• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Chapter CXXXIII: From the Ministry with Venom
Chapter CXXXIII: From the Ministry with Venom

The Monarchist Air Force's demand for a 'modern' monoplane fighter caused a degree of consternation in the Air Ministry, primarily because they were somewhat short on such things themselves. A fair minded observer would say that the Royal Air Force had a grand total of two types available that met such a description; the Supermarine Spitfire and the Hawker Hurricane. The Supermarine factory had only just starting delivering Spitfires to the RAF over the summer of 1937, most of the pilots were still converting across from their previous biplanes and none of the squadrons had been 'stood up' for front line service. More seriously the 'shadow factory' that had been slated to support Supermarine in producing the Spitfire, the vast Castle Bromwich facility, was still a construction site. For as long as that was the case there was no possibility of the Air Staff allowing any Spitfire production to be diverted to Spain, which left the Hurricane as seemingly the only option. With Hawker's main factory working flat out, and having drafted in Westland Aircraft to boost output, there was in theory enough production to allow a modest number to be sent to Spain, however the reality was more complicated. While the government had no serious concerns about exporting the Hurricane airframe to Spain, indeed it's rugged and 'basic' nature made it a good fit for the expected conditions and ground crews to be found in Spain, the engine was a very different matter. The Rolls Royce Merlin was considered one of the Air Ministry's 'crown jewels' and so was up near the very top of the Restricted List. While Hawker were confident that they could re-design the Hurricane to take a new engine, a hurried check confirmed that there was no engine of similar enough size, weight and power available. The least bad option, the Napier Dagger (as used on the export versions of the Handley Page Hampden), had a broadly similar power output but was taller, narrower and, as we have seen, was air-cooled where the Merlin was liquid-cooled. Fitting the Dagger would require the entire front half of the Hurricane fuselage to be re-designed to channel airflow over the engine to keep it cooled, then the radiators would have to be removed and various related sundries removed or relocated. At which point the essentially 'new' design would need to go through flight testing and acceptance trials and, assuming it passed, a new production line setup and started, even rushed this was 6 months work if not nearer a year, an utterly unacceptable timescale for the impatient Monarchists.

xAZLayv.jpg

A Hurricane of No.73 squadron having it's Merlin III engine removed for routine maintenance by the squadron ground crew at RAF Digby in Lincolnshire. The early marks of the Merlin were not the triumphs of power and reliability the later versions would become, but they were still very much world class engines, easily on a par with their German (Daimler Benz DB-601) and American (Allison V-1710) rivals and markedly superior to the inline efforts of France, Italy or the Soviet Union. This perhaps explains why the Air Ministry was as much concerned about engine design secrets leaking back to Hispano-Suiza in France as the potential for German espionage. It is also worth noting that, aside from the security concerns, there were practical problems with sending the Merlin to Spain, not least the lack of engineers to help train up the Monarchists in servicing and repairing the engine. Rolls Royce were exceptionally busy at this time, in addition to their aero-engine development work they were supporting their nascent Australian branch as it worked up for starting Merlin production in Melbourne and working with the Royal Armoured Corps on tank engines. The fight over which of those should be delayed, or even cancelled, to allow Merlins to be sent to Spain was not one any party relished, which was another persuasive reason to send (almost) any other aero-engine to Spain.

Under pressure to come up with something to send to Spain, if only to ensure the Monarchists didn't get any ideas about buying from someone else, the Air Ministry widened it's search. They soon honed in on the prototypes produced for an earlier design specification, F.5/34, which had called for a single seat, eight gunned fighter designed to catch and intercept fast, high flying bombers. Crucially the aircraft was not intended for use by the home based Metropolitan RAF but was intended for the euphemistic 'Empire service in hot, tropical climates', the government considering it a breach of diplomatic etiquette to blatantly state it was intended for use in the Far East against the Japanese. As a result the specification had called for the use of an air cooled radial engine, the improved reliability and easier maintenance were deemed important for aircraft that would be deployed at the end of a very long supply chain. The Air Ministry was attracted to this feature of the specification, it meant none of the designs used the Merlin so they hoped there would be no concerns about exporting advanced engine technology to Spain. Technically they were correct in this, but unfortunately instead of export concerns they instead found a whole new set of domestic engine related problems to complicate the issue.

The F.5/34 specification had been on the cusp of cancellation after the Abyssinian War and the subsequent Imperial Defence Conference. The success of the hastily 'desertified' Hurricanes in North Africa had convinced the Air Staff that a special 'hot climate' fighter was not required for technical reasons and the maintenance and logistics staff were becoming vocal in the keen desire to keep the number of types in service to a minimum. The subsequent decision to base Hurricanes to Singapore had removed the final raison d'être of the specification; building permanent RAF fighter bases, and their associated warehouses and workshops, meant complex engines could be supported in the Far East. In the medium term the situation would only improve as Australian production of both the Hurricane and the Merlin engine would provide a 'local' supply of replacement parts and aircraft to any Far Eastern squadrons. The RAF duly withdrew their interest in the specification and ordinarily that would have meant it was cancelled, but then the Admiralty intervened and the programme was saved by the Fleet Air Arm, the 5th Sea Lord and his staff being interested in the designs for their own reasons. As we have seen, the Royal Navy had two brand new but 'obsolete' biplane aircraft coming into service (the Gloster Sea Gladiator and the Fairey Swordfish) but only one aircraft development budget agreed with the Treasury (the funding from for the Blackburn Skua programme, which would be 'rolled over' once the Skua entered production). The F.5/34 prototypes offered a way to solve the dilemma of which replacement to fund first, if the FAA 'borrowed' the results of the RAF specification then they could get a monoplane fighter into service on the cheap and put the development funds towards the Swordfish replacement. What made the prototypes particularly attractive to the FAA were their air-cooled radial engines and emphasis on ease of maintenance, both features that the FAA had decided were vital in carrier aircraft. The small size of the prototypes, allowing them to fit on the lifts of the older carriers and be packed away in large numbers in the hangars, was just a bonus. There was a degree of irony in the newly independent FAA choosing to revert to the 'bad old days' practice of accepting the RAF's cast-offs, but such are the ways of defence procurement.

