The Butterfly Effect: A British AAR

[Le Jones]

Wonderful @El Pip, the concessions were a real oddity.

​

I do like the idea of the British Supreme Court for China so had to get that detail in, it was an odd system and only the British really went for it. The US Court for China was a much more half arsed system as no US judge really want to go out there (looks like bad pay and promotion/seniority problems for those who did) and US law in the region was a mess (the federal system really did not work well with extra-territoriality and Congress never got round to deciding what system should apply),, hence most firms tended to register as 'English law' with effects we see to this day. It's also apparent quite how bad a situation China was in at the start of the 20th Century, when you have conceded extra-territoriality and trade concessions to the likes of Denmark, Mexico and Peru you are in a bad way.

We did this, a lot, as you depict; though we weren't alone. My favourite example of legal imperialism are the Ottoman Nizamiye Courts, which were a truly odd mix of Ottoman and French laws (and French law is migraine-inducing). And although gone, there are a couple of decisions which raised their head not long ago and interpreting it for a modern audience was life changingly painful.

The extraterritorial application of our laws over others hasn't gone away; there is a huuuuuuge body of jurisprudence on whether (and to what extent) our forces take the European Convention of Human Rights with them when they deploy overseas. It's a developing area of law, and one that will effect how British (and a lot of other nations, not necessarily Western European in outlook - Russia, Turkey anyone?) troops conduct their business when we next use them in moderate scale.

As for the difference between UK and US appetite, my 'take' is that the UK bar and judiciary was, in its chaotically flexible way, evolved to allow barristers and judges to slope off around the world for a bit (the Raj is the obvious one). We still do this, albeit on a much diminished level of glamour, now; yours truly is (cough, fanfare of trumpets) on the list of approved advocates in the wonderfully mad Sovereign Base Area Court (it's a hoot) and a senior member of chambers talks endlessly of his two years as Attorney General on the Turks and Caicos Islands. Unlike the FCO, where Governorships are a backwater (well, perceived as a backwater - although Rex Hunt's ghost would disagree!) legal positions in the Overseas Territories are good CV bolstering material - you tend to get more responsibility early.

The UK didn't have a supreme court until the 2000s I think, so putting them up elsewhere is funny in a way. Interesting how they became the runners of law just by being the only ones who showed up to work.

Not by name, but in function and (largely) form we did. The Law Lords acted as the highest appellate court of the UK (so after Crown Court / High Court Appeals to the Court of Appeal, you could, if there was a legal poins, go on to the House of Lords from the Court of Appeal). The Supreme Court has developed a power and stature of all its own, but the work that they do was being done previously, just in a slightly less showy way.

There is also, as Pippy mentions, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which did (and does) hear appeal cases. It's scope has diminished, but they still pump out decisions from time to time.

 

[Killerduck]

Chapter CXL: Merchants of Smooth Tasting Death.​

Whoa baby, an update so soon? Christmas came early (and I probably expected next update around Christmas).

EDIT: Interesting stuff again. I expected this tax policy change was enacted OTL and was hidden reason for Nationalist collapse, I'm a bit disappointed now. It's funny when such unknown details affect the fate of the world.

Also, greeting to a fellow juror Le Jones! Common law sound so improvised to people used to continental/roman system

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Not by name, but in function and (largely) form we did. The Law Lords acted as the highest appellate court of the UK (so after Crown Court / High Court Appeals to the Court of Appeal, you could, if there was a legal poins, go on to the House of Lords from the Court of Appeal). The Supreme Court has developed a power and stature of all its own, but the work that they do was being done previously, just in a slightly less showy way.

There is also, as Pippy mentions, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which did (and does) hear appeal cases. It's scope has diminished, but they still pump out decisions from time to time.

