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No this was all in 1937. This is a Butterflied version of the Islamic Rebellion of 1937, but there were a lot of revolts/rebellions that escalated and resulted in Soviet troops crossing the border, so I should have been clearer
I saw, Sheng Shicai wiki page was more detailed.
Pretty much this. I think Shicai and his clique were pure opportunists, they realised they had given away too much to the Soviets in the late 1930s so saw the German invasion as a chance to break free. He probably wanted a semi-independent state, but nobody was going to allow that, so he chose China on the basis the Kuomintang would probably let him live. Which proved correct in OTL.
That does seem true from his wiki article.

It's also pretty hilarious, changing his mind however Eastern front went (expulsion of Soviets and inviting Kuomintang around Battle of Stalingrad, inviting Soviets back after Kursks and claiming to USSR this new Kuomintang personel are Japanese spies), taking 135 trucks of loot when abandoning his his guvernerial palace, purging Islamic elements, then purging CCP, then Kuomintang, then Soviets, etc.

Probably not that funny if you were there at the time.
 
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I'm not only impressed with the longevity of this work, El P, but the amount of information and research you've put into it. I can't guarantee I'll have time to read all 3,254 pages of this opus before I croak, but I'm giving it a try. Of course, a Cole's Notes version or bullet points covering what has happened to date would go a long way... ;)
 
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Another amazing installment Pip, thank you!

I confess that I am still a bit confused about why there isn't a 2nd Sino Japanese War in TTL. I get that there was no Marco Polo Bridge Incident (or that if there was it didn't flare up and the Japanese just seized the railway depot at Wanping) and I'm assuming that this is because, without the Xi'an Incident, Chiang Kaishek is allowed to continue focusing on fighting Communists instead of fighting Japan and can continue ignoring minor Japanese provocations. But I don't totally understand why the Xi'an Incident didn't happen in TTL. Is it because Chiang's position is stronger than OTL due to the success of the Leith-Ross Mission? Is it because Germany is still assisting China, there being no pact with Japan in TTL? Something I'm missing?

Overall, I just want to say again that the amount of effort you put into all of this is amazing. Truly a great story and I am always delighted to see another update.
 
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It's also pretty hilarious, changing his mind however Eastern front went (expulsion of Soviets and inviting Kuomintang around Battle of Stalingrad, inviting Soviets back after Kursks and claiming to USSR this new Kuomintang personel are Japanese spies), taking 135 trucks of loot when abandoning his his guvernerial palace, purging Islamic elements, then purging CCP, then Kuomintang, then Soviets, etc.

Probably not that funny if you were there at the time.
If there was any justice he would have ended up purged himself, alas he got a semi-comfortable retirement in Taiwan.

I'm not only impressed with the longevity of this work, El P, but the amount of information and research you've put into it. I can't guarantee I'll have time to read all 3,254 pages of this opus before I croak, but I'm giving it a try. Of course, a Cole's Notes version or bullet points covering what has happened to date would go a long way... ;)
I am just pleased that you are making the attempt. As it happens there is a summary post produced by @TheButterflyComposer which should help in getting you somewhat up to date, you can consider him to be my Boswell in this regard; The TBC Unofficial Summary Post

Another amazing installment Pip, thank you!
Very kind.
I confess that I am still a bit confused about why there isn't a 2nd Sino Japanese War in TTL. I get that there was no Marco Polo Bridge Incident (or that if there was it didn't flare up and the Japanese just seized the railway depot at Wanping) and I'm assuming that this is because, without the Xi'an Incident, Chiang Kaishek is allowed to continue focusing on fighting Communists instead of fighting Japan and can continue ignoring minor Japanese provocations. But I don't totally understand why the Xi'an Incident didn't happen in TTL. Is it because Chiang's position is stronger than OTL due to the success of the Leith-Ross Mission? Is it because Germany is still assisting China, there being no pact with Japan in TTL? Something I'm missing?
It is all of that and some changes on the Japanese side. To start with China Chiang is in a stronger position, the successful Leith-Ross mission and follow on investment is helping the economy and he's kept Germany and Italy on side. The Italian connection was surprisingly important, as mentioned a lot of China's domestically constructed/assembled air force was planned to rely on Italian support, plus a number of military training missions. The Xi'an plotters are still not convinced about Chiang but there is a desire not to rock the boat, China is getting stronger and there is no guarantee that all this investment will continue if the Incident goes badly.