While four designs had been submitted under the F.5/34 specification, the FAA were quick to dispose of two of them as being too far from entering service; the Bristol Type 146 prototype wasn't scheduled to fly until early 1938, while Martin-Baker were even further behind and their MB-2 wasn't expected to emerge till the summer of that year. Interestingly the MB-2 would still manage to stagger on, the Air Ministry directly funding a prototype against a brand new, purpose written, specification. While the MB-2 had many clever features and details it was not exactly a cutting edge design, as an example the initial proposal drawings showed a fixed under-carriage, so it's survival was as much due to concerns in the Air Ministry about the lack of competition in fighter design as the potential of the aircraft. Bristol's Type 146 would not be so fortunate and the prototype would never be finished, in a sign of the return to more 'normal' priorities the team's designer and engineers would be split between working on the Type 153 cannon fighter and the Type 143 airliner project. The Air Ministry agreed with the FAAs judgement on those rejections (in private at least) and so concentrated on the two survivors the Vickers Venom and the Gloster F.5/34. The difference in designation should not be over-analysed, they reflected neither progress or preference but instead Gloster's habit of not naming an aircraft until it had actually been ordered and the Vickers' approach of giving their designs names early on to make them stand out.

AQ9hJf2.jpg

The Bristol Type 143 'Blackpool', the civilian airliner version of the Blenheim bomber. After languishing during the Abyssinian War the Type 143 would become one of the post-war priorities for the Air Ministry and so for Bristol. A great deal of 'encouragement' was applied to the Bristol board by the government and they duly gave the Type 143 the same more powerful Perseus engines as the Blenheim (hammering another nail into the coffin of the Aquila engine), named it the Blackpool and launched it onto the civilian market. The design team were then further 'encouraged' to look at a stretched version that could take advantage of the extra power of the Perseus to add payload and range. Quite aside from the usual desire to keep work flowing to factories that had been busy with emergency war-orders, there was a bigger picture priority. The government was very keen to see Empire airlines flying Empire (British) aircraft not foreign imports, the Blackpool was one of the first tangible outputs of this policy.

The Gloster design was very much the FAA favourite, partly because Gloster was the more experienced carrier aircraft designer but mostly because the design had been at the perfect stage when the time of the FAA taking over the specification. While the Vickers prototype was flying and the rest were still drawings Gloster were just producing the full scale mockup. This made it relatively straightforward for the engineers to 'navalise' the design (adding a catapult point, arrestor hook, folding wings, naval radios, etc) with minimal interruption to the programme. These modifications added weight to an aircraft that had only been projected to have average performance to start with, however we now come to the trump card as far as the FAA were concerned. Originally designed around the Bristol Mercury engine, for the prototype this was swapped out for it's more powerful sleeve-valved twin the Perseus. Aside from adding ~100hp extra power, more than enough to over-come the extra weight of the naval aviation equipment, this change meant it shared an engine with the fleet's new dive bomber, the Blackburn Skua, a very real plus given the limited workshop space on most of the carriers and the desire to expand air groups as far as possible. The prototype first flew in the summer of 1937 and proved to have performance broadly equivalent to the RAF's new fighters; a ~320mph top speed, excellent climb performance and a gratifyingly short take off and landing requirement. This was enough to cement the Gloster as the favourite, while the Venom would go through navalisation the Fifth Sea Lord was clear this was only a backup against something catastrophic emerging during acceptance trials or deck landing testing of the Gloster design, provisionally named the Griffon. In contrast the Air Ministry soon became convinced that the Vickers Venom was the best option to send to Spain. The prototype had been flying since the previous summer and had been thoroughly tested at full war load, demonstrating comparable performance to the prototype Hurricane, giving away a shade in top speed and climb while being slightly more manoeuvrable. Certainly it had far less long term potential than the Hurricane, or even the Gloster Griffon, but for a fighter that would be in combat the moment it arrived in Spain that was not a serious issue, especially compared to it's main attraction; it was ready to go into production immediately.

Sadly for the civil servants at the Air Ministry two problems soon cropped up; the thorny question of who would build it and the perennial concern of engines. To deal with the latter, the Venom was designed around the Bristol Aquila, an engine the Ministry had spent the previous months diligently trying to kill off. To be blunt the Aquila was just too small, at 'only' 15.6 litre displacement it could never produce the 1000hp+ power levels the Air Ministry expected future aircraft required while being too complex (and expensive) for the trainer market. Sleeve valve radials were hard to make, requiring specialist machine tools and operatives that were constantly in short supply, so the Air Ministry had no intention of allowing Bristol to waste precious effort on an engine with no future. The production issue was similar, Vickers were heavily committed to delivering the ordered Wellesley bombers and developing the Wellington, with any spare effort supporting work on the Spitfire (Supermarine being a subsidiary of the vast Vickers-Armstrong group). None of those were considered cancellable or indeed delay-able, the Spitfire was deemed a very high priority for home defence and the Wellington was the lynchpin of the aero-industrial plans of the entire Empire, having been promised to the RAF, RCAF and RAAF with licence production planned for both Australia and Canada.

ztLjog6.jpg

The Vickers Venom, it's squared off, constant chord wings and the sharp angles of it's polyhedral metal stressed-skinned body clearly visible. The Venom was the final evolution of the Vickers Jockey, a late 1920s 'interceptor fighter' design that had proved ahead of it's time when it lost out to a pair of biplanes; the Hawker Fury and Bristol Bulldog. Since then Vickers had refined the design, finally ditching the Wibault corrugated skin construction for a modern, all-metal, semi-monocoque fuselage, adding details like a retractable under-carriage and a proper canopy to the cockpit and crucially upgrading the engine to the latest sleeve-valve Bristol Aquila. This was connected to the Venom's most unique feature, the engine mounting was hinged at the end of the cowling, allowing it to swing sideways to provide quick access to the rear of the engine and all the ancillaries.

