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Ok, I have made up a story which hopefully answers your questions. Feel free to add and modify things in it of course, it´s only an idea.


The Ottomans were Turkish settlers that had fled from China to settle in the Seljuk empire around ~1230. However, after the Il-Khanate defeated the Seljuk and Byzantine armies in Anatolia in 1250, they were evicted and forced to emigrate to Macedonia, where they were used as mercenaries to raid the small remaining parts of the Byzantine empire and other small countries like Bulgaria, Serbia and the Epirote principalities.
In the beginning, the Il-Khanate did their best to control them and to keep them away from Golden Horde possessions, however, as tensions began to rise between the Il-Khanate and the Golden Horde, the Il-Khanate gradually gave them a free hand to raid whatever they liked. When finally an all-out war erupted between the GH and the Il-K, the Ottomans were more or less free to do as they liked. As the two mongol hordes were so busy fighting each other, their grasp on the far-away parts of their realm was quickly fading.
When the Black Death wiped away most of the European population, the Ottomans quickly ran out of resources for their raiding armies, and thus had to find new lands to raid, to get more plunder. This is when they broke out of the southern-balkan region to ride north and to loot Galicia and Poland, then turning west, because the Golden Horde still had some troops to spare to oppose them at some points, and turned to Germany.
However, when they learned that the Il-Khanate was collapsing, they turned around and set out through Hungary to Anatolia, to plunder former lands of their former masters. However, when they entered Hungary, they were faced by troops from the 'Khanate of Moldavia', a former part of the GH, which had set themselves to the task to re-establish mongol control over Europe. The Ottomans managed to defeat this army and punished the Moldavians by plundering their realm, which did not only consist of Moldavia, but also of Lithuania, which they had recently conquered.
After this, the Ottomans turned south again and entered Anatolia. All went well with the plundering of the western part of this land, but when they turned east, they faced the army of the recently forged Empire of Timur, by whom they were finally defeated in 1402. Because the lands they occopied were very poor and depopulated, the Ottomans did not manage to get over this crisis and lost all their territories except for Macedonia, where they now (1419) still live.


EDIT:
bombshellboi said:
We could of course have an "accident" occur to Charles Martel to prevent him creating the Carolingian Empire; but then that would have tne consequence of allowing southern France come under the rule of the Saracens; not something I want to do.
The same applies to Pippin and Charlemagne; removing them would have the effect of not having the muslims being pushed out of Western Europe; which again is not something id like to explain.
But with them alive the traditional states of France, Germany, Italy, and Burgundy will all most definately form...
You could also have the Saracens first conquer southern France and then later have the mongols kick them out again...
 
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bombshellboi said:
Hmmm.
So your suggesting that the Vikings would have still invaded due to the colder climate and lack of available farmland? This might be a good reason; but I reckon the Vikings would have been more prone to migration than warfare in this case.
Of course. But migration brings them into conflict with other peoples already living there - at least in Europe.
 
Zuckergußgebäck said:
Of course. But migration brings them into conflict with other peoples already living there - at least in Europe.


Natural Viking nations to emerge would be in the following areas:

Normandy,
Anglia,
East Mercia,
Northumbria,
Galloway,
Ulster,
Dublin,
Western British Isles,
Isle of Man,
Iceland/Greenland,
Vinland/Quebec,
Frisia,
Hannover/Oldenburg,
Slesvig/Holstien,
Hessen,
Cologne/Palatine Rhine region,
Prussia,
Livonia,
Lithuania,
& Russia.

Any ideas about names for these nations?

As I said im reluctant to dissolve the Holy Roman Empire by killing off its founders; perhaps the establishment of stable viking kingdoms around europe is enough to weaken the west additionally?
At somepoint the independent Viking states should really be reabsorbed by their "parent" nations France, England, Germany etc; but perhaps being many hundred years before that is accomplished? Perhaps 1200s?


