The Great Game 2

[Kujy]

I'm not disputing the legality of Ego's actions, but rather the reason behind it. What unnerved me (and caused me to launch my barrage of curses, for which I apologize) was that Ego apparently found it funny in making sure I remain his vassal, whatever gamey and dirty way possible. And the "I'd turn on him in the future" excuse is pure shait, France is at the very bottom of the "Places I want my regiments to spend the summer" list, Iberia is my priority right now. At the rate I'm going it's going to be a long while until Castile/Leon is rebuilt so that it maintains some semblance of a kingdom. Hell, at the moment I am only able to raise a pathetic 3000-4000 men; as the king of Hungary (Friday MP game) I have vassalized duchies that can raise more than that.

 

[Varyar]

The session was really hard indeed, just tell me, did you stop after I dropped (my ISP went down again) or later (and how much).

I believe we continued playing for a very short while, and then quit.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

2.It was my fault BurningEGO had so much BB, so it's not his fault France was screwed up. I would like to ask that next time when Im nowhere to see CSK does this little BB edit (could you CSK?).

I didn't know I should do it. I will do next time of course. But as you, I also rarely had time at all.

The session was really hard indeed, just tell me, did you stop after I dropped (my ISP went down again) or later (and how much).
Also, Tzare, could you upload the latest save and provide a link?

We played on a bit. But after Sterk had another CTD and Stiborg and me were lagging a lot we skipped playing.

Two things reagrding the time. Could we possibly start on 15:00 GMT? And play at least to 20:00 GMT?

 

[binTravkin]

You mean as to adjust the time to what it was?

 

[unmerged(48100)]

You mean as to adjust the time to what it was?

Yes. So most players start exactly the same time as they did before.

I know it's not the best thing as I don't like the summertime myself. But I think it's the best way to stay the same time for host and GM.

 

[BurningEGO]

1.BurningEGO was not gonna be banned, however his connection was very slow and I'd recommend a faster one to not clump the whole party. Also I would recommend you to consider becoming a bit more serious about the game. Noone expects you to pop out without explanation when host is already hovering his mouse over 'Start' button.

If memory serves, i said i had to re-enter CK, because i "tabbed" the game to close ICQ, as you said... somehow, after the "tab" everything got screwed. It took like 10 seconds to re-enter CK... I am sorry for taking so much time of your life. About my conection, i don't think that is the problem... i play many other games and i never had a problem with it. If you noticed, i posted in the "technical forum" that i had a problem with SP mode, but this is no issue to be spoken here.

Ego apparently found it funny in making sure I remain his vassal, whatever gamey and dirty way possible. And the "I'd turn on him in the future" excuse is pure shait, France is at the very bottom of the "Places I want my regiments to spend the summer" list

Yes, it is funny to have a human player as vassal... a good player would never end like that. I do not care if you are good, or not, but if you ever played eu2, which i played like hell, you should know that spain owns. Spain is the first country to colonize the new world (apart from portugal, but since there are few posibilities that a portugal will apear, spain will be the first one). Not to mention the mountains of gold that both inca and aztec empires give to you, and not to mention the "treaty of tordesillas", spain gets easy provinces (whole caribean islands, incan, aztec empires, lousiana, florida and columbia as well, not to speak about argentina). Ah, did i forgot to tell you, the "permanent" casus belli on every single infidel? Spain is so ubber, that it could smash France pretty easy. Of course, you will not want to kill me now, as you are too weak, but in eu2 things will change... dramatically. After a possible incursion of Italy and north africa, not to speak about the new world, what would you conquer? France, of course. And don't come and tell me you would attack far-away countries like China or England. Now that is what you call, uhm, pure shait

3.It was fully legal to make peace for France to deny Kujy expansion, however, in interests of prolonged fun with the game, it was very bad to do so, as Castile was struggling as it was and now it seems dying. We cannot afford to lose a player because of other player's ambition. At least not this early.

Like stated before, you guys really wanted me to dig my own grave. I know that countries like Russia or Poland are so far away, that they will never enter into direct conflict with spain. I can tell you what you are doing: giving an easy start to spain, while dooming mine, and perhaps even others future. If the spanish player manages to do what i think he will do, when you get into hoi, you will see a spanish empire, even stronger then germany. What would be the point of a ww2 with a spain stretching over the world?