The solution the Ministry found was elegant, though had they been aware of the problems it would cause down the line they may have been less keen to embrace it. There was an alternate engine available and a manufacturer who had the capacity and was familiar with the engine and stressed-skin metal construction. The manufacturer was Airspeed Ltd, one of the smaller but up-and-coming manufacturers, who had established a solid reputation for airliners and trainers but had never cracked the military market. The engine was the Wolseley Libra, a nine cylinder radial like the Aquila, of similar weight and dimensions but lacking the sleeve valves and so marginally down on power. The Wolseley Aero Engine company was mostly notable for being the personal property of Lord Nuffield who, having acquired extensive War Office contracts through Morris and Nuffield Mechanizations, intended to expand and starting winning work from the Air Ministry. Airspeed and Wolsely had an established partnership and Airspeed already considered the Libra and the Aquila to be essentially interchangeable in their own designs. Vickers reluctantly bowed to pressure and sub-contracted the re-engine design work and manufacture of the 'Spanish Venom' to Airspeed, with a handful of the Venom's designers seconded across to assist the process. Airspeed's recently constructed Portsmouth factory made a maximum effort and managed to get the first production aircraft to Spain in time for the climax of the La Coruna offensive.

The Monarchists were initially somewhat nonplussed by the Venom, they had expected at least Hurricanes and the more dementedly optimistic had hoped for Spitfires. Receiving an aircraft they had never heard of and that the RAF wasn't using did not go down well, had the British not offered the first batch on free trial (and the situation above La Coruna not been so desperate) it is likely they would have been rejected out of hand. Once the Monarchists pilots got their hands on them however, the objections melted away as fast as the Basque airforce. While the Libra engine meant it could only achieve a shade over 300mph that was still over 120mph faster than the Basque's Bulldogs and Corsairs, this advantage along with the Venoms excellent manoeuvrability and heavy (for Spain) firepower of 8x 0.303' machine guns had predictably devastating results. The advantages over the Soviet supplied aircraft were not so pronounced but still decisive; the Venom was the first Monarchist aircraft that could reliably intercept the previously uncatchable Tupolev SB bombers and had a 20mph speed advantage over the Soviet I-16s, as well as four times the firepower and wings that could manage high-g turns without snapping off. It is far to say that the Spanish Venom was very much a hit with the Monarchists, to the relief of the British government in general and the Air Ministry in particular. This just left the minor issue of dealing with all the problems it's birth had created in the British aero-industry and the consequences of breaking 'The Ring'.

--
Notes:

First off, fans and members of the old UK Co-op AAR may recognise the Gloster Griffon, because it remains a good idea. ;) In Butterfly the land based Gladiator got cancelled during Churchill's cull of the biplanes so Gloster had more time, part of that they used to fit folding wings to the Sea Gladiator (which was FAA so not affected by the cull) and the rest they used to work on F.5/34 which, even after being navalised, is still 6months ahead of OTL and probably going to end up in the next generation of CAGs on RN carriers.

In OTL Hawker did produce plans to re-engine the Hurricane with a whole range of different engines, primarily because the Merlin was in such demand everywhere it was becoming a bottleneck to production. It came to nothing because the amount of design and testing work involved was considerable and the efforts better spent on the Hurricane replacements that Hawker were working on. On a related point in OTL Westland were building the entirely nondescript Hawker Hector, a biplane army co-operation aircraft that soon got phased out, as that also got killed by Churchill that freed up Westland to help with the Hurricane. Let no-one say these things aren't thought through.

Onto the meat of this, the F.5/34 specification. In OTL this lingered on for quite a while, certainly long enough to get all the prototypes flying, in part this is because in OTL the Spitfire and Hurricane weren't rushed into service so a 'backup' design was more justifiable. Here it gets killed by the RAF early, but saved by an FAA looking for a fighter. The Martin-Baker MB-2 was interesting if flawed, but would lead to some much better aircraft, not least the superlative MB-5, so as stated the Air Ministry are funding the designer as much as the aircraft.

For the avoidance of doubt, yes a Sea Hurricane would probably be a better choice for the FAA and was discussed in OTL as early as 1937. But where would things be without cockups and pointless institutional politics getting in the way? Besides the Gloster effort is not without it's advantages and I've had the FAA make the big leap to accept a single seat fighter, so they had to get a few things 'wrong'.

The Bristol Blackpool is new(ish). A Type 143 prototype civilian airliner was created and it flew around attracting admiring glances, but it never got the newest Bristol engines and Bristol and the Air Ministry were too focused on re-armament and bombers to push a civilian airliner. Here it is being re-engined with some Perseus', tided up a bit and pointed at the Empire and wider world airliner market. It will do well and not just because of government pressure for Empire airlines to buy it, it will beat the Lockheed Electra/Super-Electra to the market and is faster and more fuel efficient as well. It's no DC-3 (too small for starters) but so much of the DC-3's reputation and dominance rests on the thousands of ex-military models that were dumped on the civil market post-war, besides there are other designs aimed at that bit of the market, more of which later.

OTL Wolsley did make the Libra engine and it got bench tested and type approved at about the right sort of power but never flew. This is because Nuffield realised he was getting nowhere with the Air Ministry and so abandoned aero-engine making in late 1936 before selling the factory and plans to Scottish Engineering mid-37 (who appear to have mostly disappeared). Lord Nuffield is something of a bete noir of the British war effort, his main contribution was really cocking up running the Castle Bromwich Spitfire Factory and producing the Nuffield Liberty engine which cursed many an otherwise innocent tank. More on all this in the next chapter though.
 