That is true but I don't really count it as a supreme court set up given that, despite the inherent political emphasis on the highest court appointment, they at least have some separation from the legislative. I mean, the Law Lords sat in Lords, which meant for the majority of its history that they were the ones writing the laws that they then got to interpret. And having the final court of appeal be the privy Council meant that, being made up of the british goverment and momarchal reps, the rulings tended to be ever so slightly biased towards whatever the gov said. This including, of course, every legal matter where the goverment is defending itself...

 

[El Pip]

A huge prosperous company paying lots of taxes to the state it operates in?
This is indeed a strange and disturbing universe.

China were convinced BAT were under-paying but couldn't prove it, the tax figures matched up with the sales in the accounts in London and those at least were fairly honest.

That said BAT were getting a discount on the tax by paying it all in a single lump sum up front each year (with some adjustment at year end to match actual sales), because the Nationalist government was always short of cash that payment regularly kept them afloat until everyone else paid their taxes at the normal time. It was a hell of an advantage for BAT though, the smaller firms didn't have the financial clout to do this and so were effectively paying a higher rate, another big reason for BAT's dominance.

A spark of genius or cribbing from the colonial master book on how to gank china and get away with it?

An entirely IJA special. You can tell this by the fact I'm fairly sure they lost money doing it, it was for "strategic reasons" to weaken China, which is just a schoolboy error on so many levels.

The Spanish civil war continues to cock up amercia everywhere they go. Perhaps one of the reasons on carries on is so you can torture them some more before having to resolve the issue or destroy them when the republicans lose.

It is a legal requirement that the SCW drags on for ages, if I can use that to spread more mayhem elsewhere why wouldn't I?

Of course. Of course. The anercian joint venture collapsed and became wholly british.

In fairness I think American Tobacco got bashed with a massive anti-trust case and had to sell their stake in BAT to cover costs. BAT ended up buying American Tobacco in the 90s which is as a fairly good summary of their subsequent histories.

I'm reasonably sure they never bothered to make a choice and kept the officers training the chinese army in china around even when japan was directly fighting them.

There was a year or so when Hitler was mithering, but by Spring 1938 the military mission had been withdrawn, arms sales banned and Manchukuo recognised. They did pick Japan and were probably always going to, but it took a while.

A marvelous update concerning the details of Chinese Taxation. Unfortunately Chang still stays in power.

That first sentence is a combination of words very rarely seen.. anywhere to be honest. But it is appreciated.

From my limited reading I think Chiang was just in a very weak position, he had to tolerate the corruption because Soong and Kung held a lot of power. The Xi'an Incident where he got kidnapped by his two leading generals until he agreed the "United Front" with the Communists points at a man in a precarious position, not quite a figure head but close.

Does this update suggest that we shall have Eden invading Cuba in 1956 for the sake of protecting the Cuban cigars?

Someone has to look after the Caribbean.

Pip, you not only met but exceeded my expections here. Half an update on Chinese cigarette taxation with the remainder made up of the discovery of the obscure concessions granted to minor states and a fine picture of grumpy Hitler.

I am delighted to exceed expectations.

I may have to vote for you in the awards at this rate!

Wisest comment so far, everyone should learn from this and heed it's advice.

Wonderful @El Pip, the concessions were a real oddity.

They were and I think we will have to return to them again at some point in the future, plenty of interesting bits that have been buried away.

As for the difference between UK and US appetite, my 'take' is that the UK bar and judiciary was, in its chaotically flexible way, evolved to allow barristers and judges to slope off around the world for a bit (the Raj is the obvious one). We still do this, albeit on a much diminished level of glamour, now; yours truly is (cough, fanfare of trumpets) on the list of approved advocates in the wonderfully mad Sovereign Base Area Court (it's a hoot) and a senior member of chambers talks endlessly of his two years as Attorney General on the Turks and Caicos Islands. Unlike the FCO, where Governorships are a backwater (well, perceived as a backwater - although Rex Hunt's ghost would disagree!) legal positions in the Overseas Territories are good CV bolstering material - you tend to get more responsibility early.

Congratulations indeed on making the approved list for such a prestigious posting. I can well imagine the mix of legal systems and people does indeed make it an interesting jurisdiction.

