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bombshellboi

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Dec 17, 2003
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Hi guys.

Ive wanted to play a game of EU2 where the roles of Europe/Mid East and America were reversed.
Where the American states were the powerful colonisers and Europe was largely depopulated and uninhabited.

And it doesnt appear like anyone else has had a similar idea; the closest being the Years of Salt and Rice Scenario where Islam colonises a depopulated Europe...

Unfortunately my modding experience and ability largely lies in the area of Event modding and not actual scenario modding; so I would like a bit of help if anyones up for it?
Would anyone even be interested in something like this?

First things first...
What year would be a good start date? 1419 or later?

Secondly...
I want every Native American province to be rule so - what nations should be included?

Thirdly...
Which of these Native Empires should become the mighty colonisers? And which should slip into second rate powers? And which should dissapear?

Fourthly...
History will have to be rewritten to explain how the Native Empires make the leap forward into the "latin" techgroup and how Europe slips down into "exotic"...
How would I go about portraying this?

Fifthly...
A timeline of the scenario will need to be created; in order to create events...
Any ideas here? Historical and fantasy ideas welcome, as long as they arent unbalancing.

Finally...
Anyone good with graphics/ai files up for helping?
 
Nations
Ideas for nations I have so far...
South America
Cultures - Nations
Moche - Quito Tribedom
Chimu - Chimor, Chancay, Sican Tribedom
Quechua - Incaland, Nazca, Huanca
Aymara - Collo Empire, Lupaca Tribedom
Guarani - Kaiowa, Nandeva, M'bya
Guahibo - Guahiban Tribedom
Choco - Wounmeu
Salivan - Piraroa
Wara - Warao
Amazon - Amazonia, Iamapa Kingdom, Tupi Tribedom
Parnaiban Mali - Parnaiba, New Maliland, Maraiba
Maxakali - Maxakal
Araucanian - Mapdungun, Huilliche Kingdom, Telhuelche Tribedom
Central America
Cultures - Nations
Caribe - Galibi Tribes, Carib Tribes
Taino - Tainoa, Lucaya, Quisquya, Boriquen
Chibchan - Cabecara Tribedom
Choco - Wounmeu
Misumalpan - Miskito
Mayan - Mayaland, Lenca Tribedom
Zapotec - Zapotec Kingdom, Mixtec Kingdom
Aztec - Aztec Empire(Triple Alliance), Tlaxcala
Tarascan - Tarascan Empire, Tarahumara
Uto - Mayo Tribedom, Yaqui Tribedom, Tohono Tribedom
Hokan - Hokan Tribedom
North America
None as yet...