  • 2Love
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Wow! That's some superlative work on the R&D for the pressing needs of the air forces engaged over Spain... I don't know if you've ever watched it (I'd imagine that you have) but whenever I read a "Butterfly" post I do so hearing it in my head in the voice of that narrator. This of course being a British-centric AAR, works well, I think.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Still watching.

Interesting as usual look at Perfidious Albions nerfing of Allies. ;)

I am usually more interested in naval pron...
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
When I read "Spanish Venom" I had the uncanny feeling that it was some kind of "Spanish Flu" take two but worse. :D
 
  • 1
Reactions:
When I read "Spanish Venom" I had the uncanny feeling that it was some kind of "Spanish Flu" take two but worse. :D

Kind of hard to imagine how you could get worse than Spanish flu. You'd have to have ebola go global or have all the sewers cease working to get a massive cholera pandemic.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Whoa, really nice air porn. Seems great development for both FAA and Monarchist. So the FAA currently has Gladiator/Swordfish/Skua lineup?

I didn't read much of co-op AAR but I remember Gloster Griffon :)

EDIT:

If I remember correctly, Skua isn't OTL design, but was modified to serve as only a dive bomber, not OTL fighter/bomber combination?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I wonder if japan will view the strengthening of British colinues and dominions in asia as a challange or whether they'll be scared off and go after china and russia first?
Or maybe they'll call the bluff in a different way and go after french Indochina to see what the west will do?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I wonder if japan will view the strengthening of British colinues and dominions in asia as a challange or whether they'll be scared off and go after china and russia first?

I'd imagine Japan would no doubt be more cautious about British holdings in the Asia, And in opportunistic manner as per usual, if France was in a loosing fight, would demand Indochina if it was in War with China.
Though perhaps the fact that British colonies are better protected, it would also make Japan have more strategic plans that rely on things more than just morale and self sacrifice for Emperor. Or maybe even attempt to circumvent US blockade by trying to buy its oil from Brits if Brits were willing.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Wow... I believe that is a new pinnacle of research involved, I'm impressed!
I actually forgot that there even were parts of plot like the world cup... I still have trouble adjousting to your majestic pace.

Keep it up! :)
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I'd imagine Japan would no doubt be more cautious about British holdings in the Asia, And in opportunistic manner as per usual, if France was in a loosing fight, would demand Indochina if it was in War with China.
Though perhaps the fact that British colonies are better protected, it would also make Japan have more strategic plans that rely on things more than just morale and self sacrifice for Emperor. Or maybe even attempt to circumvent US blockade by trying to buy its oil from Brits if Brits were willing.

Well if we were to conjecture for a moment (I can imagine pip and other ww2 buffs putting their heads into their hands and mumbling 'he's at it again')...

France is being a bit weird TTL. Standing up to Germany took guts and its rebuilding an alliance in Europe without Britain. A clever potlcian or party and a few newspapers could probably use this to instil some nationalist pride and get rid of some defeatist feelings left over from the war. However, they were taxed to their limits in standing up to Germany and Germany doesn't know that. They're just seeing a New France, invigorated, strengthening, getting alliances in Europe surrounding them and further setbacks with the defeat of Italy and the embarsment of the Ruhr. So I'd imagine Germany would be very interested in the Japanese making trouble for them in the east, and tie up some resources. Make them suffer an embarismg defeat to make them lose heart. Or at least split everyone's attention between east and west (their one advantage now over Russia, the allies and France is that they only have to focus on the west for now).

Saying all that, the Japanese 'alliance' with Germany was really one of convenience. They'd have to both agree to fight the same enemy to get it to work. And we don't know what Japan is going to do. But I doubt they would be the ones to declare war first, except in China. Thoughts?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Well if we were to conjecture for a moment (I can imagine pip and other ww2 buffs putting their heads into their hands and mumbling 'he's at it again')...

France is being a bit weird TTL. Standing up to Germany took guts and its rebuilding an alliance in Europe without Britain. A clever potlcian or party and a few newspapers could probably use this to instil some nationalist pride and get rid of some defeatist feelings left over from the war. However, they were taxed to their limits in standing up to Germany and Germany doesn't know that. They're just seeing a New France, invigorated, strengthening, getting alliances in Europe surrounding them and further setbacks with the defeat of Italy and the embarsment of the Ruhr. So I'd imagine Germany would be very interested in the Japanese making trouble for them in the east, and tie up some resources. Make them suffer an embarismg defeat to make them lose heart. Or at least split everyone's attention between east and west (their one advantage now over Russia, the allies and France is that they only have to focus on the west for now).

Saying all that, the Japanese 'alliance' with Germany was really one of convenience. They'd have to both agree to fight the same enemy to get it to work. And we don't know what Japan is going to do. But I doubt they would be the ones to declare war first, except in China. Thoughts?

Japan is an interesting country to be fair, as TTL "Strike South Doctrine" has lost most of its initial appeal to IJN due to fact that British, the main foe of the region, has increased its force, and is no longer completely (relatively) unguarded resource region.
However "Strike North Doctrine" still suffers from lack of roads and supply lines in Manchuria to completely be able to challenge USSR. And the simple fact that Japan lacks the oil to produce and develop armored counters to Soviet Armor.

On with War on China, it all depends whenever or not Japanese factions in IJA act as foolish as they did on OTL. With international changes showing that Brits are not a paper tiger at all due to Abyssinian Crisis, Japan might be less willing to commit due to sheer size of China. However if there were to be major Chinese civil unrest, Japan would no doubt act. Alternatively, Japan would prop and influence Warlords to its sphere. to use them as a way to circle around China.