While I obviously agree with all of that, I also think the UK just took it all a bit more seriously while the US approach was a bit of a clown show. The US court for China sat under the 9th Circuit, so was a relatively junior court as things go, and was never visited by the circuit (you had to travel to San Fransisco for an appeal). It was also a bit of a random result generator due to the lack of a coherent set of laws for the court to apply; the US Constitution was deemed to not apply (no due process for you!) and originally only US Federal law applied and that has some large gaps (murder is apparently not a federal crime, nor are many types of fraud). To fix that the US court decided to start incorporating some (but not all) common law, bits of Chinese Law and random local custom and tradition, which was bafflingly stupid as;
1. They did not have the authority to randomly apply said laws under the US legal system';
2. By treaty they strictly limited as to what laws China would let them apply;
3. They did it inconsistently so no-one ever quite knew what the law was; and
4. Using local law defeats almost the entire sodding point of an extra-territorial court!

Whoa baby, an update so soon? Christmas came early (and I probably expected next update around Christmas).

EDIT: Interesting stuff again. I expected this tax policy change was enacted OTL and was hidden reason for Nationalist collapse, I'm a bit disappointed now. It's funny when such unknown details affect the fate of the world.

Also, greeting to a fellow juror Le Jones! Common law sound so improvised to people used to continental/roman system

I am moderately confident of beating Christmas for the next update. I think the next update may be on a more familiar subject so take less research. This is traditional fate tempting so it's highly likely to be wrong.

It's obviously hard to separate out the effects, cigarette tax revenue did fall of a cliff in 37/38 but so did every other tax due to the whole 'Being at war with Japan' thing. Cigarette revenue did fall a great deal further, so either all the smokers were concentrated in the North East, everyone started smoking less or the tax caused a revenue collapse. I think option 3, but it would take more research than it is worth to confirm.

 

[Wraith11B]

When you're in that little thing called a war, paying the government their due share probably tends to go out the window, anyways. Just buy the stuff and sod on, right?

 

[Jape]

All very interesting Pip - Golden Bat is... quite something. I've always been intrigued by governments using consumer goods for nefarious purposes.

I concur, I'd like more on the concessions at some point, such an odd colonial set-up that are really showing their age by the 1930s yet also provide room for international skulduggery.

 

[El Pip]

When you're in that little thing called a war, paying the government their due share probably tends to go out the window, anyways. Just buy the stuff and sod on, right?

Here we come to one of the funny details, neither China nor Japan wanted it recognised as a war and for the same reason - fear of the US neutrality acts kicking in. China obviously depend on loans and arms sales from the US, while Japan was at this point also importing heavily from the US, not just oil but machine tools and various other non-military items.

To aid China (and weaken japan), FDR jumped through many hoops to avoid recognising what was obviously a war, as a war. Sadly this just allowed Japan to carry on re-arming with US imports, so with hindsight maybe not the best idea he ever had.

All very interesting Pip - Golden Bat is... quite something. I've always been intrigued by governments using consumer goods for nefarious purposes.

I did check for multiple sources on that because it seemed a bit mad even for the IJA, but it appears to have actually happened.

I concur, I'd like more on the concessions at some point, such an odd colonial set-up that are really showing their age by the 1930s yet also provide room for international skulduggery.

As a concept perhaps showing their age, but Shanghai and Hong Kong were really starting to hit their stride at this point. But then the inter-war was the golden age of weird international settlements; Free City of Danzig, Tangiers International Zone, Saar Basin Territory, the relentless mess that was the Malay States and that incident in the darkest Pacific where the USN got cheeky and had to be shot at by the Royal Navy, leading to the gratuitously pointless Canton and Enderbury Condominium.

Such mysteries aside we will indeed be returning to the Concessions, as you say they are a rich source of skulduggery.

 

[Cromwell]

I hope that odd pacific confrontation won't be butterflied away ITTL?

