I sometimes worry about churchill's legacy in this universe, will only one year(albeit impressive one) as Prime Minister I doubt he will have as fame as in our universe, but hopefully he still has some.
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When war comes to the Far East, and it will come I assure you, things will look somewhat different to now and certainly different to OTL. I don't want to say more for fear of spoiling things, but I am enjoying this erudite speculation.![]()
I sometimes worry about churchill's legacy in this universe, will only one year(albeit impressive one) as Prime Minister I doubt he will have as fame as in our universe, but hopefully he still has some.
I sometimes worry about churchill's legacy in this universe, will only one year(albeit impressive one) as Prime Minister I doubt he will have as fame as in our universe, but hopefully he still has some.
Depending on one's view of the man, that is a good thing, as after all, Churchill was and is very ...Complex.. I suppose the word would be, person in history.
And yes, I know I might be stepping on some British toes here, but in my view Churchill is praised far too much, and I'd argue his reign as Prime Minister was less than great anyways.
Broadly true for now, but as you say things may (will) change.Seems at least fairly clean cut between the European and Pacific theatres, but things can change quite quickly in modern war. First we have to find out what happens with china, then it should be a little clearer about how this will all come about.
I admire your optimism.Is that the sound of Pip's quill strachting on parchment as he furiously works on the next update I hear?![]()
Might be. Three more posts until the top of the page!
Fortunately @Dragon50 kindly crushed this hope by taking top of the page. Good work that man.There is always hope.
2 posts to the top.
Cast-iron promise we aren't going to Spain for a while and I'm fairly sure we are going to China. I've even got the chapter title written (and not a lot more than that....)Well as we've said, we're all waiting for china update so we can continue the baseless speculation which he so enjoys.
So this will probably end up finally going back to Spain.
Outstanding work as always Kurtie. And who can say no to an instruction from Winnie himself?
He will be viewed differently certainly, but his career is far from over.I sometimes worry about churchill's legacy in this universe, will only one year(albeit impressive one) as Prime Minister I doubt he will have as fame as in our universe, but hopefully he still has some.
It might take a while I admit. But that is part of the charm.Unless war is described in very very broad strokes (which would be very unlike Pip), I can't imagine how long would that take in real time![]()
Now we see the terrible effects of coffee on the human mind. Look at the catastrophic damage bean juice does to a man's critical faculties. We can only hope regular intravenous tea can effect some sort of recovery. (Depending on one's view of the man, that is a good thing, as after all, Churchill was and is very ...Complex.. I suppose the word would be, person in history.
And yes, I know I might be stepping on some British toes here, but in my view Churchill is praised far too much, and I'd argue his reign as Prime Minister was less than great anyways.
Back in ancient times, when this work started, I wanted someone to re-awaken the Imperial Lion and get stuff done. My overly simplistic analysis was, and to an extent remains, that Britain's main problem inter-war was a lack of confidence and grip, the figures on the economic and industrial capacity and potential of the Empire remain staggering. What was required was someone to shake things up, a bit of Action this Day, and above all get Whitehall and Westminster to remember they ran an Empire and had enormous power if they had but the wit to wield it.Indeed, was about to ask what exactly his legacy was, and whether it was more positive than negative? If nothing else, his strange love affair with America sometimes far over British interests has not led to great places for the UK, or anyone else.
It could be argued that his most positive and important legislative achievement is already done, because he supported the 1911 House of Lords Reform. And his most extremely bad decision with Gallipoli has also already happened. Yes his other important thing, the 'no surrender' in 1940, is going to be missing (presumably? He could still make the speech even if he doesn't have final say) but he already arguably did a better stint for his country by forcing the UK into war with Italy, defending Ethiopia and essentially forcing the UK to rearm, relearn how to be imperialist and stand up to fascism.
He'll still, with that brief tenure as PM, be regarded as one of the most significant politicians and PMs of the 20th century because if that war and his actions within hadn't occurred, who knows (well, ww2 as we know) what would have happened? So he still has a good legacy if he drops dead tomorrow for the most part. But he'll still be a great wartime orator against Japan and Germany/Soviets, he just wont be in charge of the military response (which is probably a good thing). He did his duty in awakening the lion, now he needs to help but not lead it onwards.
On that basis your assessment is probably about right
You missed out the magic words "on that basis". Out of the many incantations a young engineer must learn this is one of the more powerful when used to caveat any statement. For if the basis is incorrect, even slightly, then of course nothing that follows can or should be relied upon and no consequence can flow back to the engineer.I feel we are making some real progress here. Personal reflection and growth, and in the end saying I'm sort of right.