The other big change is on the Japanese side as there are far fewer provocations happening. 2-26 becoming the June Incident has mixed up Japanese politics, compare to OTL the uprising is more shambolic which means it's opponents feel safer in cracking down, so a few more fire breathers actually suffered consequences and officers who were 'rotated' to the provinces, where they caused trouble, instead get sent to actual backwaters far from the border, that sort of thing. Then the bad defeat to the Soviets is another blow to the IJA and there is another reshuffle. All of this gives Tokyo a bit more chance to actually implement their policy, which was to stop antagonising China and try diplomacy. Which seems incredible but was OTL, the IJA leadership knew China would be a meatgrinder and most of them wanted to fight the soviets, the IJN didn't care but didn't want money 'wasted' on the Army and much of the civilians knew they couldn't really afford a massive war, at least not until Manchuria had been developed which was going to take until the mid 1940s at best.

One practical example, the last chapter mentioned the Grand Han Righteous Army being part of the Sinkiang Legion. OTL that unit existed, but got basically wiped out in the Suiyuan Campaign in Oct/Dec 1936, a failed attempt by a Japanese puppet to invade a Chinese province. I think that was was an under-rated motivator for the Xi'an Incident, despite Japanese denials everyone knew the IJA had been heavily involved and it was proof to the conspirators that China needed to unite as Japan was going to keep trying to slice bits off. In Butterfly that campaign never happens, all the planning was in the Summer of 1936 and so the June Incident completely disrupts it. By the time the dust has settled Tokyo has pushed out it's New China Policy and asserted enough control to stop the provocations, at least for now. This also feeds into their support for Sinkiang, it has the potential to be a good outlet for the IJA's aggression, every IJA faction wanted to fight the Soviets/Communism, they just disagreed on the priority and how to handle China. Give them an actual proxy war against Communism and they should be less keen on poking China, is at least the hope.

So fewer provocations due to changes in Japan, Chiang being a bit more secure and a bit more money and growth sloshing around China giving people hope things are turning a corner. I wouldn't say Chiang is secure, but his biggest risk is not over foreign policy but the various regional governors/warlords not liking the more assertive Finance Ministry trying to collect the taxes that are due rather than what the warlords deign to pay.
Overall, I just want to say again that the amount of effort you put into all of this is amazing. Truly a great story and I am always delighted to see another update.
That is very kind thank you. I also appreciate this sort of question, it is wonderful to have readers who do think about these things so please feel free to ask away if you have any more queries.
 
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I am just pleased that you are making the attempt. As it happens there is a summary post produced by @TheButterflyComposer which should help in getting you somewhat up to date, you can consider him to be my Boswell in this regard; The TBC Unofficial Summary Post

Not updated since 2021, as it turns out...was there any actual events that need adding? Or did I do another post?

To start with China Chiang

China Chiang!
 
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That is very kind thank you. I also appreciate this sort of question, it is wonderful to have readers who do think about these things so please feel free to ask away if you have any more queries.
I have one - in my re-re-read I got to industrial appendix. It said British companies were making steelworks in China (planned with brits OTL but war prevented it) and Brasil (Vargas steelworks, built by USA during the war).

What were drivers for Vargas works being pushed forward and not built by US? I assume US depression for latter, but former? Or is this just the start of negotiations and would be built on otl date?
 
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Just what the doctor ordered. Kudos to @TheButterflyComposer for putting that summary together. Just read it, including the updated material. Now I feel a bit more knowledgeable.

There is more to come, probably over the weekend. Last three years to add on.
 
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There is more to come, probably over the weekend. Last three years to add on.
*Checks to ensure not violating top-of-page.... Nope! Good to go!*

And I for one want to thank you, sir, for your efforts!
 
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China Chiang!
If only I was able to mention his son, then it could have been China Chiang Ching.
I have one - in my re-re-read I got to industrial appendix. It said British companies were making steelworks in China (planned with brits OTL but war prevented it) and Brasil (Vargas steelworks, built by USA during the war).

What were drivers for Vargas works being pushed forward and not built by US? I assume US depression for latter, but former? Or is this just the start of negotiations and would be built on otl date?
I believe Past Pip's plan was for Vargas coup to fail, this left Brazil most stable and investable so the steelwork plans could got ahead on the hoped for schedule (no Vargas debt default making the country less investable, etc). Whether this gets mentioned in the actual text I'm not sure, I think probably only in passing. Domestic Brazilian politics is somewhat outside the scope of the work.

On the US not being involved that is very historic. US steel firms lobbied heavily against the scheme and US Steel turned down at least two chances to invest in the works. Brazil was a big export market and the US firms thought they would make more from exporting than part owning the works, particularly given the rash of nationalisations in South America at the time making it commercially risky. Of course WW2 changed that and national security concerns were more important, but without that the main US involvement will be trying to stop the scheme happening at all.