Taylor said:
The Ottomans were Turkish settlers that had fled from China to settle in the Seljuk empire around ~1230. However, after the Il-Khanate defeated the Seljuk and Byzantine armies in Anatolia in 1250, they were evicted and forced to emigrate to Macedonia, where they were used as mercenaries to raid the small remaining parts of the Byzantine empire and other small countries like Bulgaria, Serbia and the Epirote principalities.
In the beginning, the Il-Khanate did their best to control them and to keep them away from Golden Horde possessions, however, as tensions began to rise between the Il-Khanate and the Golden Horde, the Il-Khanate gradually gave them a free hand to raid whatever they liked. When finally an all-out war erupted between the GH and the Il-K, the Ottomans were more or less free to do as they liked. As the two mongol hordes were so busy fighting each other, their grasp on the far-away parts of their realm was quickly fading.
When the Black Death wiped away most of the European population, the Ottomans quickly ran out of resources for their raiding armies, and thus had to find new lands to raid, to get more plunder. This is when they broke out of the southern-balkan region to ride north and to loot Galicia and Poland, then turning west, because the Golden Horde still had some troops to spare to oppose them at some points, and turned to Germany.
However, when they learned that the Il-Khanate was collapsing, they turned around and set out through Hungary to Anatolia, to plunder former lands of their former masters. However, when they entered Hungary, they were faced by troops from the 'Khanate of Moldavia', a former part of the GH, which had set themselves to the task to re-establish mongol control over Europe. The Ottomans managed to defeat this army and punished the Moldavians by plundering their realm, which did not only consist of Moldavia, but also of Lithuania, which they had recently conquered.
After this, the Ottomans turned south again and entered Anatolia. All went well with the plundering of the western part of this land, but when they turned east, they faced the army of the recently forged Empire of Timur, by whom they were finally defeated in 1402. Because the lands they occopied were very poor and depopulated, the Ottomans did not manage to get over this crisis and lost all their territories except for Macedonia, where they now (1419) still live.


Sounds good.

Perhaps a single unified Turkic Horde? Or perhaps fracture the Turkic peoples even more than in history at 1419?
Either way im thinking of having them be based in Egypt and the Levant, perhaps also Mesopotamia? Rather than Anatolia...

In my history here ive said that the Mongols wiped out the Mameluke Sultanate so a replacement for them in that area would be good. I want East/South Africa to be stronger than North/West Africa.


EDIT:
You could also have the Saracens first conquer southern France and then later have the mongols kick them out again...


Naw as I said I want the traditional states to form; and without a Carolingian Empire to do this I doubt they would have formed at all.
And without them id have to account for the spread of Islam into south/west europe; too much work there. Perhaps the reconquisita wasnt as successful? And Cordoba survived in the south tho largely reduced in power? It also explains why Spain was unable to assist the French/German attempts at resisting the Mongols in any serious way.

This would allow perhaps for a surviving "Papacy" in Barcelona - What can we do to prevent the whole CB on whoever controls Rome thing?
 
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bombshellboi said:
Either way im thinking of having them be based in Egypt and the Levant, perhaps also Mesopotamia? Rather than Anatolia...

In my history here ive said that the Mongols wiped out the Mameluke Sultanate so a replacement for them in that area would be good. I want East/South Africa to be stronger than North/West Africa.

Hmm, then the end of the story should be a little different:
the Ottomans did not meet Timur in Anatolia (for example they were too early), but succeeded in plundering eastern Anatolia, then turned south to raid the Levant and finally entered Egypt, then turned around to go to Mesopotmia, but met Timur there and were defeated...

Or: Timur did defeat the Ottomans in Anatolia in 1402, Timur conquered Anatolia and the southern Balkans and forced the Ottomans to migrate to Egypt to help him gain control over Northern Africa.


Because it would not make sense for them to plunder Europe if the Ottomans were based in Egypt all along.


A fractured Horde, or a Horde about to fracture would be cool I think.
 
Ive updated the history to include that of the Middle east.

What you guys think?
 
Wow, it looks very realistic! All events seem equally reasonable... I hardly noticed this wasn't real history! (until of course the Il-Khanate began conquering Egypt and Anatolia)
 
Taylor said:
Wow, it looks very realistic! All events seem equally reasonable... I hardly noticed this wasn't real history! (until of course the Il-Khanate began conquering Egypt and Anatolia)


Well most of it IS real history researched courtesy of Google and Wikipedia.