Wouldn't change the outcome with Churchill, but it would take a lot more politiking and a slightly earlier POD somewhere around the start of the whole crisis to get there. Maybe as far back as the border skirmishes back in '34; one of the Anglo-Egyptian border commissioners getting killed by the Italians, something like that. The politiking I would subcontract out to @Le Jones obviously.What happens with churchill and what happens with india is probably the two things the redux would change, yet having him come in years before the big war, have a great success in what he was best at and then become a party elder and orator is probably the best gig possible all things considered. Just make sure he doesn't get the navy again, or a Washington mission. Big ideas and passion are best left to aviation at this time.
The mob are not what they once were.
Oddly enough a book I'm reading right now (the Command of the Ocean: A naval history of Britain 1649-1815) goes into some of the naval myths (but in an earlier period) and it argues a lot of it was willfully supported by the Royal Navy itself.
For example there's an idea that the French had better ships (particialy their widley coppied two decker 74s) in the 1700s and early 1800s and a far more modern system of naval construction and the author argues it's all tosh.
Royal Navy captains tended to grossly inflate the qualities of the French ships they had captured to get more prize money and of course if they argued the French ships were far better than theirs it maginifed their victories and excused their defeats. It was also a good way of getting the government to pony up the money for building new ships.
Historians took a lot of this at face value and it became an article of faith that the French had far better ships that were simply far worse manned when in fact the quality gap was not nearly as big a gulf as the Royal Navy claimed.
That is certainty on topic (but over a century off timeline...) so there!
I do like N A M Rodgers stuff, though I confess to being somewhat relieved the 3rd Volume keeps getting delayed as I have a nagging doubt about how well his style will work when the rate of change starts ratcheting up.Oddly enough a book I'm reading right now (the Command of the Ocean: A naval history of Britain 1649-1815) goes into some of the naval myths (but in an earlier period) and it argues a lot of it was willfully supported by the Royal Navy itself.
For example there's an idea that the French had better ships (particialy their widley coppied two decker 74s) in the 1700s and early 1800s and a far more modern system of naval construction and the author argues it's all tosh.
Royal Navy captains tended to grossly inflate the qualities of the French ships they had captured to get more prize money and of course if they argued the French ships were far better than theirs it maginifed their victories and excused their defeats. It was also a good way of getting the government to pony up the money for building new ships.
Historians took a lot of this at face value and it became an article of faith that the French had far better ships that were simply far worse manned when in fact the quality gap was not nearly as big a gulf as the Royal Navy claimed.
That is certainty on topic (but over a century off timeline...) so there!
A long history of being in 'different' ships certainly, even when you ask a shipwright to copy a design you will not get an exact copy because all the fittings are different. To expand on the previous point, French prizes had the scantling ripped out and replaced with British ones, but when the French (rarely) got their hands on a British one they did not. French standard fittings were lighter, so gave you a faster ship when new (which was what got the shipbuilder their bonus), British ones were chunkier but actually worked properly.There is a long history of the British or English being 'better skilled' but in 'worse' ships. This comment makes me wonder how much of that was actually true.
while the cigarette trade was dominated by one company; British American Tobacco (BAT).
BAT held just over 2/3rds of the market and so was the single largest tax payer in China by quite some margin
The Export Grade cigarettes used the same cheap tobacco but had a special filter, one which included a dose of pure opium inside.
It is worth noting at this point that so fully had some in the Finance Ministry adopted the thinking of their British mentors that their complaints referred to this lowering of tax revenues as "giving money back" to the public, a view of the world any Treasury official would surely agree with.
Was it a serious government looking to unify China, push back Japan and then hurl out the other foreign powers from their privileged positions, or was it merely an elaborate rent-extraction system to enable a privileged few to get exceptionally rich.
The Nationalist Finance Minister Dr H.H. Kung meeting with German chancellor hitler
the Landon administration was burning political capital at an alarming rate over 'moral neutrality' in Spain and had no desire to provoke more domestic problems by getting involved in China.
Golden Bats are of course real, it's Imperial Japan so of course they did something like that. OTL they were kept on sale behind the lines in China until things got tight and Japan prioritised their limited tobacco supply for actual cigarettes for their troops.
British American Tobacco, while started as a joint venture between American Tobacco and Imperial Tobacco, has by this point become basically a British company (American Tobacco sold out pre-WW1) run by the entertainingly eccentric Hugo Cunliffe-Owen who we will probably meet later in entirely different circumstances.
I do like the idea of the British Supreme Court for China
It's also apparent quite how bad a situation China was in at the start of the 20th Century, when you have conceded extra-territoriality and trade concessions to the likes of Denmark, Mexico and Peru you are in a bad way.
The Three Year Plan and the HAPRO agreement are in full effect, but even without war the tension between Germany, China and Japan will remain as Germany tries to keep a foot in both camps (and has massive internal rows about the region, obviously).