History
Was thinking of something along the lines of Interregnum's idea of having the Songhai/Mali Empire colonise parts of SA contact the natives, spread tech, spread disease, cause depopulation etc...
West African History
1050 - The Ghana Empire reaches its Apex, dominating West Africa forcing the Mali, Songhai, Sosso, and Mossi into vassalage and threatening the Almoravid Empire in the north.
1070 - The Almoravids declare Jihad on the Ghana Empire; the Sosso break free and help the Almoravids.
1076 - The Ghana are destroyed. The Sosso, Mali, Songhai and Mossi gain independence. The Almoravids assume control of the majority of the Empire.
1086 - The Almoravids withdraw from West Africa, allowing the Ghana to regain independence.
1140 - The Sosso begin occupying the territory of their former masters the Ghana. The Ghana are forced into vassalage.
1203 - The Mali are conquered by the Sosso.
1235 - The Mali revolt and soundly defeat the Sosso at the Battle of Kirina.
1240 - The Sosso and Ghana peoples are annexed by the growing Mali Empire.
1275 - The Songhai are conquered by the Mali Empire.
1312 - Kankan Musa I comes to rule Mali; and in less than a year conquers the Mossi Kingdom.
1324 - Kankan Musa visits Cairo, making a pilgrimage to Mecca. He purchases books on various topics from the libraries of the middle east including books on seafaring and ship building.
1328 - Mali begin exploring the Atlantic ocean, establishing trading posts up and down West Africa and in the Cape Verde Islands.
1331 - Mali discovers South America. Over the next few years trading posts are established there.
1337 - Mansa Kankan Musa I begins a program to colonise/conquer South America; but unfortunately dies before it can begin.
1340/1 - Mansa Maghan (Kankans son) and after his death Mansa Suleyman (Kankans brother) continue Kankan Musa's policy of colonisation.
1344 - The Black Plague makes its appearance in the Empire, greatly weakening the Empire but not destroying it. Contact with the colonies becomes intermittent.
1360 - The Mali Empire falls into civil war between Mansa Kassa (Suleymans son) and Mari Daita II(Kankans grandson) upon the death of Mansa Suleyman, and contact with the American colonies is finally lost.
1361 - The Mossi used the civil war to break away from the Mali. Mari Daita II becomes Mansa of the Mali.
1410 - The Animist Songhai break away from the rapidly declining Muslim Mali Empire and begin to establish their own Empire in its place.
Middle Eastern History
962 - Ghaznavids revolt in western Afghanistan against the Samanid Persians.
999 - Samanid Empire crumbles before Ghaznavid and Qarakhanid invasions; and it finally dies when the Ziyarids in northern Persia and the Buwayhids in southern Persia revolt.
1028 - The Seljuks move south wards coming into conflict with the Ghaznavid Empire.
1039 - Battle of Dandanaqan occurs where the Seljuks humilate the Ghanavids seizing all of their western Persian territories. The Ghaznavids focus eastwards but continue to wane after their defeat.
1043 - Ziyarid Dynasty is conquered from the north by the burgeoning Seljuk Turkic Empire.
1055 - The Buwayhids are defeated and conquered by the Seljuks. Later that year the Seljuks seize Baghdad and vassalise the Abbasid Caliphate.
1064 - The Seljuks conquer the Caucacus region including Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia.
1068 - The Battle of Manzikert occurs; the Byzantine Empire is humiliated and loses control over Eastern and Central Anatolia to the the Seljuks (except for the Pontus region).
1087 - Seljuk rule is expanded to include everything from Egypt in the west to China in the east.
1092 - The Seljuk Empire collapses into Civil war; breaking up into 3 parts (Anatolia, Syria, and Persia) firstly. Georgia regains independence.
1095 - Syria divided into Damascus and Aleppo. Persia fractured between 4 brothers all claiming to be Sultan of the Seljuks. First Crusade began.
1098 - Crusader states of Jerusalem, Edessa, Antioch, and Tripoli founded. Kingdom of Cicilia created in Little Armenia.
1118 - Ahmed Sanjar reunited the realms of Persia and Mesopotamia as the new Sultan of the Great Seljuk Empire. Rum, Damascus, and Allepo ignored his rule.
1141 - The Seljuks lost control of the eastern provinces at the Battle of Qatwan.
1142 - Damascus and Allepo reunited by Zengi of Mosul.
1144 - Zengi destroys the Crusader state of Edessa triggering the Second Crusade.
1147 - Nuredin son of Zengi becomes ruler of Syria in his fathers place and organises the islamic powers in the levant into an alliance to resist the Second Crusade.
1149 - The Ghaznavid Empire is supplanted by the Ghurids of Afghanistan.
1156 - Ahmed Sanjar dies. The Seljuk Empire falls apart - officially seperating into Rum(Anatolia), Syria, Hamadan(Iraq/Azerbaijan), Mosul, Salgur(Iran), and Khwarazim in Transoxiana.
1169 - After the Second Crusade failed, Nuredin destroyed the Fatamid Sultanate in Egypt and placed his General Shirkuh as Governor. Two months after being appointed to the position he died and is succeeded by Saladin.
1174 - Nuredin of Syria dies; Saladin rebels against his son and establishes the Ayyubid Sultanate in Egypt. Syria is conquered shortly thereafter.
1187 - Saladin defeats the Crusader States prompting the 3rd Crusade.
1191 - Richard the Lionhearted conquers Cyprus on the way to the levant making it an independent Kingdom. Famously Saladin and King Richard warred for control of the Levant.
1193 - King Richard withdrew the Crusader army. The 3rd Crusade had failed. He was later captured by the Holy Roman Emperor. Saladin died shortly thereafter and his Empire was consumed by Civil war.
1194 - Khawarazim destroyed the last of Seljuk power in Persia.
1200 - Al-Adil reunites the Ayyubid Sultante.
1201 - 4th Crusade begins. The Venetian Doge diverts it to conquer the Byzantine Empire.
1204 - Constantinople falls to the forces of the 4th Crusade; various successor states to the Byzantine Empire pop up. Epirus, Nicaea, and Trebizond are orthodox successors. The Principality of Achiea, the Duchy of Athens, the Kingdom of Thessalonika, and the Latin Empire were set up as crusader states.
1206 - The Ghurids conquer northern India and found the Sultanate of Delhi.
1212 - The neighbouring Kara-Khitay Khanate is divided up between Khwarazim and the Mongol Empire.
1217 - The 5th Crusade begins. Initially the crusade goes well with the fall of Diametta in Egypt.
1218 - Mongol emissaries to the Khwarazim were executed by the Shah's subordinates. Holding the Shah responsible the Mongols invaded. The Ayyubid Sultanate once again collapses into civil war upon Al-Adils death.