OTL the commercial contest, as opposed to the wartime bribe scheme, was a German-British battle to win the job and Krupp fumbled it. They wanted to use the Krupp-Renn process, which has been discussed previously in this very AAR, because they were concerned about Brazil's lack of decent coal and the K-R process doesn't need coking coal, just anything with a reasonable energy/heat content. The British bid went along with the pretence that Brazilian coal would be fine, while expecting to import a lot from the UK. This mattered as Brazil was doing a full massive Grand Project, so wanted coke ovens as the byproducts from that were hoped to feed into a new chemical industry. Therefore Brazil preferred the UK bid which had coke ovens over Krupp who did not. But then the war intervened, the UK lacked the capacity (or interest) and Germany was cut off.
Just what the doctor ordered. Kudos to @TheButterflyComposer for putting that summary together. Just read it, including the updated material. Now I feel a bit more knowledgeable.
Everyone writer have a Boswell to produce such summaries, I highly recommend acquiring one.
DYAEiOu.gif

There is more to come, probably over the weekend. Last three years to add on.
And now you can work on, reassured it is being read and apprecaited.
*Checks to ensure not violating top-of-page.... Nope! Good to go!*

And I for one want to thank you, sir, for your efforts!
It is good to see traditions being kept up.
 
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It is all of that and some changes on the Japanese side. To start with China Chiang is in a stronger position, the successful Leith-Ross mission and follow on investment is helping the economy and he's kept Germany and Italy on side. The Italian connection was surprisingly important, as mentioned a lot of China's domestically constructed/assembled air force was planned to rely on Italian support, plus a number of military training missions. The Xi'an plotters are still not convinced about Chiang but there is a desire not to rock the boat, China is getting stronger and there is no guarantee that all this investment will continue if the Incident goes badly.

The other big change is on the Japanese side as there are far fewer provocations happening. 2-26 becoming the June Incident has mixed up Japanese politics, compare to OTL the uprising is more shambolic which means it's opponents feel safer in cracking down, so a few more fire breathers actually suffered consequences and officers who were 'rotated' to the provinces, where they caused trouble, instead get sent to actual backwaters far from the border, that sort of thing. Then the bad defeat to the Soviets is another blow to the IJA and there is another reshuffle. All of this gives Tokyo a bit more chance to actually implement their policy, which was to stop antagonising China and try diplomacy. Which seems incredible but was OTL, the IJA leadership knew China would be a meatgrinder and most of them wanted to fight the soviets, the IJN didn't care but didn't want money 'wasted' on the Army and much of the civilians knew they couldn't really afford a massive war, at least not until Manchuria had been developed which was going to take until the mid 1940s at best.

One practical example, the last chapter mentioned the Grand Han Righteous Army being part of the Sinkiang Legion. OTL that unit existed, but got basically wiped out in the Suiyuan Campaign in Oct/Dec 1936, a failed attempt by a Japanese puppet to invade a Chinese province. I think that was was an under-rated motivator for the Xi'an Incident, despite Japanese denials everyone knew the IJA had been heavily involved and it was proof to the conspirators that China needed to unite as Japan was going to keep trying to slice bits off. In Butterfly that campaign never happens, all the planning was in the Summer of 1936 and so the June Incident completely disrupts it. By the time the dust has settled Tokyo has pushed out it's New China Policy and asserted enough control to stop the provocations, at least for now. This also feeds into their support for Sinkiang, it has the potential to be a good outlet for the IJA's aggression, every IJA faction wanted to fight the Soviets/Communism, they just disagreed on the priority and how to handle China. Give them an actual proxy war against Communism and they should be less keen on poking China, is at least the hope.

So fewer provocations due to changes in Japan, Chiang being a bit more secure and a bit more money and growth sloshing around China giving people hope things are turning a corner. I wouldn't say Chiang is secure, but his biggest risk is not over foreign policy but the various regional governors/warlords not liking the more assertive Finance Ministry trying to collect the taxes that are due rather than what the warlords deign to pay.

That is all very interesting, thank you. I think I have to go back and reread 'Butter and Gunbatsu' to understand the significance of the changes on the Japanese side. Once again, the amount of thought, research, and effort that goes into this story blows me away, including the behind the scenes explanations like this.
 