There are some deviations here and there to account for the differences of the time line later on.
I want the scenario to be as plausible as possible; I dont want to just go "well the Mongols did this, the Plague did that, the Vikings did this, so Europe is dead - oh and so is north africa. So thats that. Ready for the backward horseless, shipless Natives of the Americas to colonise."

I wanted to say why that is.

So far ive only done "histories" for West Africa, and the Middle East.
The Mid East took me 4 hours to research and type out.

Europe is going to be a nightmare I have to say. lol.
 
Yes, I can imagine Europe is going to be one hell of a job...

But the most difficult task is probably to explain how the native Americans (like you said, backward, horseless and shipless) became so advanced that they could colonize at all. There probably has to be a cause that is very early in history, so you're gonna have to rewrite a lot of history.
 
Well no actually thats already taken care of.

The Mali colonisation into South America takes care of the introduction of horses and ships the the continent; at least to the southern part.
And I was thinking that with the Vikings discovering Vinland; and having a much more settling/conquering than raiding nature than in history, they establish proper colonies there and later when the black plague strikes some more manage to escape across the ocean to fable Vinland which takes care of the north.

As it would be several hundred years from the initial Vinland/New Maliland colonisation of Americas (and possibly even an early game discovery of America by Zheng He) would give plenty of time for the western technological ideas to spread; soon breeding and trading of horses would occur.

Where im having difficulty in that respect is explaining the more centralised state many of the northern native empires would have...


About Europe; before i can write a history for it im still wondering about ideas for why it would be less powerful historically as to be unable to fight the Horde?
Like I said I dont want to remove Charles Martel, Pippin the Younger, or Charlemange; their removable would mean the dissapearance of the Carolingian Empire and then that would mean that France, and the HRE wouldnt form, it would also mean Islam would have spread at the very least into southern France and the Papacy would have been unable to flee to Barcelona OR Avignon during the Mongol invasion.

I think Zucker is maybe annoyed at me for asking for clarification on his ideas...
 
Hmm, that's really difficult... with those historical figures everything seems very fixed... there's only one thing I can think of:
The Seljuks were able to destroy the Byzantine Empire. I have read somewhere that only the Bosphorus saved the Empire after the disastrous battle of Manzikert. But how would the Seljuks be able to cross it? I can't think of a reason. Maybe if they got a fleet somewhere... Anyway, with the Seljuks in control of the Bosphorus, the crusades would have been much less successful, maybe they would have never happened... which means the Europeans never got into contact with the more advanced Arabs.
 
Taylor could you help me out here?

Could you maybe find out some information on south american native nations? The only ones ive ever heard of is the Incans and the Chimu...and thats cos of Eu2. lol.

Im gonna start researching for the Europe 800-1419 history.
 
bombshellboi said:
Could you maybe find out some information on south american native nations? The only ones ive ever heard of is the Incans and the Chimu...and thats cos of Eu2. lol.

There are the Chancas, the rival of the Incas that were defeated by them, the Aymara Kingdoms (Collo Empire, The Lupacas), The Chimú, The Incas, Pachacamac, Chachapoias, Quito. In Brazil there's also the Tupi. That's all I can remember.

There's a pretty good map about the South America:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Late-intermediate-peru.png
 
kolmy said:
There are the Chancas, the rival of the Incas that were defeated by them, the Aymara Kingdoms (Collo Empire, The Lupacas), The Chimú, The Incas, Pachacamac, Chachapoias, Quito. In Brazil there's also the Tupi. That's all I can remember.

There's a pretty good map about the South America:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Late-intermediate-peru.png


Do you know when that maps date? It looks to be before the formation of the Incan Empire...

EDIT:
It seems like a lot of these nations were rivals to the Incans long after 1419...

Doing a bit of research on Wikipedia ive managed to glean some culture groups and nations for the SA.
Any further help Taylor or anyone else can provide would be great; to fill in the blanks.