1219 - The Mongols sensing the opportunity for real gain instead of petty revenge concentrate on dismantaling the Khwarazim state instead of attempting to kill the Shah. Before the year is out the Khwarazim Empire has fallen and the Shah has fled into exile.
1220 - The Mongols begin operations against lower Persia and the Kievian Rus.
1221 - The 5th Crusade is defeated at Cairo. The Crusaders return home to Europe. The power struggle between Al-Kamil and his brother Al-Mu'azzam over leadership of the Ayyubids begins.
1226 - Persia brought entirely under the rule of the Mongols.
1227 - Ghengis Khan dies. Al-Mu'azzam dies and Al-Kamil divides the Ayyubid Sultanate with his other brother Al-Ashraf. For 2 years the Mongols moarn the loss of the Great Khan after electing Ogedei to replace him.
1228 - Emperor Frederick of the Holy Roman Empire launches the 6th Crusade.
1229 - The Mongols resume their campaigns into Europe and the Middle East quickly conquering Azerbaijan and invading the Abbassid Caliphate. Emperor Frederick of the Holy Roman Empire dies causing the 6th crusade to fail.
1231 - The Mongol Il-Khanate sacks Baghdad and destroys the Abbassids. They then begin an invasion of Mosul, Armenia, and Anatolia.
1236 - The Mongols conquer Syria and stir up a slave revolt in Egypt. the Sultan Al-Kamil is executed and the Ayyubid Sultanate is destroyed, replaced by the Mameluke Sultanate.
1239 - The Il-Khanate begins operations against the weak Mameluke Sultanate.
1241 - The Il-Khanate controls all of the middle east save for the Sultanate of Rum and the Byzantine successor Kingdoms. The Great Khan Ogedei dies and Batu Khan of the Golden Horde ensures his election to the position. The traditional 2 year moarning is observed.
1244 - The Il-Khanate invades and subjugates or vassalises most of the states in the Arabian peninsula. Cyprus falls to the Il-Khanate.
1245 - The Il-Khanate attacks the Coptic nation of Nubia. Later that year they force the petty Kingdoms of the Ethiopia and Somalia regions into vassalage.
1246 - The Mongols continue their campaigns in North Africa, first destroying Tunisia. The Empire of Nicaea destroys the Kingdom of Thessalonika and retakes Constantinople, destroying the Latin Empire in the process. The Byzantine Empire is reformed.
1248 - Tlemcen falls to the Mongol Horde. Morocco begins to feel the wrath of the Il-Khanate as the first Mongol raids enter this nation. The new Byzantine realm re-conquers much of Hellas, Bulgaria, and Epirus.
1249 - The Morea is retaken by the Byzantine Empire. The Sultanate of Rum and the Empire form an alliance to face the encroaching Il-Khanate.
1250 - The Battle of Konya takes place where the Allied Turkic-Greek army was defeated by the Il-Khanate. The Sultanate of Rum falls.
1252 - The last of Greek resistance is ended with the Sack of Constantinople by the armies of the Il-Khanate. The populace is slaughtered for resisting.
1253 - The Il-Khanate destroys the last independent nation lying between them and the Golden Horde; the Kingdom of Georgia. Morocco is invaded that year.
1255 - The Great Khan Batu dies. Mongke Khan succeeds him. The 2 years traditional moarning is observed.
1257 - Mongke Khan dies shortly after the moarning for Batu Khan is complete causing another round of elections. Kublai Khan comes to the throne. Another 2 years moarning is observed.
1259 - The Mongol Empire began to crumble the 4 Khanates of the Empire (The Golden Horde, the Il-Khanate, the Chagatai Khanate, and Yuan China) began to concentrate more on their own affairs and conflicts with each other.
The Il-Khanate establishes its capital in Tabriz.
1261 - The first war between the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate occurs. The Il-Khanate bribes the Europa Khanate (Green Horde) to attack the Golden Horde by handing over Il-Khanate territories in southern Europe to the Europa Khanate.
1265 - The first of many rebellions occurs in the Middle East. Egypt rises up in open revolt upon the death of Hugelu Khan ruler of the Il-Khanate.
1266 - The first conflict between the Il-Khanate and the Chagatai Khanate occurs.
1294 - After 30 years of rebellion and inter-Khanate warfare the Mongolian Empire finally collapses upon the death of the last Great Khan Kublai of Yuan China. The division into the 4 parts is now official.
1310 - Morrocco, Algeria, and Tunisia have all successfully broken away from the Il-Khanate. The Arabian and Ethiopian/Somalian states no longer pay tribute to the Khan in Tabriz.
1313 - The Il-Khanate capital is moved to Isfahan due to rebellions occuring in Anatolia, the Caucacus, and Mesopotamia.
1315 - The Il-Khanate governor of Egypt declares independence from the Il-Khanate, establishing the Burji Sultanate.
1316 - Abu Sai'd comes to the throne of the Il-Khanate.
1334 - The first cases of the Black Plague are found in the middle east, having come along the Silk Road from China where the plague had already begun in earnest.
1336 - The black plague spreads into the Russian steppes and Anatolia. Khan Abu Sai'd dies at the beginning of this year of plague; spelling the end of the Il-Khanate. Timur the Lame was born this year.
1337 - The Black Plague begins to spread into Europe and Africa. Civil war consumes the Il-Khanate as many splinter states fight over the throne.
1340 - The black plague reaches Morocco.
1341 - The black plague dissapears in Persia and the middle east after destroying nearly 2/3s of the population in the region. The civil war in the Il-Khanate continues.
1353 - The last of the claimants of the Il-Khanate throne is assasinated. The splinter states remain splintered.
1360 - Timur the Lame enters the service of the Chagatai Khanate and begins the conquest of the former territories of the Il-Khanate in Transoxiana, Persia , and Afghanistan.
1370 - Timur forms the Timurid Empire, breaking away firmly from the Chagatai Khanate. Crowning himself Emperor from his capital in Samarkand.
1392 - Timur destroys the last of the independent Persian states and launches an invasion of Mesopotamia.
1393 - The Timurids destroy Baghdad and conquer Mespotamia. He then prepares a campaign against Burji Egypt and against the Golden Horde for control of the Caucacus region.
1395 - The Golden Horde transfers sovereignty of the Caucacus to Timur.
1396 - The Burji defeat Timur at Damascus and force him to make peace.
1401 - Timur invades Anatolia fighting and defeating the last of the independent sedentary Turkish tribes forcing them to pay tribute.
1405 - Timur dies and upon his death the Turks in Anatolia, the Kingdoms in the Caucacus, and the rulers of Mesopotamia regain their independence.