Oh well, you will remember my words later on... but then, it will be too late.

 

[Varyar]

BurningEGO, you forget the player aspect. Who said anything about letting Kujy have all of Spain? You yourself (France) could definetly grab chunks of Iberia. And even if he would become über in EU2, so what? Do you not think that the combined forces of the other players could keep Spain at bay? Hell, we could even see a "race to Madrid" where players gang up on Spain to gain map access to the New World and early colonization. What happens further ahead in the game is far from settled.

However, by trying to prevent future problems, you chose a course of action that didn't only hamper a player in a weak position, but also destroyed much of the fun in playing for him. It's just a game.

 

[Kujy]

Jeez, talk about a major case of paranoia. Despite what you may think, nobody was out to get you. And if we were, then may I be struck down by the almighty F12 foot shall the minutes of the "How to screw over BurningEgo" meeting (Over which I was presiding) surface.

Yes, it is funny to have a human player as vassal... a good player would never end like that.

Um, ok, then you try playing as a tiny Iberian kingdom with Muslims breathing down your neck. And may I add that if I knew it was going to go down like that in-game, I would have faster pledged to an infidel realm and let them rape my duchy rather than have the paranoid French King do it.

 

[Sterkarm]

Once again, I have to agree with Ego. He was fighting for his future and being a long-term player. If you think what he did made it not fun for the player to play, did you follow MTT much? I couldn't attack anything without the entire world, except Burgundy, ganging up on me. I couldn't fight a single 1v1 war even though I was probably tied with 2 other countries for the most powerful nation. I was being attacked all the time nonstop. Did I complain? Most certainly. However, I kept playing and I realized that there are some times when the game is not fun, but that it will get fun later on. Now, in EU2 I am in the position where the rest of the world views Poland as a shattered empire, which, IMO, is a good view for the world to have of you.

Furthermore, I've had experience with players becoming far too dominant because of my kindness. Example: Italy in MTT. They started as the Duchy of Apulia and immediately got into a war with heathens that they couldn't handle. I, on a massive crusade to Jerusalem, stopped by to help them out and single-handedly saved them from the heathens. After I asked to temporarily take a province from the heathens and then return it after my crusade, I was yelled at and immediately Italy threatened war. Italy proceded to, in the future, conquer all of the Italian peninsula and lead alliance after alliance to attack me. I learned my lesson to not help people out merely to make the game fun for them.

Not to mention an example in MTT of how dominant Spain can become. Even in CK, with so many wealthy provinces, a united Spain can rule the world for numerous reasons: 1) many aforementioned wealthy provinces which, if all controlled by one power, are massively profitable 2) Spain is far away from most large powers besides France and it would take a naval war to invade for most kingdoms (and believe me, naval wars are very hard to pull off in CK) 3) the heathens that control most of Spain are easy conquests, especially if France and Italy simply sit by and watch 4) Spain has many options for expansion into the Mediterranean and North Africa, as well as the Holy Land eventually

The above is why I recommended a second Iberian power because, in history, Iberian christians were anything but united and they often fought against each other in an attempt to gain power over Iberian Christendom.

Two last notes:

I think that comment about no good player ending up as a human vassal is out of line, Ego. It's happened to a lot of people and making a generalization like that is simply a cheap jab.

Also, Ego was not doing anything to attack or damage Castille. All he was doing was limiting (halting rather) expansion. If he directly attacked and annexed Castille, then ok, that's pushing it too far, but he did not attack you at all. And Ego, in MTT I was not afraid of Norway at the beginning, but at the beginning of MTT I was afraid of Norway's potential and rightly so. One has to think of the far future in a game of this scale.

Oh and Varyar, I mean no offense, but have you played an EU2 game with Spain in the hands of a relatively good player? From your comments, I'm guessing not. I played The Friday Night NA Game with Barca as Spain. He dominated all of Africa, South America, Central America, Iberia, and Italy. His only ally: Portugal, which was essentially his lapdog (it was his vassal for nearly 50 years straight and the breakoff was mutual). We couldn't bring him down. A grand coalition of France, Austria, England, and the Ottoman Empire failed miserably at checking his power and we were left to his whim (but he was a fair player and didn't absolutely crush us). That was simply an illustration of how powerful Spain can be, without a massive edge gained in CK.

