The Fall of Europe Scenario

[Taylor]

I was thinking about giving them to nearby Colonial powers like the Maya and the Aztecs?

Hmm, that would make them a lot stronger, since there are many islands there... Maybe it'd be fun to not give them all the islands in the beginning, but have them conquer the rest during the game or something like that.

 

[kolmy]

Enjoy:

North America (East)

North America (West)

Alaska

 

[bombshellboi]

Consulting with Ethnologue.com and Wikipedia.org ive fleshed out Central America and the Caribbean.

Cultures - Nations
Caribe - Galibi Tribes, Carib Tribes
Taino - Tainoa, Lucaya, Quisquya, Boriquen
Chibchan - Cabecara Tribedom
Choco - Wounmeu
Misumalpan - Miskito
Mayan - Mayaland, Lenca Tribedom
Zapotec - Zapotec Kingdom, Mixtec Kingdom
Aztec - Aztec Empire(Triple Alliance), Tlaxcala
Tarascan - Tarascan Empire, Tarahumara
Uto - Mayo Tribedom, Yaqui Tribedom, Tohono Tribedom
Hokan - Hokan Tribedom

What you guys think?

 

[Dell19]

I've been reading the thread and I am curious whether the plan is still to have Europe totally colonisable or whether it will be filled with relatively weak nations?

I think I would prefer it if there were at least some European states and they do okay technology wise. The American nations would still be the super powers however there could be the option of a European nation keeping up technologically wise if controlled by a human player through a number of events. I accept that you might not want to do this however the histories you have developed so far seem to indicate that some European nations would exist and I think it would be more fun to have American - European interaction rather than simply reversing the continents around.

 

[Taylor]

What you guys think?

Looks good to me. Plenty of states there.

Aztec - Aztec Empire(Triple Alliance)

Do you mean the Aztec Empire will consist of three parts, having an alliance with each other (and perhaps vassalage)?

 

[kolmy]

Do you mean the Aztec Empire will consist of three parts, having an alliance with each other (and perhaps vassalage)?

He means this

 

[Taylor]

Interesting, I didn't know that...

Hey, maybe it'd be cool to put this into the scenario: you'd be able to start as Tenochtitlan and have the other two members as vassals... then when you have annexed them, you get an event which founds the unified Aztec Empire.

 

[bombshellboi]

I've been reading the thread and I am curious whether the plan is still to have Europe totally colonisable or whether it will be filled with relatively weak nations?

I think I would prefer it if there were at least some European states and they do okay technology wise. The American nations would still be the super powers however there could be the option of a European nation keeping up technologically wise if controlled by a human player through a number of events. I accept that you might not want to do this however the histories you have developed so far seem to indicate that some European nations would exist and I think it would be more fun to have American - European interaction rather than simply reversing the continents around.

There will be some small European nations surviving; those in Eastern Europe still largely dependant on the Rus and GH.
The ideas I have for surviving nations are a Gaelic-Scot nation in the Highlands of Scotland, perhaps a English-Scandic city state centred around Lindisfarne (you'll understand why when I post my history of Europe ), the mighty city state of Flanders, the Papacy in Barcelona, Granada in Granada, a spanish nation based in Asturias, a Catalan nation based in the Baelaerics, the Republic of Corsica (the remnants of the Genoan Republic), the Duchy of Apulia (the remanants of the Kingdom of Naples), perhaps Venice still survives, the Helvetic Confederacy, Viking Hannover/Oldenburg, Germanic Hansa centered around Lubeck, a small Kingdom of Krakov and a small Duchy of Masovia, the Republic of Prague, the Baltic Alliance, Lithuania, the Kingdom of the Rus, The Golden Horde, Transylvania, the Greek city states of Athens, Sparta, the Knights of St John in Rhodes, some Turkish city states in southern Anatolia, the Kingdom of Cicilia ruling Cyprus and parts of Lower Armenia, i also though of having Georgia divided up into Abghazia, Imertia, and Khaheti, and also an independent Derbent and Upper Armenia.

It will of course be possible to play these states just like its possible to play the Native states in Vanilla.
However if and when the Americans arrive then expect to be owned at least until the colonial empires begin falling apart. lol.

Feel free to make any further suggestions.