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That is all very interesting, thank you. I think I have to go back and reread 'Butter and Gunbatsu' to understand the significance of the changes on the Japanese side. Once again, the amount of thought, research, and effort that goes into this story blows me away, including the behind the scenes explanations like this.
It is good to know all that behind the scenes work was not wasted. :)
View attachment 1234995
Child was conceived, born and just turned 8 months, the race is on.:cool:
Ahh Past Pip and his ambitious approach to predictions. Technically as we are in Autumn 1937 I could do the Straits Crisis next, but that would mean further delaying The impact of the citrus trade and international fruit industry credit financing on the Spanish Civil War. And could you have that on your conscience?

Speaking of terrible burdens on one's soul the next chapter is basically done and it appears it will have to be posted mid-page. These are dark and fallen times we live in.
 
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Such heresy cannot be allowed.

To be somewhat on topic, during re-read I saw Pip confessed about forgetting to include long awaited 1937 naval estimates in an update and he's in problem since plot blazed by them.

Shocking to see that plot has outpaced a topic.

Also, did we ever get armoured cars trial update? There was an update about Dominion preparations for it, but I don't remember that we got to the trials itself?
 
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Such heresy cannot be allowed.

To be somewhat on topic, during re-read I saw Pip confessed about forgetting to include long awaited 1937 naval estimates in an update and he's in problem since plot blazed by them.

Shocking to see that plot has outpaced a topic.

Also, did we ever get armoured cars trial update? There was an update about Dominion preparations for it, but I don't remember that we got to the trials itself?
Indeed not! We must labour to avoid such appalling and disgusting habits!

We have gone backwards in time before in the updates, so there would be precedence for doing it again! Even if it is a dastardly plot to run the AAR in negative time, because slower than real time is too fast!
 
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We are being spoiled here, the Impact of the citrus trade on the Spanish Civil War and possibly backtracking to the 1937 naval estimates? Next year is going to start well!
 
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Everyone writer have a Boswell to produce such summaries, I highly recommend acquiring one.
DYAEiOu.gif

Quite so.

And now you can work on, reassured it is being read and apprecaited

As above.

Such heresy cannot be allowed.

To be somewhat on topic, during re-read I saw Pip confessed about forgetting to include long awaited 1937 naval estimates in an update and he's in problem since plot blazed by them.

Shocking to see that plot has outpaced a topic.

Also, did we ever get armoured cars trial update? There was an update about Dominion preparations for it, but I don't remember that we got to the trials itself?

Didn't really get into armoured cars. Mildly touched upon Italian armoured cars in Imperial Cheese 1, that is to say, when the Italian tree refers to mechanised transport, they mean armoured cars, and where they refer to armoured cars they mean...cars...

And all else follows...
 
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Such heresy cannot be allowed.
We must have some standards. Perhaps not the same standards as everyone else, but they are ours and we hold to them.
To be somewhat on topic, during re-read I saw Pip confessed about forgetting to include long awaited 1937 naval estimates in an update and he's in problem since plot blazed by them.

Shocking to see that plot has outpaced a topic.
The dangers of plot cannot be overstated, I just hope more of the readership realise this before demanding it advance.
Also, did we ever get armoured cars trial update? There was an update about Dominion preparations for it, but I don't remember that we got to the trials itself?
The trials are scheduled for April 1938, which is a very long way in the future, but it is on the schedule.
Indeed not! We must labour to avoid such appalling and disgusting habits!
This is just the attitude I love to see in the readership.
We have gone backwards in time before in the updates, so there would be precedence for doing it again! Even if it is a dastardly plot to run the AAR in negative time, because slower than real time is too fast!
It does get a bit confusing when one is slower than negative real time, so it is something I shall endeavour to avoid.
We are being spoiled here, the Impact of the citrus trade on the Spanish Civil War and possibly backtracking to the 1937 naval estimates? Next year is going to start well!
Next year may also feature the updates I have codenamed "Pig vs Sheep", "Colonial Disgrace" and "The War of Colonial Spain's Inability to Draw Maps Properly." Also a potential El Pip AAR Voting Opportunity about an incredibly minor plot point.
Quite so.
Excellent, no-one wants an unhappy or unappreciated Boswell.
Didn't really get into armoured cars. Mildly touched upon Italian armoured cars in Imperial Cheese 1, that is to say, when the Italian tree refers to mechanised transport, they mean armoured cars, and where they refer to armoured cars they mean...cars...

And all else follows...
Given some of the armoured cars that got produced in OTL, standard commercial vehicles that were more told about the idea of armour than actually armoured, this seems somewhat reasonable. Rest assured all of the vehicles competing in the armoured car trials will be suitably armoured, they just might not be suitable for the job or even cars.

We have approached perilously close to the end of the page, one more post after this should do it. Wonderful work everyone, very much in the category of a Christmas Miracle
 
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