 

[Kujy]

I was being attacked all the time nonstop. Did I complain? Most certainly. However, I kept playing and I realized that there are some times when the game is not fun *snip*

Well in spite of what Ego did and my bitching that followed, remember that I did keep playing. It was the French player who left, but not before pretty much ruining his kingdom.

Oh, and why is it being assumed Castile will continue into EUII being led by the same player?

 

[Sterkarm]

Well in spite of what Ego did and my bitching that followed, remember that I did keep playing. It was the French player who left, but not before pretty much ruining his kingdom.

Oh, and why is it being assumed Castile will continue into EUII being led by the same player?

I was just pointing that out for future reference if a certain Kingdom of Italy happens to be crushed by a mighty Spanish, French, Serbian, German, and Bulgarian invasion.

It's not being assumed, but whether it's played by the same player or not, it will still have a significant advantage. Also, are you not continuing onto EU2 with us?

 

[BurningEGO]

Kujy, if you do not want to play eu2, then i could take up your empty slot, then you will see what i mean (and, no, i do not lag like in CK). I remember, playing as Spain, controled south and central america, the caribean isles, north africa, italy, holland, belgium, big parts of germany, some spicey provinces in india. Guess what? My income was higher then 400 from what i remember. I never forgot that game... my income was so big, that by 1750-1780 i had all researchs done. The only empire where i had a "similar" game, was with the Timurids. Having an Empire that controlled the lands between Viena and Japan. I controled virtually all of Asia, except for puny japan and indonesia. But nothing comparing to Spain. Spain is ubber, whatever you guys say. Crushing France as Spain, was like taking candy from kids.

Oh, and Kujy, please control yourself. I do not like hearing someone saying that i am suffering from a "paranoia". My gaming experience has told me to never understimate my potential foes. I remember in age of empires 2, games where i could simply have rushed my enemies, but they were totally defenseless. I let em live, guess what? Later on they turned to be stronger then me and eventually i lost.

 

[Kujy]

Oh, and Kujy, please control yourself. I do not like hearing someone saying that i am suffering from a "paranoia".

Like stated before, you guys really wanted me to dig my own grave.

Hey, if the post fits...

My gaming experience has told me *snip*

Don't lump me with some immature teenagers you played with online, please. In MP I try to play honorably, CSK can somewhat vouch for me here.

I was just pointing that out for future reference if a certain Kingdom of Italy happens to be crushed by a mighty Spanish, French, Serbian, German, and Bulgarian invasion.

Sorry if I don't know what you're up to Sterk, but are you talking about this game or MTT?

Also, are you not continuing onto EU2 with us?

I haven't decided, especially since I'm really rusty with EUII, haven't played it in a looong while.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

Sterk: Easy conquest of the Mediterranean is out of question. Kujy would have to fight a player if he wants to take that. So I really don't think he'll do that. Germany will not be that easy to gain control either, and taking Africa is in CK with this rules except Tunisia nearly impossible. That will make his expansion in CK relatively hard.

Also, have you seen Granada? That would soon have attacked Castille and also Kujy later on. And it is strong enough to take out France at the moment. What would EGO have done? Fearing to lose lands and refusing to help? Or help, but come too late and thus lose Kujy. I think that wouldn't be bad for him, he would just have one enemy less and more land. What would be the difference between a strong Spain and a strong France with Spain? Both would be uber countries. And both should be prevented. But please, then with honourable methods. If you fear him this much, fight him when he is not your vassal anymore instead of ruining his game.

Still I think we need a major western power. One like either England or France, but I think England is better right now.

 

[binTravkin]

1.Ego - IIRC there were 2 times you popped out, one of them was rather unexpected and I even remember Sterk saying 'WTF' at the moment.

2.Ego - if you play France reasonably, there's no chance how a now barely holding and in perspective dying Castile, surrounded by superior muslims could eat your leg.
That was fully up to you to grab the king title of say Aragon, thus ensuring Spain is weak when it goes for the New World. In fact with the massive BB you had (sorry again), in your place that would be the first thing I'd do - go bash heathens with army I have and release vassals for less BB.

