Talking Turkey: Alternate History from 1936

[Eurasia]

@Bullfilter - that last image has something naughty in it. Bottom right corner.

 

[nuclearslurpee]

@Bullfilter - that last image has something naughty in it. Bottom right corner.

@37th Armoured div

Gotta check the usernames not the flags

 

[37th Armoured div]

Hey, one of the last kills in WW2 was by a Hungarian CR.42 against a USAAF P38 Lightning.

And of course, the po-2 was the first and only biplane to have a confirmed kill on a jet.

but, I did some research on the cr.42 and apparently the incident happened in 1944, so it may be a biit of a stretch to call it one of the last kills in ww2

 

[37th Armoured div]

@37th Armoured div

Gotta check the usernames not the flags

Wait do I need to remove it? If I remember they were fine with the iron cross but not the swastika right?

edit: oh shit
Edit2: I can’t change that until morning, hopefully the comment will still be up by then

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

@Bullfilter - that last image has something naughty in it. Bottom right corner.

Le gasp

 

[Wraith11B]

And of course, the po-2 was the first and only biplane to have a confirmed kill on a jet.

but, I did some research on the cr.42 and apparently the incident happened in 1944, so it may be a biit of a stretch to call it one of the last kills in ww2

Sorry, I meant by a biplane.

 

[Bullfilter]

@Bullfilter - that last image has something naughty in it. Bottom right corner

Wait do I need to remove it? If I remember they were fine with the iron cross but not the swastika right?

edit: oh shit
Edit2: I can’t change that until morning, hopefully the comment will still be up by then

Le gasp

Not me. @37th Armoured div will need to fix it.

You can either just delete the image or edit it to remove the Swastika. Please try to do so as soon as you can - I understand it was not intentional and in other historical contexts they are included all the time, but the Forum is quite strict on it. Plus I have some family history (in both the UK and Poland) that makes me a bit averse to it, shall we say.

 

[37th Armoured div]

Right, I’ll be on it asap

 

[37th Armoured div]

image removed
preparing an unfortunate thumb

 

[37th Armoured div]

The previous poster was apparently lost to time along with the bottom picture, it was one of the better productions that we had made in recent time, so i had a propagandist remake it, but he had his finger over the camera. Oh well, i can't really expect any more from them, can I?

 

[Bullfilter]

tHe pervious poster was aparently lost to time along with the bottom picture, it was one of the better productions that we had made in recent time, so i had a propagandist remake it, but he had his finger over the camera. Oh well, i can't really expect any more from them, can I?
View attachment 737661

Thanks mate, it got what it deserved. Reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark!

 

[37th Armoured div]

Thanks mate, it got what it deserved. Reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark!

Being honest, I don't actually get that reference, whats it refer to?

 

[Wraith11B]

It was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, but close enough!

 

[37th Armoured div]

Oh right, now i remember. Thanks

 

[Bullfilter]

Being honest, I don't actually get that reference, whats it refer to?

It was Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, but close enough!

There's that too, but I was also thinking of the one in the first movie where the Ark is in the hold of the ship, and it burns off the Swastika from the box the Nazis had put it in. But I couldn't show the actual scene without breaking the Forum rules!

Put the two together, and you have it!

 

[Wraith11B]

Ah, totally forgot that one! Indeed. A good catch.

 

[Midnite Duke]

I have finished pg. 167. First, God Bless Markkur, the Patron Saint of this AAR. Is the Soviet excursion in Turkey to assassinate Turkish citizen, Perse, the match that fires the slow burning, long fuse that is attached to Turkish/Russian relations? My vision of the after war has Turkey leading the Rome and Cairo Pacts. After turning the lands of Spain, France, Italy, Central Europe and Balkans, Turkey leads the Med. nations (all 50-75) in a general defense pact with the primary purpose of stopping Russian and American aggression. The Cairo Pact is a defensive/economic grouping of Sunni nations (keep everybody else small and more dependent). The long term goal is freeing our oppressed brethren (Turkish Sunnis like Kazakhs, Turkmens, etc.) in Central Asia from Russian OPPRESSION! Hopefully the US OSSA (Office of Stopping Soviet Aggression) will finance the Turkish financing of statelets to bring down the Satanic Soviets (thus providing deniability to both nations, may not be plausible). Of course Cyprus and Macedonia are added to Turkey as well as Rhodes and other nearby islands.