As with German Alliance, Germans have history with China already. and in TTL I doubt Germans want to loose their invests in China the similar way they did with OTL. Simply due to fact that Germans are being challenged by seemingly strong France trying to pocket them in. so why risk it with betraying Chinese for Japan. This way China would also be much more likely to not supply workers to French in case total mobilization in style WW1.

On France itself. We just don't know quite enough how it would go around TTL, it has challenged Germany, and it is holding its own. However it still suffers from its war exhaustion of WW1 despite that. However, this France will not most likely loose as fast on land, simply because Germans have to worry of all French allies on the borders. However if Blitzkrieg through Belgium happens, or some similar massive wartime crisis (millions dying again perhaps. or that Germans defeat all its allies first?), it might mean that rather than loose to Germany on field, is that France might attempt to cut the war short to reduce the loss of life.

Similarly though, if France does not go full Commie, Japan might be the one that gets enticed to French Alliance with either Resources, Trade in case US embargo, mutual distrust of Anglo, colonial concessions, guarantee of free hand/ in China, or if China and Germany simply get too friendly with each other.

Though these also can be influencers for a renewal of Anglo-Japanese treaty. (save the distrust of Anglo or specifically because of it)
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Though these also can be influencers for a renewal of Anglo-Japanese treaty. (save the distrust of Anglo or specifically because of it)

The problem with that is the fact that the alliance broke down on American insistence during the Washington Treaty. If Japan chooses to reinvigorate that treaty, then suddenly you'd have a pissed off USA to deal with. I don't think that Britain would want that at all, honestly, because of the ever tightening relationship with their former colony.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The problem with that is the fact that the alliance broke down on American insistence during the Washington Treaty. If Japan chooses to reinvigorate that treaty, then suddenly you'd have a pissed off USA to deal with. I don't think that Britain would want that at all, honestly, because of the ever tightening relationship with their former colony.

True, true. GB is strong and getting stronger but this isn't 1830. They want at least one big ally and some local ones to help out. France isn't quite gone but is clearly doing their own thing in Europe and basically can only be trusted not to declare war on GB and probably help contain fascism in general. Outside of them, they ain't buddying up to Russia or Germany without a spectacular disaster that renders most of this AAR a shaggy dog story. So that leaves America and Japan.

Both have issues. America is still really jealous-I mean suspicious of the Empire, and though they actually do seem to want to be friends and allies, it would be completely on their terms which frankly is far too close to otl for pippy to go with.
Japan meanwhile has arguably a longer history of friendship with GB that both sides cocked up after ww1. However, racism is going to be a stumbling block on both sides and put simply, they both want to control east asia and there can be only one.

China has a history of getting the stuffing kicked out of it by GB and GB-led alliances so even though the british do have a lot of concerns and money tied up there, they'd have to put an awful lot of effort in to get a worthwhile ally out of all that.

So all the big boys in the world either hate the british or want their stuff or both. I suppose we could go for a typical GB AAR stsnce and build a northern european alliance but that usually only nets Belgium, the netherlands, norway and portugal as a wildcard. Whilst that does give you an even bigger navy to play with. It also ties you down in an awful land position in europe that realistcally the british are probably never going to honour again.

All in all, there are some choices out there but all of them have at least some problems to work around/accept. Presumably this is one of the reasons why the british are investing so much into getting an eventual ally out of spain. At least then GB and portugal would have a third member to help them out.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The problem with that is the fact that the alliance broke down on American insistence during the Washington Treaty. If Japan chooses to reinvigorate that treaty, then suddenly you'd have a pissed off USA to deal with. I don't think that Britain would want that at all, honestly, because of the ever tightening relationship with their former colony.

True, however as @TheButterflyComposer said. Great Britain is quite lacking in allies. And USA Is still in its Isolation phase historically.
And honestly, my opinion is quite similar to Composer's as a whole.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
And honestly, my opinion is quite similar to Composer's as a whole.

Careful, I collect such quotes.

Yeah I wouldn't rattle on about this but GB needs friends and can't just mooch off an empire it's trying to pull back together. Honestly, glorious isolation isnt a good idea right now. So who is it going to be? Or are they going to be like france and make a load of mini alliances instead?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Finally, after two years I've finally managed to get through the entirety of this AAR. I'd avoided commenting on this due to fear of spoilers. But now that I've finally caught up I can say that this is easily not only my favourite AAR. But on of my favourite reads, ever, of anything.\

Excellent work El Pip, I can't say I'll always be able to pitch in to the conversation. (Given my knowledge of the period is broad but also very shallow) But I'll always at least my one of the silent readers. And given my general distrust of notification systems anyway, I'll likely be checking in regularly anyway. And so avoid that particular pitfall for those who go a while without commenting.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Tsk, almost forgot to mention: I'm rooting for the French/US influenced moderates on the republican side, the British backed Carlists on the other side. But most of all I'm rooting for a victory for the Basques. Not a large victory, but something. Poor fellows have been there since before Rome rose from it's seven hills. They deserve some kind of break by now.


(And if the Basques flip to the Carlists and together they outmaneuver those evil facists politically and defeat those godless communists in the field than isn't that just convienent)
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Wow! That's some superlative work on the R&D for the pressing needs of the air forces engaged over Spain... I don't know if you've ever watched it (I'd imagine that you have) but whenever I read a "Butterfly" post I do so hearing it in my head in the voice of that narrator. This of course being a British-centric AAR, works well, I think.
Butterfly should absolutely be narrated in a British accent. The classical choice would be Laurence Olivier, but he is inconveniently no longer with us. I think Jeremy Irons would be an acceptable substitute.
(I think there is a bit missing from your post as you never said what "It" is. Or I'm missing the reference, which is also possible)

Still watching.