3.Sterk - I understand your MTT expierence with being nice, however, a France player with 15times the size and army of the Castile and no other direct enemies whatsoever does not seem to me as someone who should fear. Unless he stalls his own kingdom badly, which is fully his own fault.
Also, there's the self balance mechanismus - you just conquer spanish capital and voila - you can go colonising all it's explorations.

Sterk: Easy conquest of the Mediterranean is out of question. Kujy would have to fight a player if he wants to take that. So I really don't think he'll do that. Germany will not be that easy to gain control either, and taking Africa is in CK with this rules except Tunisia nearly impossible. That will make his expansion in CK relatively hard.

Also, have you seen Granada? That would soon have attacked Castille and also Kujy later on. And it is strong enough to take out France at the moment.

4.Again, I say it was fully legal to do what BurningEGO did, however, MP games are not your sandbox where you can do whatever you please, see - you've already upset a whole range of players, who disapprove of such politics.
You are only going to ruin your diplomacy this way.
And Im not even saying it's gamey, as a vassal could always have his wars continued IRL.


5.I offer:
- a ceasefire in forum
- editing out France's BB for next session, which should ensure it comes back together quickly.
- Ego does whatever he can to prevent huge Spain and Kujy does exactly the opposite. I would really like to see this 'spanish problem' of EU2 with the rules and situation we have.

 

[Kujy]

2.Ego - if you play France reasonably, there's no chance how a now barely holding and in perspective dying Castile, surrounded by superior muslims could eat your leg.

Wow, bin, it's good to see you're so optimistic about my current position.

5.I offer:
- a ceasefire in forum
- editing out France's BB for next session, which should ensure it comes back together quickly.
- Ego does whatever he can to prevent huge Spain and Kujy does exactly the opposite. I would really like to see this 'spanish problem' of EU2 with the rules and situation we have.

I'll gladly accept a "ceasefire", though I'm not crazy about the "Ego does whatever he wants to prevent huge Spain Kujy does opposite" part, I can only imagine what might stem from that...

e.g. one possible CK Game Log (abridged)
-summer 1095: France DOWs Castile
-autumn 1095: France sends peace offer to Castile, promptly rejected by Castile
-late 1095: French and Castillian forces fight in NE Iberia
-early 1096: Castillian player curses out French player, Polish player says "it's only a game...RP it!"
-late winter 1096: game CTD's, after looking at complete game log Castellon declares "dirty word overload" as the cause.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

The BB of France will be edited out. That's sure. And now France should be relatively stable anyway. But be sure most players are upset by one using gamey tactics when he could prevent a big Spain by taking down the Muslims himself.

Also, you cry about a few BB. Common, I had more than that and it didn't ruin my game. I lost Piemont and Savoy as well as Saluces without reason when I had a ctd. I lost Marches and Urbino. Urbino to the Pope. Still I don't annoy others with "oh no, I have more than 3 BB! I can't go on and will die!" speakings. Even with this BB you could have set it out. If you don't manage that and have to use gamey tactics instead of playing fair and taking your problems like any normal player you shouldn't play MP.

 

[binTravkin]

e.g. one possible CK Game Log (abridged)
-summer 1095: France DOWs Castile
-autumn 1095: France sends peace offer to Castile, promptly rejected by Castile
-late 1095: French and Castillian forces fight in NE Iberia
-early 1096: Castillian player curses out French player, Polish player says "it's only a game...RP it!"
-late winter 1096: game CTD's, after looking at complete game log Castellon declares "dirty word overload" as the cause.

Was this the case EGO?
You attacked Castille just because he had gotten free, and while, at the same time your country fell apart?

Did you actually send the log to Castellon, Kujy?