 

[37th Armoured div]

I have finished pg. 167. First, God Bless Markkur, the Patron Saint of this AAR. Is the Soviet excursion in Turkey to assassinate Turkish citizen, Perse, the match that fires the slow burning, long fuse that is attached to Turkish/Russian relations? My vision of the after war has Turkey leading the Rome and Cairo Pacts. After turning the lands of Spain, France, Italy, Central Europe and Balkans, Turkey leads the Med. nations (all 50-75) in a general defense pact with the primary purpose of stopping Russian and American aggression. The Cairo Pact is a defensive/economic grouping of Sunni nations (keep everybody else small and more dependent). The long term goal is freeing our oppressed brethren (Turkish Sunnis like Kazakhs, Turkmens, etc.) in Central Asia from Russian OPPRESSION! Hopefully the US OSSA (Office of Stopping Soviet Aggression) will finance the Turkish financing of statelets to bring down the Satanic Soviets (thus providing deniability to both nations, may not be plausible). Of course Cyprus and Macedonia are added to Turkey as well as Rhodes and other nearby islands.

We cannot afford to piss of our Allies, though perhaps, if we were to offer Stalin a valuable enough prize (Paris or Prague), we could trade for these lands, though this is unlikely this would be seriously considered by Turkish high command

 

[37th Armoured div]

We cannot afford to piss of our Allies, though perhaps, if we were to offer Stalin a valuable enough prize (Paris or Prague), we could trade for these lands, though this is unlikely this would be seriously considered by Turkish high command

And any war against the Soviet steamroller will clearly only end one way, if we wished to fight them we would have joined the axis

 

[Bullfilter]

OK, here's some more feedback to previous comments that weren't already referenced or self-explanatory discussions. This means TT is the next cab off my rank and I'll soon be playing through the next month, then seeing how many chapters it requires to write up.

It should be fun - wish me (and the UGNR) luck!

If we want to invade Syria, we need to go all in, as there’s a decent chance that operation torch is on its way, and an allied victory with liberate France as the war goal will kick us out. I vote we strike first into Syria, and into Tunisia, allowing us to cut off the British before torch and any potential Sicilian campaign

We discuss it every so often - but every time it comes to actually assigning troops to the task, the priority for starting a new war against Vichy for Syria (and maybe other bits of their North African holdings) is never high enough to warrant diverting those troops from bigger things: eg holding in the Balkans, then taking down Hungary and Slovakia, helping the Soviets by invading southern Poland, repelling Axis counter-offensives or preparing for an invasion of Italy/Sicily, etc.

And I'm pretty sure there will be no Torch in this ATL: the US are on our side and Vichy remains neutral. I doubt the British will do it themselves. Whether we might need Algeria to take down Spain remains a moot point for now, but will come into consideration in due course: especially if we later do have the spare troops to secure Syria at the get-go. Otherwise, I'm feeling leaving them as an after-thought to occupy at our leisure appeals.

As for Sicily, if the Brits did try it that would be good, I think. They can pay the blood price, draw down significant forces to repel them, then we land somewhere in the centre or boot of Italy to cut them off, while pressing them in the north via Venice etc. But it could all change with events and developments. All options remain on the table.

Finally an aerial success, after so many grueling months! Great job the aviators!

It was welcome indeed. I kept trying, but the three new wings really did help establish sufficient numbers and rotation to be able to sustain a bit of temporary air parity for a while and save many lives on the ground.

Maybe also try adding new wargoals if possible? for Austria, or Czechia, or Bavaria, you know wherever we can claim and pray falls to us in a conference?

I'll have a look. But really expect the Soviets to grab most of it and for them to pay a price in blood and treasure we're unable to match.

Oh...actually this makes some sense. If the AI wants to get some British units to the far east, they may twig that vichy France is still around and neutral and might go very hostile when they get in range...

Then again, the british have not managed to navally land anywhere very well yet...so Syria and the middle east could still be ours. Gives us an excuse to go after North Africa too. Could even help with capturing Spain if that comes first...