Interesting, I didn't know that...

Hey, maybe it'd be cool to put this into the scenario: you'd be able to start as Tenochtitlan and have the other two members as vassals... then when you have annexed them, you get an event which founds the unified Aztec Empire.

Well as the three member states all exist within Tenochtitlan province its a bit difficult...
And by 1419 the Triple Alliance is largely ruled by the Aztecs from Tenochtitlan anyway that the other tribes have become subservient; its why Tlaxcala joined the Spanish when they came to invade and deposed the Aztec Emperor.

Id like though (if Tlaxcala survives) for there to be some form of conflict between them and the Aztecs during the reign of the weak Montezuma II.
If the Aztecs already conquered them then perhaps a rebellion?

 

[Dell19]

There will be some small European nations surviving; those in Eastern Europe still largely dependant on the Rus and GH.
The ideas I have for surviving nations are a Gaelic-Scot nation in the Highlands of Scotland, perhaps a English-Scandic city state centred around Lindisfarne (you'll understand why when I post my history of Europe ), the mighty city state of Flanders, the Papacy in Barcelona, Granada in Granada, a spanish nation based in Asturias, a Catalan nation based in the Baelaerics, the Republic of Corsica (the remnants of the Genoan Republic), the Duchy of Apulia (the remanants of the Kingdom of Naples), perhaps Venice still survives, the Helvetic Confederacy, Viking Hannover/Oldenburg, Germanic Hansa centered around Lubeck, a small Kingdom of Krakov and a small Duchy of Masovia, the Republic of Prague, the Baltic Alliance, Lithuania, the Kingdom of the Rus, The Golden Horde, Transylvania, the Greek city states of Athens, Sparta, the Knights of St John in Rhodes, some Turkish city states in southern Anatolia, the Kingdom of Cicilia ruling Cyprus and parts of Lower Armenia, i also though of having Georgia divided up into Abghazia, Imertia, and Khaheti, and also an independent Derbent and Upper Armenia.

It will of course be possible to play these states just like its possible to play the Native states in Vanilla.
However if and when the Americans arrive then expect to be owned at least until the colonial empires begin falling apart. lol.

Feel free to make any further suggestions.

That was sort of how I felt the nations would be arranged. I had the same thought that it would make sense to have a Dutch nation that was strong. I was thinking of having something like the Hanseatic League in Northern Germany who accepted to become vassals rather than be destroyed. I am interested to hear your storyline for Scandinavian nations and the British Isles. I was thinking it would be more divided however it would make sense. Maybe Ireland should exist but be very weak?

I think that the Iberian situation seems to make sense if the Pope fled there and the Muslim invasion was less successful. Perhaps there could be a Basque state in the area. The other possible nation to include would be Sicily or a Greek island state that grew in power as refuges fled to safety.

It would be nice if these European states were treated like the Asian nations in mods like AGCEEP so they are not that powerful however they cannot simply be wiped out in one go. Ireland, Iceland, northern Norway, France, parts of Germany would be specifically colonisable by North American nations whilst the Europeans are unable to colonise. This would then allow for some American arrival events where the European nations could collapse, survive, benefit or in the late game try and repulse the newcomers.

Basically I'm having a difficult time believing that even after so many disasters that Europe would be relegated to the same level of the North American nations in EU2. Mainly because the religions in the area would still survive and technology and trade could still come from the neighbouring continents. Which leads me to ask what religion will the Hordes be? Will they be Sunni or is there the chance that one of the Asian religions would have spread west? Does China even exist and if not what exists there? I would say yes but perhaps in a weaker position.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Interesting concept Bombshellboi.

Alas I don't think I can devote any time to this, but I can give you some historical Amerindian placements.

Apache 19 1477 1478 1479
Cherokee 55 61
Creek 48 54
Dakota Sioux 75 76 77 78
Lenape 85 86 87
Huron 97 98 106
Shawnee 67 71 72
Iroquois 70 83 84 89 90 91
Ojibwa 93 94 95 96
Menominee 79 80 74
Potawatomi 81 82
Tuscarora 65 66
Powhatan 69
Ottawa 107 108
Cree 133 134 135 136 131 132
Choctaw 51 52 53
Osage 57
Illinois 59
Caddo 1480 1481 44
Saux-Fox 73
Miamis 60
Pueblo 22 40 42
Alnanbal 101 105
Sahnish/Arikara 58
Chickasaw 56
Chumash 11 1476 1475 (this could easily be split into 3, should you have the tags)
Hopi 14 16 18
Mohicans 88 99 100
Neutrals 92
Massacheusetts 103 104
Seminole 49
Micmac 112 113 114 115

you could put Slish up in the North-West territories too.