Timeline
No ideas as yet...
Pretty much wide open.
West African Timeline
1419 - The Mali remain powerful but are rapidly weakning; and the Songhai rise to challenge them.
1460 - The future ruler of the Songhai Empire, Sonni Ali leads the armies of Songhai to defeat once and for all the Mali Empire.
Middle East Timeline
1419 - The Turkic Horde returns to Anatolia where it absorbs the last of the Turkish tribes.
1420 - The Turkic Horde begins a campaign to conquer Burji Egypt.
1431 - Burji Egypt falls to the Turks.
 
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Reserved post in case I need it.
 
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Another reserved post, just in case...
 
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Maybe it'd be cool to have many different nations for example in the United States area, because in real history there were many more tribes than only the ones in the Grand Campaign scenario. But of course also the larger nations like the Aztec and Inca Empires should be included. This way, you'd get areas with lots of small nations and also areas with larger countries, much like in Europe in GC (lots of small nations in HRE, larger nations in Iberia and eastern Europe). Maybe it's also a good idea to not give everyone latin techgroup, but some Orthodox or something, to make it more diverse.

Maybe it'd be cool to have a HRE-like construction too, but I don't know it that is possible.
 
Taylor said:
Maybe it'd be cool to have many different nations for example in the United States area, because in real history there were many more tribes than only the ones in the Grand Campaign scenario. But of course also the larger nations like the Aztec and Inca Empires should be included. This way, you'd get areas with lots of small nations and also areas with larger countries, much like in Europe in GC (lots of small nations in HRE, larger nations in Iberia and eastern Europe). Maybe it's also a good idea to not give everyone latin techgroup, but some Orthodox or something, to make it more diverse.

Maybe it'd be cool to have a HRE-like construction too, but I don't know it that is possible.


I reckon it would be possible to have a Holy Roman Empire like nation in the Americas; but what "nation" would be able to form that kind of Union?
Any ideas for what states could be included besidse those that I have already thought about?
I was thinking in having a state in northern brazil comprising of the former songhai/mali colonies that became independent; also perhaps creating a nordic state called Vinland in Quebec?