Per above, I'll believe a British attack on Vichy when I see it. Right now, they potter around the Italian periphery and are getting their Navy destroyed by the Japanese, while they (wisely) ship more ground units to stabilise India. Which Turkey is also happy enough to see. Let them both take each other down.

Well, they did manage to land in Sardinia, so there is that.

Indeed they did. I'm still hoping for a smallish British invasion of Sicily, in which juices we might let the both of them stew for a while if it happens.

Well, the Soviet steamroller has finally gotten in gear! It looks like the Germans and Finns are on borrowed time, so fortress Italy shall soon be all that's left. I have to imagine your air force has pulled the bulk of the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica to the south. Have there been a lot of air battles in Poland and eastern Germany?

It's grinding the Fascists' bones to dust! Exactly the strategic plans from all those years ago. I'll have to check re recent air battles elsewhere (it will show the last week, anyway).

Ever so slowly, Trieste is being enveloped, and at a relatively low cost in manpower. This seems like a worthwhile avenue of advance, allowing the Turkish Army to eventually move towards Venice, or hold in favourable terrain on the Venezia-Belluno, Udine-Tolmezzo or Trieste-Nova Gorica line. To the East and North , the Ljubianica river between Ljubljana and Zagreb, and then the woodlands between Zagreb and the Danube provide a reasonable defensive line, and a move Westward by about 120-150km in this area would be nice to secure the Eastern end of the Alps and shorten the line if inroads are made into Northern Italy, but it's not vital. For now saving that manpower seems key.

I agree, whether it turns into a 'hold by the nose and kick in the ass' thing (Patton-stye) or can be turned into a major thrust, the northern approach is necessary. The time is coming where another attempt to 'straighten the line' and, if opportunity presents, dissolve their defensive front and press forward a little, beckons. The forces are massing both west and north of Zagreb. And it may become necessary to 'damn the manpower' and just press ahead, but I would like some R&R if it can be managed.

I would also like to commend the Turkish Air Force, which have made another brilliant appearance in those Adriatic skies. The sheer number of enemy aeroplanes will probably mean that this level of aerial operations isn't sustainable in the long run, and another rest period might be on the cards soon. That said, with the new La-7 wings they do seem to hold their own a bit better in those heroic 3-1 dogfights. Rest assured that Soviet aeroplane designers are working relentlessly to bring about our next generation fighter models, which Turkey will be allowed to buy, of course. Even without more new planes, losses in the air seem to have been disproportionately in Turkey's favour, which is a testament to the skill and experience of Turkish pilots, especially those flying outdated machinery.

Very true - this was a temporary surge to save lives from Axis ground attacks as well as to test the skies again and gain operational experience. Some pretty heavy damage among the fighters was incurred and must be repaired. A new offensive, even a limited one, will require refreshed air wings.

The Red Army's advance into Eastern Prussia and from the South into former Czechoslovakia and Germany proper is impressive to say the least. Berlin is tantalisingly close, and the German Army seems unable to stem the red tide. They might not know it yet, but unless they have another Army group in reserves the Wehrmacht is doomed now. This is truly the beginning of the end for the European Axis.

I half-expect the Germans to do to the Soviets what they did to us and scramble a defence, but our allies have a big hammer to crack the German nut(s) and a sickle to cut them off at the knees. I'm looking forward to watching how the respective AIs handle the Battle for Germany.

Considering the renewed British interest in Sardinia, one can only assume an invasion of Italy will be on the cards relatively soon. This would lead me to conclude that Turkey should now be focusing the majority of it's efforts on Italy, while holding the line to the North. But with the preparations for an amphibious operation well underway, I'm sure Turkish high command is already moving in that direction.

As noted above, it might happen with the British and would be a welcome diversion. It may also flush out remaining Italian navy units and their NAV bombers, which I'd also be happy to see the British blunt for us.

The Marine Corps is almost assembled in Pola and the fleet would not take long to put in place. A little more air base and radar building on the Adriatic would be useful (to handle to repair bill that will ensure) and then repositioning the fighters in a configuration for naval landings and covering the lodgements will also be necessary (INT forward, longer range M/R and TAC can use bases a little further back). Then there are the exploitation troops we'll need (mix of standard, mech and perhaps a mountain div for central Italy).