The Iroquois would be the Habsburgs of NA. They tried to establish a 'Covenant Chain' much like a grand alliance and confederation (outside the six nations) but it wasn't popular. perhaps they thought of it earlier and was more sucessful in your timeline.

At anyrate if you want more stuff on the tribes I gave above , just ask.

Ayeshteni

 

[bombshellboi]

Dell -

The tech groups are to be reordered of course.

Its vital for the Scenario that the Amerindian nations lead the way in the latin/orthodox tech groups.
What do you suggest for the others?


Aye -

Thats really helpful mate.

 

[Dell19]

Something similar to the tech progressions that the Mamluks have? I'm not sure how AGCEEP does the technology groups since I cannot find where it specifies technology groups. Maybe a couple of nations in Iberia should have a slightly better tech group and Flanders as well.

So for instance if Mamluk tech rate was 20% then the Iberian nations and Flanders could have 25-30%. What tech rate were you planning to give the Golden Horde etc? As it would probably make sense to give them the 20% tech rate and their vassals in the area should probably have a matching rate. I'm just guessing that the tech rate for the Mamluks is 20% as I have no idea. Btw I would quite like to try writing some events for the European nations once the history gets established a bit more. There could be some religious warfare events between Christian and Muslim Iberia causes further problems for the Europeans. Maybe if Barcelona is captured then Iberia becomes pagan and a new Pope is elected in the north?

 

[bombshellboi]

Well the catastrophy which almost completely wipes out Europes population is the Mongol Invasion shattering the top most level of Government (most capitals and major cities are sacked and burned, the populace of these centres put to the sword) leaving only the parts of the local artistocracy that cooperated with them alive. In subsequent years revolts led by portions of this surviving aristocracy are violently and brutally put down causing the only class capable of properly governing to yet further weaken.

Subsequently Golden Horde rulership over Europe is passed onto a new sub division referred to as the "Green Horde" - officially the Europa Khanate. Further division causes further conflict between the Hordes, and then further rebellion.
Green Horde control of Europe wanes due to the rebellions until eventually only Eastern Europe remains firmly in Mongol control, the west is in chaos ruled largely by the rising petty kingdoms.
The death knell of the Europa Khanate isnt delivered by the Europeans but by its rival the Golden Horde; who defeats it at the Battle of Lvov.

The Black death then arrives in Europe in 1337 largely depopulating the region; over 90% of the population is wiped out and what remains of of the Green Horde dissapears.
Whats left is a sporadic collection of city states surviving due to a combination of luck and location. Others rise after the black death dissapears when peoples converge on the surviving major population centres such as Flanders.

Its been nearly 100 years since; the remaining states are extremely weak due to the loss of Europes massive population base; for 100 years all research stopped and what advances reached Europe came from the East and from West Africa.
Europe has almost no ability to advance on its own. This should be represented in game by an extremely slow tech rate. Exotic or Chinese.

 

[doronz]

Hi guys,
I really like your idea! That's what I've really been waiting for to find! My idea about tech groups is that there should not be so much tech group differences and no religion tech bonus/malus (I'd say most of countries in muslim groups, the weakest in chinese and the strongest in the orthodox one) and then many more random events to shift to a better tech group if you keep a high inno or to a lower one if you keep a high narro.
And being pagan should not be so penalising as it is now. I'd suggest most religions should have the same conditions.
What do you think?

P.S.: I'd really like to work together with you in this mod.

 

[Dell19]

Sounds interesting. What happens to the hordes afterwards? Are they still strong or will they be suffering from succession wars like in reality? Additionally what happened to the Muslims in North West Africa? Did they get decimated by the hordes/plague as well and how do they fit into Iberia? I guess it would make sense that they have been weakened as well and have come to live in peace with their Christian neighbours for the time being. Maybe one of the neighbouring Christian nations could even have a series of events where they could become Sunni perhaps similar to the Albanian events in AGCEEP that could be triggered if the Sunni nation in Granada has expanded in Iberia. Some Papal events could lead to an eventual return to Rome after about 200 years if certain events occur.