Cultures - Nations
Quito - Quito Tribedom
Chimu - Chimor, Chancay, Sican Tribedom
Quechua - Incaland, Nazca, Huanca
Aymara - Collo Empire, Lupaca Tribedom
Guarani - Kaiowa, Nandeva, M'bya, Tupi Tribedom
Colonial Mali(Working Name) - Hopefully divide up the Colonial Mali into several states, preferably 3.

This fills up most of SA provinces save for the following:
158, 159, 157, 156, 155, 154, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 190, 189, 188, 176, 177, 228, 229, 230, 227, 226, 225, 224, & 1486.
 
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bombshellboi said:
Do you know when that maps date? It looks to be before the formation of the Incan Empire...

It was at 1438, in 1419, the Chancas must also be included, and is war with the Inca Empire can determine the future of the SA.

Here the source I took the image
 
bombshellboi said:
Cultures - Nations
Quito - Quito Tribedom
Chimu - Chimor, Chancay, Sican Tribedom
Quechua - Incaland, Nazca, Huanca
Aymara - Collo Empire, Lupaca Tribedom
Guarani - Kaiowa, Nandeva, M'bya, Tupi Tribedom
Colonial Mali(Working Name) - Hopefully divide up the Colonial Mali into several states, preferably 3.

This fills up most of SA provinces save for the following:
158, 159, 157, 156, 155, 154, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 190, 189, 188, 176, 177, 228, 229, 230, 227, 226, 225, 224, & 1486.

I don't know if Quito really had a different culture from Incas, a more correct name would be Moche
 
I found a site, called Ethnologue.com, which seems to be a database of currently spoken languages. It has maps and number of speakers of a lot of languages. It's a great tool to find tribes if one assumes that speakers of the same language can be considered to belong to the same people.

For example, here's a map of the languages spoken in venezuela. The largest (in number of speakers) tribes here are:
- Wayuu
- Warao
- Yanomamö
- Piaroa
- Carib
- Pemon
- Guahibo


Of course, the present-day numbers might not reflect the historical figures very well, but since there's is very little information about the history of these peoples, it's almost the only information we've got. I mean: it's more probable that a currently extinct tribe in the past had less people than a tribe which currently still has say 10000 people than the other way around.


What are you going to do about the caribean islands?
 
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Here are some tribes from Colombia. Maps are here and here. The most important tribes are:

- Wayuu
- Páez
- Awa-Cuaiquer
- Guahibo
- Emberá-Catío
- Arhuaco
- Emberá, Northern
- Inga
- Emberá-Chamí
- Cogui
- Inga, Jungle

Note that for some reason, the Emberá and the Inga are devided into subgroups. Probably this is because they speak quite different variants of the same language. For this scenario, this may not be so important. The list with their numbers added reads: Wayuu, Páez, Emberá, Awa-Cuaiquer, Inga,...etc.
 
Note that the languages aren't cultures. Anyway, I got some North American Maps if you want.
 
Cultures - Nations
Moche - Quito Tribedom
Chimu - Chimor, Chancay, Sican Tribedom
Quechua - Incaland, Nazca, Huanca
Aymara - Collo Empire, Lupaca Tribedom
Guarani - Kaiowa, Nandeva, M'bya
Guahibo - Guahiban Tribedom
Choco - Wounmeu
Salivan - Piraroa
Wara - Warao
Amazon - Amazonia, Iamapa Kingdom, Tupi Tribedom
Parnaiban Mali - Parnaiba, New Maliland, Maraiba
Maxakali - Maxakal
Araucanian - Mapdungun, Huilliche Kingdom, Telhuelche Tribedom

I know languages dont necessarily mean cultures or nations; but those maps helped flesh out SA territories. Every province now occupied. Including Panama.

Maps of NA would be good yes.
 
Taylor said:
What are you going to do about the caribean islands?

I was thinking about giving them to nearby Colonial powers like the Maya and the Aztecs?

I was thinking the Aztecs and Maya could have a Spain to Portugal type relationship?