The Naval losses by the Allies in the Pacific might motivate the Royal Navy to concentrate more on the Med for now, until they can build back up and send a large enough fleet East. That might even reinforce my previous point on the British potentially going for Italy now. If only they would concentrate on Australia and New Zealand, then we could rest easy and mop up Europe together, Soviets and Turks, hand in hand. (with the other behind their back holding a knife, for the negotiations on who gets which pieces...)

I'm not sure (and find it hard to tell) what the relative British priorities are likely to be. I think they will concentrate on India for a while, but really not sure if they'll try sending what remains of their fleet further east to contest the Japanese.

All quiet on the espionage front. The silence before the storm perhaps?

Let's hope Cennet is doing well, and that Turkey may reduce it's manpower deficit soon,

Yes, the spy stuff will continue to be largely game driven. Cennet will probably be fine, but it's a dangerous game.

OOC: The discrepancy in manpower numbers can be explained by the following:
1. Land units that have a manpower number higher than their number of men x 1.000. Infantry/Motorised (3,33), Mountaineers/Paratroopers/Marines (4), Support brigades (1,33-1,76). This is mitigated by Militia, Garrison, Armour, etc. having a lower manpower number than 3. The 1 MP = 1.000 men is just a rule of thumb, and depending on which of your units take the bigger beating the actual ratio will vary.
2. Manpower lost in Air combat, though with just 1 MP per fighter wing, this should be relatively low compared to losses on the ground.
3. Attrition.
4. Fluctuations in reporting due to units dropping off the radar (when they're not getting supplies), or being in battle.

Thanks very much.

I can’t decide whether I want to call this plan operation red torch, or operation cockblocked husky

Haha! The UGNR military bureaucrats will probably settle on something far more mundane and formulaic.

I wonder if by now the old models of our license-built aircraft may be starting to cost us on the aviation front? That may be the root of the issues we have been having this season.

A little, but numbers are a things too, and they still do their thing well enough. The Hawks though are just used to escort the IL-2s and rarely get a run these days - though their days may come again.

The Soviets of course understanding that their May is the Westerners' June.

Something like that!

Not sure I've said it before, but the IS-2 is a serious candidate for the best-looking tank of WWII.

It's why I keep finding photos of them. Very tasty - nicer lines than the brutal and blocky lines of the Tiger, though the Panther is far prettier than the Tiger.

It may actually technically be you. Air wings on intercept missions apparently will choose to overpursue if set to "Aggressive" mode for the mission, whereas setting them to "Defensive" mode tend to keep them in position over their assigned defensive targets. Not documented anywhere, but I believe this is how it works.

Right, still learning the air combat niceties, so will check next time. No idea what they were set to in the last round (probably whatever the default is).

The air force winning the day is truly an amazing development in the war histories.

Even a fighting draw is a victory compared to the last year or so, especially after the Luftwaffe joined in strength.

So close to stable, and probably a deficit of about 10% of our total strength, so we are still fighting at 90%+ capacity across the front which is a solid position to be in compared to the Axis stooges.

I think so - especially against the Germans. The Italians will be better off, but we'll see if we can do something about that. Also, if they get too many units caught by the Russians in Germany, their MP may start to plummet - I hope!

Looks like the decision worked out well, the Soviets are advancing on all fronts with equal ferocity now.

I think so. Finland will go down and then that will be another victory objective in the bag comparatively early. Wouldn't want to have to double back to get it later (via the Soviets, which would be a clumsy AI redeployment), when we're trying to go for France and Spain.

This would be a fun AAR if you did it in HPP, without so many vanilla methods for cheesing everything. There was actually a HPP Australia AAR many years ago but all the pictures broke so it's not readable anymore.

If I did do Australia (in whichever HOI version or mod) I'd probably set it for max difficulty and place some other 'realism limits' on it. In Vanilla 3, that might be taking a later start date, or extensive use of AI guidance early until some decision point, or whatever. But a long way from there yet. I'd probably want to finish three of my current four before starting a new AAR, and it might not be that one.

@nuclearslurpee is right about making sure to set air assets to defensive. I don't get why that setting is like that if they don't also have a setting for offensive/defensive (ie, offensive counter air: going out and killing their planes over their territory, versus defensive counter air: staying over friendly territory and killing any invaders) to prevent stupidity like that.