Was it mentioned earlier that the American people had already been exposed to the plague? Even if the answer was yes it could still make sense to have some minor plague events for them when they discover Europe and maybe it could work both ways. This could depend on which province is colonised first.

 

[doronz]

I reckon it would be possible to have a Holy Roman Empire like nation in the Americas; but what "nation" would be able to form that kind of Union?
Any ideas for what states could be included besidse those that I have already thought about?
I was thinking in having a state in northern brazil comprising of the former songhai/mali colonies that became independent; also perhaps creating a nordic state called Vinland in Quebec?

Perhaps North West North/South West North/Central America could be "Latin" and North East North/South East North/South America could be "Orthodox"?
West Africa being a mix of Orthodox (former Songhai Imperial territories?) and Muslim (Such as the Mali?)?
With no change to East Asia?

EDIT:
Also what about a new map?
Maybe someone could help with that?

I've never heard of these theories over Songhai colonies in northern Brazil. Where did you find info about it? While I've read some articles about a possible chinese discovery of America in 1421.
I think that we have to be careful. In my opinion this mod should have the conditions for contacts between American nations and Songhai, Vikings and, if you agree, China, before that major Europeans discovered America.
An idea could be some explorers events for these countries, if some conditions are matched (eg. high inno, but we can discuss about it).
I still haven't understood what should be the starting date according to you. Any tips?

 

[Dell19]

I would suggest using the normal timeframe for the sake of simplicity.

 

[Taylor]

I think the Europeans should have a very low tech rate. This is still a scenario that reverses the roles of Europe and America. Orthodox is a way too fast tech group in my opinion. If you make one European nation Orthodox, you'd have to make all american nations Latin, because otherwise they would be advancing at the same rate. And only Latin-teched americans is a bit boring... I'd say Chinese techgroup is good enough for the Europeans.

 

[bombshellboi]

I've never heard of these theories over Songhai colonies in northern Brazil. Where did you find info about it? While I've read some articles about a possible chinese discovery of America in 1421.
I think that we have to be careful. In my opinion this mod should have the conditions for contacts between American nations and Songhai, Vikings and, if you agree, China, before that major Europeans discovered America.
An idea could be some explorers events for these countries, if some conditions are matched (eg. high inno, but we can discuss about it).
I still haven't understood what should be the starting date according to you. Any tips?

This is Plausible Alternate History mate.

The Mali didnt establish colonies in the Americas though at thier height under Mansa Kankan Musa it was definately possible had they the prerequisite technology and naval ports.

In this Alt History the Mali colonised parts of South America, and Vinland became a proper colony.

Read the history i posted on the first page for West Africa.

And yes the time frame is the normal one 1419 to 1819.

Btw the Papacy will not return to Rome; the Mongols destroyed it. Therefore "roma" province sits uncolonised.

Id like the European nations to be playble yes but the whole point of this Scenario is the traditional roles of colonisation are reversed.

Morocco exists and I think at some point will probably annex Sunni Iberia; perhaps after Aztecland/Mayaland have colonised parts of the Region?

About China - im not sure if I want to give China Zheng He in this history. Id like if possible to have a 3 Kingdoms like scenario in China at the start or perhaps shortly after the start?
Say perhaps during the Manchurian invasion, when Beijing falls the Ming flee south, the Qing set up shop in the north annexing Manchuria; and perhaps a western state rebels and sets up an independent state?

Perhaps Chinese contact with the Americas would be a good compulsion for the Incans and Haida(or other western seaboard nation) to colonise the pacific basin.
After all thats what led the Europeans west - to find Fabled Cathay and Cipango (China and Japan lol).

 

[Dell19]

Rome destroyed Carthage, where is Tunis roughly located now? The Mongols may have destroyed the city but they would not have destroyed nearly two thousand years of history. Its fine if you don't want Rome to be rebuilt but it could be.

Maybe Japan send the equivalent of Zheng He's fleet and become a colonial nation?