Perhaps North West North/South West North/Central America could be "Latin" and North East North/South East North/South America could be "Orthodox"?
West Africa being a mix of Orthodox (former Songhai Imperial territories?) and Muslim (Such as the Mali?)?
With no change to East Asia?

EDIT:
Also what about a new map?
Maybe someone could help with that?
 
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Yes, Vinland would be cool. I didn't know the Songhai colonized northern Brazil, but if they did, that'd be cool to add, too.

As for a HRE-like construction: it is thinkable that one of the tribes united a large number of tribes under them but then their empire got more and more decentralized in much the same way as happened to the Holy Roman Empire in Europe. Then you'd have a Holy <enter your tribe here> Empire.

As for the map: There probably already exist maps with no permanent terra incognita in America... but maybe you want to add more detail to the American part of these maps. But I don't know anything about modding EU2, so I can't help you with that, sorry.

There were lots of tribes in America, I ran a search on it and I found very long lists of tribes... for example take a look at here. Also, a lot of the provinces in America on the EU2 vanilla map have names which are actually names of tribes that lived there.
 
Interesting concept. :)

How about having a timeline where Europe never emerged from the Migration Period and hence consists of small tribal confederations and city-states. The Vikings arrived in America and behaved more peacefully, eventually integrating into the native american population, contributing to civilization in America and leaving behind legends of pristine lands to the east across the sea that brave people want to verify?
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
Interesting concept. :)

How about having a timeline where Europe never emerged from the Migration Period and hence consists of small tribal confederations and city-states. The Vikings arrived in America and behaved more peacefully, eventually integrating into the native american population, contributing to civilization in America and leaving behind legends of pristine lands to the east across the sea that brave people want to verify?

With migration period, do you mean the period of migration initiated by the Huns which led to the downfall of the Western Roman Empire? Because that would be quite a good idea. But then there should be some nations in Europe, although they could be like the nations in America in the GC (backward and exotic). Such as the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Franks.

Hey, maybe it'd be cool if in this alternate timeline, China has made contact with the Americans in the early Middle Ages, which could also have contributed to the level of civilization in America.

What about religion? I think everything should be from the point of view of the Americans, so even though the tribes in Europe were all made Catholic at some point, in this scenario they should be referred to as Pagans, because that's what they would have looked like for the Americans.
 
Taylor said:
With migration period, do you mean the period of migration initiated by the Huns which led to the downfall of the Western Roman Empire? Because that would be quite a good idea. But then there should be some nations in Europe, although they could be like the nations in America in the GC (backward and exotic). Such as the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Franks.
Are there any other migration periods? (to clarify: yes, that was what I ment)
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
Are there any other migration periods? (to clarify: yes, that was what I ment)

Err... not that I know of :rolleyes:... just making sure we were thinking of the same thing
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
Interesting concept. :)

How about having a timeline where Europe never emerged from the Migration Period and hence consists of small tribal confederations and city-states. The Vikings arrived in America and behaved more peacefully, eventually integrating into the native american population, contributing to civilization in America and leaving behind legends of pristine lands to the east across the sea that brave people want to verify?


I was thinking something like this maybe...

The Mongol Empire moved slightly faster in its conquests the Empire of Khwarazim fell in 1 year instead of just over 2; by 1220 the Mongols had invaded upper Persia and the Kievian Rus Empire.
By the Death of the Great Khan Temujin in 1227 Kiev lay in ruins, the Russian Principalities were forced into vassalage, Persia had fallen, and the Mongols were prepared to strike into Eastern Europe and Mesopotamia.
For 2 years the Mongols held back from invasion to observe ritual moarning for the Great Khan, after selecting Ogedei to succeed him.

After the period of moarning, Ogedei continued the campaigns sweeping into Eastern Europe and the Middle East; Baghdad was sacked by Hulegu Khan nearly 10 years earlier than historically in the 1230s while at the same time Batu Khan had invaded Hungary and Poland shattering the armies of both these states by 1238.
By the time of the death of Ogedei in 1241 the Mongol Empire had destroyed the Mameluke Sultanate, conquered the entire Eastern half of Anatolia, destroyed Poland and Hungary, conquered Bohemia, put the inhabitants of Vienna to the sword and had begun to threaten the Holy Roman Empire and Italy; so threatened was Italy that the Holy See fled to Barcelona and set up residence there.