Interesting as usual look at Perfidious Albions nerfing of Allies. ;)

I am usually more interested in naval pron...
I think you are being a tad harsh on the British. The Spanish Venom is easily the best fighter aircraft south of the Pyrenees and arguably on a par with the best the French AdA has in frontline service at this point, D.500s and such delights. (The French have better prototypes flying around, but getting from that to squadron service is far from easy).

You do raise a point we are over-due some naval pron, alas the next chapter takes us even further inland.

When I read "Spanish Venom" I had the uncanny feeling that it was some kind of "Spanish Flu" take two but worse. :D
If you are a Republican pilot the Spanish Flu would be preferable - they would have a higher chance of surviving a dose of the Spanish Flu than a close encounter with a Spanish Venom. :D

Kind of hard to imagine how you could get worse than Spanish flu. You'd have to have ebola go global or have all the sewers cease working to get a massive cholera pandemic.
The Spanish Flu bug itself was fairly average as these things go, it was the circumstances and weakness of the victims that made it such a disaster.

Whoa, really nice air porn. Seems great development for both FAA and Monarchist. So the FAA currently has Gladiator/Swordfish/Skua lineup?

I didn't read much of co-op AAR but I remember Gloster Griffon :)

EDIT:

If I remember correctly, Skua isn't OTL design, but was modified to serve as only a dive bomber, not OTL fighter/bomber combination?
I am glad you liked it and there are a few of us who remember the Griffon. :)

At this point the frontline FAA squadrons are Sea Gladiator / Swordfish, there's a few older types on the low priority CAGs but they are being upgraded. You are correct about the Skua, in Butterfly it is currently undergoing a redesign to make it a pure dive bomber, should be done end of 1937 and then it goes into production. Britain should have researched Improved Carrier tech by then, I do try to keep some connection to the game. ;)

I wonder if japan will view the strengthening of British colinues and dominions in asia as a challange or whether they'll be scared off and go after china and russia first?
Or maybe they'll call the bluff in a different way and go after french Indochina to see what the west will do?
Japan will always go after China, that's just the nature of Shōwa period Japan. What else they need to do (or think they need to do) in order to support that effort, that's a different question.

I'd imagine Japan would no doubt be more cautious about British holdings in the Asia, And in opportunistic manner as per usual, if France was in a loosing fight, would demand Indochina if it was in War with China.
Though perhaps the fact that British colonies are better protected, it would also make Japan have more strategic plans that rely on things more than just morale and self sacrifice for Emperor. Or maybe even attempt to circumvent US blockade by trying to buy its oil from Brits if Brits were willing.
Opportunistic captures it, though it is always important to allow for the difference between the IJA (which didn't do much in the way of strategic planning and had the whole 'murderous junior officer' problem) and the IJN (which did have a strategic plan. Admittedly the plan was just 'Repeat the Battle of Tsushima and hope the enemy surrenders', so it wasn't a great plan. But it existed).

In a scenario where they don't need US assistance (i.e. no war in Europe) the British and Dutch would probably happily sell oil to Japan. Neither has massive ambitions in China, there are a few commercial interests but nothing like the organised China Lobby the US had. What the Japanese would have done, it's a bit murkier and probably tied up with how their war with China is going.

Wow... I believe that is a new pinnacle of research involved, I'm impressed!
I actually forgot that there even were parts of plot like the world cup... I still have trouble adjousting to your majestic pace.

Keep it up! :)
The World Cup plot was an unusual diversion even by my standards and it was (*quickly checks*) four years ago. Four! That's before both daughters. When I actually had a decent(ish) amount of time to write....

Well if we were to conjecture for a moment (I can imagine pip and other ww2 buffs putting their heads into their hands and mumbling 'he's at it again')...

France is being a bit weird TTL. Standing up to Germany took guts and its rebuilding an alliance in Europe without Britain. A clever potlcian or party and a few newspapers could probably use this to instil some nationalist pride and get rid of some defeatist feelings left over from the war. However, they were taxed to their limits in standing up to Germany and Germany doesn't know that. They're just seeing a New France, invigorated, strengthening, getting alliances in Europe surrounding them and further setbacks with the defeat of Italy and the embarsment of the Ruhr. So I'd imagine Germany would be very interested in the Japanese making trouble for them in the east, and tie up some resources. Make them suffer an embarismg defeat to make them lose heart. Or at least split everyone's attention between east and west (their one advantage now over Russia, the allies and France is that they only have to focus on the west for now).

Saying all that, the Japanese 'alliance' with Germany was really one of convenience. They'd have to both agree to fight the same enemy to get it to work. And we don't know what Japan is going to do. But I doubt they would be the ones to declare war first, except in China. Thoughts?
The issue the French keep coming back to is; there are a lot less Frenchmen than Germans. Roughly 42million French vs 68 million Germans. GDP per capita was broadly similar, so the German economy was always going to be 60% bigger. Yes there is the French Empire, lots of warm bodies to put in uniform, but not a lot of actual money or industry. Hence why the UK was such a great ally for France, the BEF was never going to be big but the British did bring something the French really valued. Not the Royal Navy but the Cavalry of St George. The British economy alone roughly matched Germany and that's before allowing for the rest of the Empire.

That's now gone so while the French are certainly more confident than OTL, the importance of her Eastern European allies just jumped massively. The sensitive point for France isn't the Far East, it's important but it's not critical, it's Eastern Europe.

Japan is an interesting country to be fair, as TTL "Strike South Doctrine" has lost most of its initial appeal to IJN due to fact that British, the main foe of the region, has increased its force, and is no longer completely (relatively) unguarded resource region.
However "Strike North Doctrine" still suffers from lack of roads and supply lines in Manchuria to completely be able to challenge USSR. And the simple fact that Japan lacks the oil to produce and develop armored counters to Soviet Armor.
Strike North also lacks any real purpose, apart from bashing communists (which admittedly was very important to large chunks of the IJA). The vast wealth of Siberia and the Soviet Far East is mostly undiscovered, and even if suspected it's not extractable with 30s/40s kit.