 

[Wraith11B]

... and that incident in the darkest Pacific where the USN got cheeky and had to be shot at by the Royal Navy, leading to the gratuitously pointless Canton and Enderbury Condominium.

Such mysteries aside we will indeed be returning to the Concessions, as you say they are a rich source of skulduggery.

Nope nope nope nope. If I don't see this in an update I will hoist you from the mainmast, sir.

 

[Davout]

Brief but delightfully obscure. Horace would be pleased.

 

[Cromwell]

Nope nope nope nope. If I don't see this in an update I will hoist you from the mainmast, sir.

Keelhauling would be my preference!

 

[El Pip]

Brief but delightfully obscure. Horace would be pleased.

This is what has happened to Butterfly - 2,500 words is now 'brief'. I'm not saying you are even wrong, just it's a strange situation I find myself in. But I am always please that one of the old hands of this project is still following and enjoying.

I hope that odd pacific confrontation won't be butterflied away ITTL?

Nope nope nope nope. If I don't see this in an update I will hoist you from the mainmast, sir.

I was primed to say there's not enough in the incident to justify an update... But looking into it I see that I was wrong and, as the timeframe works out perfectly, it shall now appear in the next chapter.

To my surprise I'm actually looking forward to getting the time to write it, feeling a buzz about it I've not felt in a while.

Keelhauling would be my preference!

Harsh but fair justice.

 

[Cromwell]

Nothing like a writing buzz to get the creative juices flowing!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Buzz

 

[RobbieAB]

I was primed to say there's not enough in the incident to justify an update... But looking into it I see that I was wrong and, as the timeframe works out perfectly, it shall now appear in the next chapter.

Given what you have managed to stretch into justifying an update, I am surprised you ever thought there couldn't be enough in the incident!

 

[Sir Charles Dewitt]

It would be a dark day indeed that Lord Pip could not find a way to make a multi-thousand word update out of something so minor that most textbooks wouldn't even mention it in passing.

 

[Wraith11B]

It would be a dark day indeed that Lord Pip could not find a way to make a multi-thousand word update out of something so minor that most textbooks wouldn't even mention it in passing.

Pip makes even the driest chardonnay of obscure footnotes to footnotes into thought provoking and enlightening pieces.

 

[Casko]

I must say, the fact the sheer detail about smokes in China, is the reason why I love this AAR. The simple fact how detailed and strangely interesting it all was, makes this truly one of a kind AAR.

 

[El Pip]

Nothing like a writing buzz to get the creative juices flowing!

Buzz

Well indeed.

Given what you have managed to stretch into justifying an update, I am surprised you ever thought there couldn't be enough in the incident!

The incident itself is small. The reasons it happened, the grand strategy behind it and the way it will unfold differently in Butterfly - that is worthy of an update. Or so I currently believe.

It would be a dark day indeed that Lord Pip could not find a way to make a multi-thousand word update out of something so minor that most textbooks wouldn't even mention it in passing.

There is an alternate universe in which I embraced this skill and followed Clio and not Hephaestus. I doubt it would have ended well for me, it appears that success in Academia demands rapid publication of derivative papers while engaging in brutal back-stabbing office politics and I am bad at both of those things. An engineer who dabbles in history was probably the correct choice.

Pip makes even the driest chardonnay of obscure footnotes to footnotes into thought provoking and enlightening pieces.

That is a wonderful compliment. Thank you for that.

I must say, the fact the sheer detail about smokes in China, is the reason why I love this AAR. The simple fact how detailed and strangely interesting it all was, makes this truly one of a kind AAR.

This is also wonderful, detailed and strangely interesting is absolutely what I aim for with most of these so I am pleased to have achieved that and that it was appreciated.

 

[Cromwell]

Maybe I am looking through rose tinted spectacles but there was something about HOI2 that lent itself better to those sorts of obscure details and meandering diversions in the AARs it spawned. You just don't seem to get them in HOI4 ones so much.