Early in 1241 Batu Khan had the good sense and foresight to leave Subotai in charge of the armies in Europe to return to the Mongol homelands, to discuss future campaigns with the Great Khan Ogedei.
He arrived in Karakorum shortly before the Great Khans death and was thus able to prevent the election of Ogedei's incompetent son Guyuk to the position of Great Khan and ensure his own ascendancy.

From the time he became Great Khan until his own death in 1255 he held the Empire together and ensured that the campaigns against Europe, North Africa, and against the remnants of China continued.
Under Subotai Khan the Golden Horde armies in Europe continued the offensive against the Holy Roman Empire by first invading and conquering Italy; and destroying Rome in 1244, whereupon he launched a two pronged invasion of Germany.
One Army crossed the Alps and another advanced from Bohemia; the Mongol forces met the forces of the Holy Roman Emperor west of Munich. The Emperor had assembled the largest army in European history to fight the eastern devils. The result of the battle was a humilating and thoroughly devestating defeat.
Over the course of the next 6 years the Mongols laid the Empire low; destroying the urban centres that refuses to surrender - sparing those that did.

While Subotai continued his European campaign, the Il-Khanate began probing invasions across Northern Africa; against the Coptic Kingdom of Nubia, into Libya, and Tunisia.
By the time Subotai had laid low the Holy Roman Empire, Hugelu had put the inhabitants of Tunis to the sword and had begun to focus on destroying what remained of the Sultanate of Rum and of the Eastern Roman Empire.
In 1250 the Il-khanate had attacked the assembled allied Greek-Turkish army at Ankara and utterly defeated them.
The next two years(1250-1252) for both the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate were years of consolidation; the Il-Khanate mopped up what was left of the Greek Empire and the Golden Horde finished off the last of the Imperial Principalities in the low countries.

From 1253 till 1255 saw the Golden Horde achieve the dreams of Batu Khan by reaching the Ultimate Sea and destroying the Kingdom of France in the process and beginning the invasion of the Iberian peninsula.
Meanwhile the Il-Khanate finished off the last of the independent nations in the Balkans and north Africa; so that they were able to assist the Golden Horde by invading Iberia from the south, across the Gibraltar strait.

Batu Khan was the last Great Khan to hold the Empire completely together; and upon his death the Kurultai (Council of Princes) could not decide upon a clear successor and eventually the Princes agreed upon allowing Mongke Khan (one of Batu's cousins) to succeed the Great Khan nearly a year after Batu's death.
Mongke only kept the throne for 2 years before dying himself; passing the throne onto Kublai Khan. Kublai was viewed by the other Princes of the Empire with disdain because of his love for Chinese culture; and so was unable to hold the Empire together.
During his Reign the Empire staggerred from one period of unrest to another - across it, from Europe to China he and his subordinate Khans (who only barely recognised his authority and spent much of their time fighting with each other) was forced to put down rebellion after rebellion in native peoples in between wars with each other.

Pax Mongolica finally collapsed upon the death of Kublai Khan in 1294.

The death of the Great Khan saw Pax Mongolica fragment into its subordinate parts; The Golden Horde in Europe ruling from the banks of the Volga river - The Il-Khanate in the Middle East ruling from Tabriz - The Chagatai Khanate in central Asia ruling from Kashgar - and the Yuan Empire in China ruling from Beijing.
With the destruction of almost all formal European power at the hands of the Mongols in the preceeding 100 years save in the British Isles and Iberia there was no clear European government left save for the Khan of the Golden Horde; the Europeans continued to simmer with discontent and with the death of the Great Khan and the wars between the Golden Horde and the Il-Khanate both Khans in the west found themselves unable to exercise their authority outside of Russia and Mesopotamia respectively.

By 1337 a multitude of petty Kingdoms and states had formed across Europe and North Africa; and while some form of Government had returned to parts of Europe stability was far from a reality.
After many years of occupation and then conflict and anarchy; Europe had been left prostate. The people were entirely unprepared for what came upon them then - in 1337 the Black Death arrived.
Over the next 6 years the Black Death ravaged the already prostate Europe and the population plummetted; by 1343 the Plague had begun to peter off and by 1350 it had complete dissapeared - but by then over 90% of the population of Europe had been destroyed.

The rest of the world did not escape unscathed from this deadly pandemic; millions died in China, 70% of the population of the Chagatai Khanate was wiped out, further millions died in India and Indochina, and the Middle East and North Africa were also ravaged with 2/3s and 1/3 of the populations of those areas being destroyed respectively.
Further the black plague spread into West Africa and laid low the mighty Empire of Songhai(or Mali whatever we decide here) causing it to fracture into many smaller states by killing off nearly half its population and with it the Empires royal family.