Strike South has just become a lot harder to do, but there is still an actual prize if it succeeds. Such a plan also plays to Japan's perceived strengths as well, after TTL's Kanchazu Island incident (Chapter CXVI In the Land of the Black Dragon for those keeping score at home) they probably deep down know their tanks will get slaughtered by the Soviets, but the IJN has already defeated a Western/European Great Power. A lot of things point South. Except common sense, which points towards peace, but that's not a popular direction.

On with War on China, it all depends whenever or not Japanese factions in IJA act as foolish as they did on OTL. With international changes showing that Brits are not a paper tiger at all due to Abyssinian Crisis, Japan might be less willing to commit due to sheer size of China. However if there were to be major Chinese civil unrest, Japan would no doubt act. Alternatively, Japan would prop and influence Warlords to its sphere. to use them as a way to circle around China.

As with German Alliance, Germans have history with China already. and in TTL I doubt Germans want to loose their invests in China the similar way they did with OTL. Simply due to fact that Germans are being challenged by seemingly strong France trying to pocket them in. so why risk it with betraying Chinese for Japan. This way China would also be much more likely to not supply workers to French in case total mobilization in style WW1.
Japan will go for China, even if the leadership decided not to the junior officers of the IJA would force the issue and assassinate anyone who disagrees. Or the Chinese force the issue and Tokyo feels it cannot back down. That powder keg is going off, the only question is how. Excellent point bringing up the German-Chinese relationship, any deal with Japan would have to bring very tangible benefits to be worth it. Germany is not strong enough for grand gestures, not at the moment anyway.

On France itself. We just don't know quite enough how it would go around TTL, it has challenged Germany, and it is holding its own. However it still suffers from its war exhaustion of WW1 despite that. However, this France will not most likely loose as fast on land, simply because Germans have to worry of all French allies on the borders. However if Blitzkrieg through Belgium happens, or some similar massive wartime crisis (millions dying again perhaps. or that Germans defeat all its allies first?), it might mean that rather than loose to Germany on field, is that France might attempt to cut the war short to reduce the loss of life.

Similarly though, if France does not go full Commie, Japan might be the one that gets enticed to French Alliance with either Resources, Trade in case US embargo, mutual distrust of Anglo, colonial concessions, guarantee of free hand/ in China, or if China and Germany simply get too friendly with each other.

Though these also can be influencers for a renewal of Anglo-Japanese treaty. (save the distrust of Anglo or specifically because of it)
French thinking (at present) is that if it gets to a stage where Germany is confident enough to try to invade through Belgium (and risking bringing Britain into the war) then things have already gone horribly badly wrong. I suspect they'd be reaching out peace feelers before the Panzers hit the French border - the entire plan was always Long War but if the enemy has more resources than you, then that will never work, so get peace while you can.

A Franco-Japanese alliance hits the issue of what benefit either side gets out of it. It doesn't help Paris against Germany (which is the over-arching concern) and French Indochina doesn't have the resources that Japan wants (rubber, tin, oil, etc). The French aren't fussed about China and would be reluctant to annoy the US too much as their 'Long War' plan depended on buying quite a lot of US aircraft and weapons.

The problem with that is the fact that the alliance broke down on American insistence during the Washington Treaty. If Japan chooses to reinvigorate that treaty, then suddenly you'd have a pissed off USA to deal with. I don't think that Britain would want that at all, honestly, because of the ever tightening relationship with their former colony.
If it is a straight choice between the USA and Japan, then it's not really a choice. But if it's a choice between annoying an isolationist USA and getting a deal that secures British SE Asia without needing to spend an absolute fortune, well that's different.

If the Japanese could convince the British they had no ambitions in South East Asia and were going to stop being quite so commercially aggressive, then maybe I could see it. Mostly a trade type treaty, British resources flowing to Japan and some Japanese trade barriers being dropped in exchange, but some key words about respecting each others territory and spheres of influence (i.e the Japanese stop colonising the South China Sea and the British don't interfere much in China). I don't think the Japanese could be that convincing, so it wouldn't happen. But a deal like that could, I stress could, be worth the price of annoying an isolationist USA that already has sky high trade barriers and an under-funded navy.

True, true. GB is strong and getting stronger but this isn't 1830. They want at least one big ally and some local ones to help out. France isn't quite gone but is clearly doing their own thing in Europe and basically can only be trusted not to declare war on GB and probably help contain fascism in general. Outside of them, they ain't buddying up to Russia or Germany without a spectacular disaster that renders most of this AAR a shaggy dog story. So that leaves America and Japan.

Both have issues. America is still really jealous-I mean suspicious of the Empire, and though they actually do seem to want to be friends and allies, it would be completely on their terms which frankly is far too close to otl for pippy to go with.
Japan meanwhile has arguably a longer history of friendship with GB that both sides cocked up after ww1. However, racism is going to be a stumbling block on both sides and put simply, they both want to control east asia and there can be only one.

China has a history of getting the stuffing kicked out of it by GB and GB-led alliances so even though the british do have a lot of concerns and money tied up there, they'd have to put an awful lot of effort in to get a worthwhile ally out of all that.

So all the big boys in the world either hate the british or want their stuff or both. I suppose we could go for a typical GB AAR stsnce and build a northern european alliance but that usually only nets Belgium, the netherlands, norway and portugal as a wildcard. Whilst that does give you an even bigger navy to play with. It also ties you down in an awful land position in europe that realistcally the british are probably never going to honour again.

