imply they don't want turkey to do it alone or try to claim the land, because they know we'll keep it if we get it.

However, vichy france does have nicer turf to steal, so maybe we should focus on them first. Syria, then clear out the deserts. Grab as much as possible, then figure out after the war what we want to run directly and what should be left to client states.

 

[Wraith11B]

I (as the US liaison here) suggest a sort of "Strategic Marine Expeditionary Leapfrog Transit" (SMELT) operation, to be completed in X phases:

Phase 0: Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) of the North African coastline. I'd avoid Vichy for now, let the sleeping dog lie.

Phase I: Initial SMELT into Tobruch with Marine forces. During this phase, we cut off supply of the Italian forces in North Africa by removing any worthwhile territory by capturing all infrastructure capable of bearing logistics overland to their forces, and assault into their rear areas. This also has the benefit of likely causing the Germans to lose a heavy armor brigade, and several Italian infantry divisions. By rapidly moving towards the Egyptian border, we can keep the British gains limited.

Phase II: Consolidate on Tobruch after defeating Axis forces threatening Egypt. It is unlikely that there are significant holding forces behind the lines, pending the ISR by our assets.

Phase III: SMELT to Benghasi. Given our ISR efforts--and perhaps this could be a tasking for intelligence services to undertake--I don't think either Tobruch or Benghasi are within range of land-based air from Italy, or even Sicily. Don't waste time trying to occupy the desert or territory between the two (that can come later) unless there are Axis forces which need to be destroyed. This could be were our 1 TAG (the Blenheims) could really shine, as there is unlikely to be enemy counter-air to chew them up, nor is there any ground-based air defense artillery to prevent bombings.

Phase IV: On Order, SMELT to Tripoli. This phase is characterized by the removal of the last stronghold of the Italians in NA. This port is certainly within air range of land-based air in Sicily, and thus can likely wait until we have the build-up of air superiority units to defend our skies.

These operations build up experience in our Marines and make them ready for operations in Syria or Tunisia (should they become necessary).

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I (as the US liaison here) suggest a sort of "Strategic Marine Expeditionary Leapfrog Transit" (SMELT) operation, to be completed in X phases:

Phase 0: Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) of the North African coastline. I'd avoid Vichy for now, let the sleeping dog lie.

Phase I: Initial SMELT into Tobruch with Marine forces. During this phase, we cut off supply of the Italian forces in North Africa by removing any worthwhile territory by capturing all infrastructure capable of bearing logistics overland to their forces, and assault into their rear areas. This also has the benefit of likely causing the Germans to lose a heavy armor brigade, and several Italian infantry divisions. By rapidly moving towards the Egyptian border, we can keep the British gains limited.

Phase II: Consolidate on Tobruch after defeating Axis forces threatening Egypt. It is unlikely that there are significant holding forces behind the lines, pending the ISR by our assets.

Phase III: SMELT to Benghasi. Given our ISR efforts--and perhaps this could be a tasking for intelligence services to undertake--I don't think either Tobruch or Benghasi are within range of land-based air from Italy, or even Sicily. Don't waste time trying to occupy the desert or territory between the two (that can come later) unless there are Axis forces which need to be destroyed. This could be were our 1 TAG (the Blenheims) could really shine, as there is unlikely to be enemy counter-air to chew them up, nor is there any ground-based air defense artillery to prevent bombings.

Phase IV: On Order, SMELT to Tripoli. This phase is characterized by the removal of the last stronghold of the Italians in NA. This port is certainly within air range of land-based air in Sicily, and thus can likely wait until we have the build-up of air superiority units to defend our skies.

These operations build up experience in our Marines and make them ready for operations in Syria or Tunisia (should they become necessary).

I would agree with this plan if put into action. Any campaign we plan in the middle east or north africa has to accomplish the following:

1) expand Union control over more territory that we plan to annex/control postwar.
2) deny any new territory, war gains or value to the British. So far as possible, they must not be involved in these theatres as it compromises our intended sphere of influence.
3) destroy as many axis units as we can and prevent anything of worth escaping back to their motherlands for their home defences. If possible, we wish to completly obliterate everything the european axis members have outside of their own lands and the patriotic front.

An added point for Vichy France:

4) if we do attack the collaborators, we must do it all in one go, give them no chance to react or send units to help the axis in europe. In practice, this means we must invade Syria and Algeria at the same time. Thus, securing Italian Libya first would be very helpful.

The only help we want in this campaign are the Americans. They want to be reassured we will work with them after the war, they want order to remain in these territories and they hate the british. They can be trusted at least enough to help get our african empire back. Given how france is prone to socialism, we may have to/be forced to by stalin to give at least Algeria back after the war in exhange for other things...which makes it all the more important that the British don't touch anything themsevles.