This brings my "history" up to the 1350s; what you guys think?
What about between then and game start?
 
Sounds cool to me, I hadn't even considered the mongols as being the cause of the downfall of Europe... while they were so close to it.
But maybe you should add something in the history earlier, to make the Europeans less civilized when the mongols arrive, so that it becomes more plausible that the mongols succeed in destroying all political structure in Europe. Because I think that the real 13th century Europe would have been able to survive mongol occupation in much the same way as China did: by assimilating the mongol victors into their own culture.
So I'm thinking something that would have made sure the Europeans had much less political structure than they did... maybe something like: Clovis died of the flue when he was a baby so the Frankish Empire never existed and there was no Charlemagne to introduce feudalism?
 
Taylor said:
Sounds cool to me, I hadn't even considered the mongols as being the cause of the downfall of Europe... while they were so close to it.
But maybe you should add something in the history earlier, to make the Europeans less civilized when the mongols arrive, so that it becomes more plausible that the mongols succeed in destroying all political structure in Europe. Because I think that the real 13th century Europe would have been able to survive mongol occupation in much the same way as China did: by assimilating the mongol victors into their own culture.
So I'm thinking something that would have made sure the Europeans had much less political structure than they did... maybe something like: Clovis died of the flue when he was a baby so the Frankish Empire never existed and there was no Charlemagne to introduce feudalism?


Well i dont know its hard enough to rewrite 200 years of back history never mind 600-700 years of back history in addition to a timeline of 1419 till 1819...

Maybe I should have been a little clearer in my post...

I think the Mongol invasion succeeding (because the death of Ogedei is widely acknowledged as the ONLY thing that saved Europe from destruction at the hands of the GH) would have removed much of Europes political elite; and the subsequent rebellions in various parts of the Empire (China, India, Egypt/The levant, and most particularily in Europe) during the reign of the Great Khan Kublai destroyed much of the ruling classes that remained after the occupation, as well as causing further deaths amongst the general populace.
During the last years of Kublais Reign and after his death Mongol rule in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East waned and local states began to reassert themselves but as old ruling elite had been largely swept away a "new" ruling class emerged forged by steel and war; much like it had after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West.

The new states that had begun to emerge were still weak, their legitimacy was precarious at best and because of this the "authorities" were not able to take the same kind of steps they had in real history to prevent the spread of the Plague when it arrived. They were so busy fighting each other they were totally caught unawares; and as a result in 6 years 90% of the population of Europe was wiped out.

I think that pretty much takes care of the ability of Europe to get back on its feet any time soon dont you think? Leaving the continent wide open to American expansion...

There will of course be some "native" states in Europe.

However if you think that further weakening is required feel free to post additions to my little history there. :D
 
bombshellboi said:
However if you think that further weakening is required feel free to post additions to my little history there. :D

I just thought of something to weaken Europe even more... We can introduce yet another horde! I'm thinking about the Ottomans, who in their early days were still nomads. And because they find only depopulated lands in Europe and Anatolia, they stay nomads and never found an empire, but instead sack Europe for the next couple of decades until their power too begins to fade (because they have no real powerbase), and their realm falls to pieces leaving behind no authority at all for the few inhabitants that have survived, who then revert to tribal lifestyle.

Also, maybe we can have the Marinid Sultanate (in Morocco) do some slave trading in Europe, thus depopulating the continent even more ;).
 
Ok. Amended suggestion:

1) Europe doesn´t emerge/emerges less centralized and developed from the Migration period and dark ages
2) Vikings have a field day, establishing lasting kingdoms in France, England and Northern germany
3) The only semblance of pre-migration civilization left in Europe is the Byzantine Empire, but it is wrought with internal dissent and foreign threats, and when the americans arrive are about at the same level as OTL Inca Empire.
4) The Mongols arrive and drive as far as the Vistula before beeing stopped by infighting and deaths of their popular leaders. By the fifteenth century they are but a shadow of their former self, and the mighty Golden Horde might disintegrate any day now
5) Vikings arrive in North America. They later blend together with the natives to form a peculiar Norse-Indian people in Canada and what in OTL is New England. They leave behind legends of far off lands to the east as well as the knowledge to build ocean-going ships...
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
Ok. Amended suggestion:

1) Europe doesn´t emerge/emerges less centralized and developed from the Migration period and dark ages
2) Vikings have a field day, establishing lasting kingdoms in France, England and Northern germany
3) The only semblance of pre-migration civilization left in Europe is the Byzantine Empire, but it is wrought with internal dissent and foreign threats, and when the americans arrive are about at the same level as OTL Inca Empire.
4) The Mongols arrive and drive as far as the Vistula before beeing stopped by infighting and deaths of their popular leaders. By the fifteenth century they are but a shadow of their former self, and the mighty Golden Horde might disintegrate any day now
5) Vikings arrive in North America. They later blend together with the natives to form a peculiar Norse-Indian people in Canada and what in OTL is New England. They leave behind legends of far off lands to the east as well as the knowledge to build ocean-going ships...