All in all, there are some choices out there but all of them have at least some problems to work around/accept. Presumably this is one of the reasons why the british are investing so much into getting an eventual ally out of spain. At least then GB and portugal would have a third member to help them out.
Interesting words, but coming from a mistaken initial premise - that the British are looking for an ally. British policy isn't quite Splendid Isolation but in terms of continental commitments it's pretty close. Broadly speaking London believes the French and their Eastern European allies have Germany handled (and that Hitler is looking a bit paper tiger) while if push comes to shove they can handle Japan and still maintain a decent fleet presence elsewhere. With the Med secure and Italy staring intently elsewhere, who else could they end up fighting?

This is not a great plan, but where would the fun be if there weren't mistakes being made?

True, however as @TheButterflyComposer said. Great Britain is quite lacking in allies. And USA Is still in its Isolation phase historically.
And honestly, my opinion is quite similar to Composer's as a whole.
Careful, I collect such quotes.

Yeah I wouldn't rattle on about this but GB needs friends and can't just mooch off an empire it's trying to pull back together. Honestly, glorious isolation isnt a good idea right now. So who is it going to be? Or are they going to be like france and make a load of mini alliances instead?
As above, Composer has failed at the first hurdle and neglected to identify what it is Britain needs an ally for. London believes that Italy is humbled, Germany is contained and the RN can deter the Japanese, so is not seeing a great need for allies. Obviously a defensive alliance with the US to properly contain the Japanese (and to allow a cheaper presence East of Suez) would be welcome, but there's absolutely no chance of an isolationist US signing such a deal. That aside, what is this alliance supposed to achieve? (Bearing in mind that 'Helping France beat Germany at less cost' is going to go down like a cup of cold sick given Paris' failure to turn up for the Abyssinian War)

Finally, after two years I've finally managed to get through the entirety of this AAR. I'd avoided commenting on this due to fear of spoilers. But now that I've finally caught up I can say that this is easily not only my favourite AAR. But on of my favourite reads, ever, of anything.\

Excellent work El Pip, I can't say I'll always be able to pitch in to the conversation. (Given my knowledge of the period is broad but also very shallow) But I'll always at least my one of the silent readers. And given my general distrust of notification systems anyway, I'll likely be checking in regularly anyway. And so avoid that particular pitfall for those who go a while without commenting.
Such praise!
H0LmDWJ.gif


Congratulations on catching up and welcome aboard to the comments. Feel free to pitch in regardless, a broader over-view is always welcome as it may reveal connections that excessive depth would obscure.

Tsk, almost forgot to mention: I'm rooting for the French/US influenced moderates on the republican side, the British backed Carlists on the other side. But most of all I'm rooting for a victory for the Basques. Not a large victory, but something. Poor fellows have been there since before Rome rose from it's seven hills. They deserve some kind of break by now.

(And if the Basques flip to the Carlists and together they outmaneuver those evil facists politically and defeat those godless communists in the field than isn't that just convienent)
The Basque pretty much have to go Republican, they are the only side who might give them the autonomy they crave (OK there is @AtlanticFriend s 'Become an independent state under French protection' option, but that's a desperation move). The problem is that the Republicans were always short weapons not so much manpower, not till the end when it didn't matter. So when a shipment turns up they can pick who gets the guns, and that's going to be their own faction not the Basque who are always a bit semi-detached.

Maybe if the Basque could commit a bit more to Spain, "we want this much autonomy and if we get it we will be good Basque-Spaniards" they might get a bit more support. Hell if they could make people believe they meant it, then the moderate Monarchists would probably take that (under some British prodding). But I don't think they can as the leadership never thought like that - Regional autonomy was a step to independence, not an aim in itself (I think, maybe Kurtie or similar Spanish expert can correct this).
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I never claimed it was the most realistic outcome, but damn if I don't want it to happen. But then I also want "Laughing Joe Stalin" and his opposite "Uncle Hitler" to be carried away by alien space bats. So I'm more than used to the "ideal" outcome not being the "probable" outcome. And, alas, I suspect the Basques have a glorious but very short, future ahead of them. These things happen.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Opportunistic captures it, though it is always important to allow for the difference between the IJA (which didn't do much in the way of strategic planning and had the whole 'murderous junior officer' problem) and the IJN (which did have a strategic plan. Admittedly the plan was just 'Repeat the Battle of Tsushima and hope the enemy surrenders', so it wasn't a great plan. But it existed).

In a scenario where they don't need US assistance (i.e. no war in Europe) the British and Dutch would probably happily sell oil to Japan. Neither has massive ambitions in China, there are a few commercial interests but nothing like the organised China Lobby the US had. What the Japanese would have done, it's a bit murkier and probably tied up with how their war with China is going.

If Oil Flows. Then Japanese would have no need to attack Indonesia, atleast, not when they are attacking China, simply due to the fact that one reason Japan assaulted ALL THE SIDES was the American embargo that starved Japanese out of more or less everything it needed for continued warfare, oil and rubber being the main thing running out fast.

A Franco-Japanese alliance hits the issue of what benefit either side gets out of it. It doesn't help Paris against Germany (which is the over-arching concern) and French Indochina doesn't have the resources that Japan wants (rubber, tin, oil, etc). The French aren't fussed about China and would be reluctant to annoy the US too much as their 'Long War' plan depended on buying quite a lot of US aircraft and weapons.

Actually French Indochina has rubber plantations in it by this time already (1925 being the time the first plantations were created by Michelin in modern day Vietnam.), however they only hit their boon when Automobile boon hits France. These plantations, while owned by the Vietnamese communist party nowdays. Still exist to this day. The region does as well contain Bauxite and Copper, as well as Coal.
Similarly, French do have New Caledonia, a region that has, since 1875 been producing nickel. and chromium since 1880. And to lesser extend, Iron as well. And produces in modern time roughly 10% of world's nickel supply.