Yes, will look into it. Often it can be useful, where they tackle something in a nearby province quickly rather than having to switch something against it a bit late. But other times ...

A great propaganda victory to be sure. Now that we have (mainly) sane propagandists we can make use of this. I’m thinking of a policarpov flying over a wrecked Stuka

"sane propagandists": is that an oxymoron?

Probably the "Air Intercept" and "Air superiority" missions are to fulfill these two roles, but got bungled up somewhere along the way and never really fixed.

No doubt.

As @Midnite Duke has been going through the thread recently and liking all of my old replies, I’ve realised just how long it’s been since I’ve sat down properly and caught up some more. I’ll try and make some time next week to get a few more chapters in – particularly as in the interim I’ve actually learnt how to play HOI! Now all the juicy war action will even make sense!

Thanks for the stern chase - always appreciated. I know it can take time to catch up on a long-established and substantial body of AAR work!

It's a pretty fun game to play. All about being as prepped as possible, and then watching to see if that made any difference. That's the GP play.

For minors, it's more like very carefully and nervously trying to push your luck as far as possible before joining the toughest side you can get. Which Turkey has done very well here.

Yes, once you get reasonably familiar with the game, it's (for me) all about finding a game situation that will be challenging and fun, whether playing solo or for an AAR. I got lucky with this one, and the enemy AI has generally played pretty well by its usual standards.

it turns out that replacing a significant chunk of propagandists ruins morale, and makes it harder for propagandists to meet deadlines, Should have known that, being a propaganda manager and all that

Haha - the only morale ruined is of the propagandists - the public are either oblivious, or happy if they do notice!

The previous poster was apparently lost to time along with the bottom picture, it was one of the better productions that we had made in recent time, so i had a propagandist remake it, but he had his finger over the camera. Oh well, i can't really expect any more from them, can I?

Nicely done.

I have finished pg. 167. First, God Bless Markkur, the Patron Saint of this AAR. Is the Soviet excursion in Turkey to assassinate Turkish citizen, Perse, the match that fires the slow burning, long fuse that is attached to Turkish/Russian relations? My vision of the after war has Turkey leading the Rome and Cairo Pacts. After turning the lands of Spain, France, Italy, Central Europe and Balkans, Turkey leads the Med. nations (all 50-75) in a general defense pact with the primary purpose of stopping Russian and American aggression. The Cairo Pact is a defensive/economic grouping of Sunni nations (keep everybody else small and more dependent). The long term goal is freeing our oppressed brethren (Turkish Sunnis like Kazakhs, Turkmens, etc.) in Central Asia from Russian OPPRESSION! Hopefully the US OSSA (Office of Stopping Soviet Aggression) will finance the Turkish financing of statelets to bring down the Satanic Soviets (thus providing deniability to both nations, may not be plausible). Of course Cyprus and Macedonia are added to Turkey as well as Rhodes and other nearby islands.

Yes, we really miss Markkur

I won't spoil too much re Perse and that situation, but sympathy for citizens doesn't run too deep if they are suspected of treason and duplicity ...

There will be a big post-war conference and settlement (should we win) if/when the victory objectives for the campaign are met. Will be interesting indeed to hypothesise about the future possible trajectories of the new order that emerges.

We cannot afford to piss of our Allies, though perhaps, if we were to offer Stalin a valuable enough prize (Paris or Prague), we could trade for these lands, though this is unlikely this would be seriously considered by Turkish high command

I think a general principle of post-war Turkish statesmanship will be to try to take a middle course through the minefield of the post-war order, which isn't likely to be a very pluralistic one, but in which the US and Britain could still stand as unconquered democratic great powers. And possibly a Japan that concludes some kind of white peace to end the war also standing as a major eastern node of power. Then there's China and the possibility of post-colonial rising powers like India. The Soviets will be powerful - but more powerful than the rest of the world, should they antagonise enough others? Hmmm ...

And any war against the Soviet steamroller will clearly only end one way, if we wished to fight them we would have joined the axis

For this ATL, certainly. And the game mechanics don't allow you to change sides anyway. But the hypothetical next/future war (hot, cold, warm or by proxy) could be a crazy thing to contemplate.

Thanks everyone for all the discussion and comment, I'm off to fire up the game and see where December 1943 takes us.