See I appreciate the suggestions from you and taylor but you guys arent really explaining why these things take place.

Why would the states of Europe emerge from the Dark Ages less centralised and more fragmented?

What caused the Viking Raids and invasions was the promise of wealth through plunder from the various European states; if as you propose we say that none of the traditional states emerged after the fall of the Western Roman Empire (for example Britain remains divided into various Kingdoms such as Cornwall, Wessex, Mercia, etc.) instead remaining divided up into petty Kingdoms then it stands to reason that the lands the Vikings traditionally raided would not be as wealthy or attractive for plundering.
According to what you suggest only the Eastern Empire would remain stable and wealthy, the west would never get on its feet; assuming this would the Viking raids even occur? What with there being nothing beyond Scandinavia worth plundering...?

I like your suggestions, and while I dont want to go too far back to create alt-history; if you can give me a plausible reason for it id be happy to.
They r good ideas...
 
bombshellboi said:
Why would the states of Europe emerge from the Dark Ages less centralised and more fragmented?
I do not know. However, you fail to explain why the Kwarazim fell so rapidly instead of slowly, so we´re even.

What caused the Viking Raids and invasions was the promise of wealth through plunder from the various European states;
This was only one of the reasons. Colder climate, smaller harvests and there beeing too many people present in Scandinavia also contributed.
 
Hey, bombshellboi, what do you think of my Ottoman suggestion? It would nicely fill in the gap 1350-1419...
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
I do not know. However, you fail to explain why the Kwarazim fell so rapidly instead of slowly, so we´re even.


Well in history it fell in a little over 2 years - at least according to what ive read; all ive said is that it fell in 1 year instead of the historic 2. The success of the Khwarazim campaign is what then prompts the rapid invasion of lower Persia, Mesopotamia, and the Caucacus.

Historically they had armies in the Khwarazim Empire trying to capture the Khwarazim Shah - they wanted his head for the insults he and his subordinates had delivered upon the Heavenly Horde (that is the Horde of Ghengis Khan).
We could say that in our history they didnt waste the time looking for him and simply took apart his Empire and continued on?



This was only one of the reasons. Colder climate, smaller harvests and there beeing too many people present in Scandinavia also contributed.


Hmmm.
So your suggesting that the Vikings would have still invaded due to the colder climate and lack of available farmland? This might be a good reason; but I reckon the Vikings would have been more prone to migration than warfare in this case.

Ive had a read over articles on Clovis I and his descendants, on Charles Martel, Pippin the Younger, and Charlemagne.
Charles Martel founded the Carolingian Empire (that is the Empire which ruled over France, Italy, Germany, Burgundy, and Lotharingia) and defeated a massive Saracen army at Tours thus stopping the advancement of Islam into the west.
Later Pippin the Younger set himself up as "protector of the Papacy" and invaded Italy to force the Lombards to recognise Papal independence.
His son Charlemange completed his fathers work by destroying the Lombards, warring with the Saracens in Iberia (being responsible for the Liberation of the northern "Spanish March" of Iberia), and founded the Holy Roman Empire.

We could of course have an "accident" occur to Charles Martel to prevent him creating the Carolingian Empire; but then that would have tne consequence of allowing southern France come under the rule of the Saracens; not something I want to do.
The same applies to Pippin and Charlemagne; removing them would have the effect of not having the muslims being pushed out of Western Europe; which again is not something id like to explain.
But with them alive the traditional states of France, Germany, Italy, and Burgundy will all most definately form...

The failure of these states would have to come after the defeat of the Saracens of Iberia. Any ideas?


Taylor said:
Hey, bombshellboi, what do you think of my Ottoman suggestion? It would nicely fill in the gap 1350-1419...


The Turkic Horde sounds like a good idea.
But I have to put the same question to you? How would they form? Why would they remain nomadic? Why would the rape Eastern Europe and Anatolia? And even though the Golden Horde was waning, how would the Turks escape punishment from them?


EDIT:
I updated my second post with a short history of West Africa leading up to 1419.
I think its satisfactory. What you guys think?
 
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