 

[BurningEGO]

Listen, i just played less then a year. When i entered the game, my king was still too young, and he couldnt lead an army. If he could, i would simply get the land myself instead of allowing Kujy. All i did, was peace out with Castille. Kujy got pissed, and later on he declared war once again upon Castille. I tried to peace out with Castille, they rejected. You guys were like 2 months ahead of me and i was getting pissed, because i tried to rally my army and i couldn't do a "shait". I tried to peace out with Castille again, for a last time before i left, giving out all the gold coins i could. They rejected it again (of course, i didn't win a battle). Then i asked all the titles from Kujy. As you know asking titles reduces your other vassals loyalty, so everyone declared war on me. Then i left, after all i couldn't do anything with the lag. All i could do was diplomacy. Whatever the AI did while i wasn't there isnt my fault. Like i said before, i know i shouldnt asked all the titles from Kujy, but i was so pissed with the whole lag, that i simply wanted to mess France :rofl:

Also, you cry about a few BB. Common, I had more than that and it didn't ruin my game. I lost Piemont and Savoy as well as Saluces without reason when I had a ctd. I lost Marches and Urbino. Urbino to the Pope. Still I don't annoy others with "oh no, I have more than 3 BB! I can't go on and will die!" speakings. Even with this BB you could have set it out. If you don't manage that and have to use gamey tactics instead of playing fair and taking your problems like any normal player you shouldn't play MP.

For christ sake... is it hard to understand that all that France did was TAKE ONE SINGLE GODDAMN PROVINCE? Rosseló or whatever the province is called. I still wonder how the french AI manage to get -4 rep. And no, i didn't have any problems with this. But, my greatest duke, the duke of aquitaine or poitou or whatever he is called, had negative traits. Even with no scutage, and feudal contract, he was like dropping 1 loyalty per month. So was the duke of flanders. You don't believe me, check the save. The difference between Italy and France, is that Italy took over all of southern Italy, thus the bad bb. France, all it did was take over a 2 income province.

Well, i know that Kujy didn't have "fun", lets say it. But if my worst fears of spain would emerge, then i wouldnt have "fun" either, playing as France. France in eu2 only wins spain over manpower, nothing else. And manpower is no big deal in the long run. You guys just wanted me to sacrifice my "fun" later on, so that Kujy could enjoy the current game. Now tell me, what would be the fun of playing versus a spain that could muster humongous armies without getting exhausted?

If i ever ate Spain like some of you are saying, i would never EVER over abuse my powers. If i was the strongest power and if i knew no one was a possible threat, then i would just keep colonizing the whole world over and doing other things.

Also, there's the self balance mechanismus - you just conquer spanish capital and voila - you can go colonising all it's explorations.

well, just wait for treaty of tordesillas. Spain goes with a 500 men regiment into your colonies and voila. Your whole colonies are spanish now. Thats nice, isnt it? Either i give america on a golden plate to the spanish player and go colonizing north america/india/indonesia, or i go head-to-head with my adquired casus belli, and risk being reduced to one province. And i forgot to mention that just 4 provinces in the Aztec Empire, the ones with gold, give like 150 income, not to mention the CoT, that grants an extra 60. Plus more gold mines in the Incan Empire... With that Spain beats France easily on income, thus why the reason they never get exhausted. With such gold, the Spanish player can muster troops with Top quality, easily beating my "superior" manpower.

Oh, Btw, i though that with the current rules, i couldn't conquer Spain, unless my allies/vassals were at war with the moors or if a new crusade is declared. And Cordoba wasn't that strong... Last time i checked they didn't have the capacity to muster a 10k army. Not to mention that i NEVER got beaten by the moors. Only as Byzantium do i loose a couple of provinces before peacing out (at the start of 1066). And guys, how did you want me to take Aragon? Did you forgot my big BB, and the big prestige it requires to claim a single county title?

P.S. i am out of CK, thats for sure, but in eu2, if you guys still allow me to play, i will. I am not the kind of player that backstabs, and i always honor my alliance. But if i know that a major future problem can be dealt easily before turning into a global nuisance, then i will. It is fair play, even if you guys don't like it. I lost many games and i never complained. Did i have fun? No, i am a bad looser. I hate loosing. But i do not cry.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

Whatever the AI did while i wasn't there isnt my fault. Like i said before, i know i shouldnt asked all the titles from Kujy, but i was so pissed with the whole lag, that i simply wanted to mess France :rofl:

Maybe you laugh, we don't. That was not funny at all and now France is totally messed up.

The difference between Italy and France, is that Italy took over all of southern Italy, thus the bad bb. France, all it did was take over a 2 income province.

I took the most lands either by marriage or by a crusade. You will have more than the one claim, don't you?

Well, i know that Kujy didn't have "fun", lets say it. But if my worst fears of spain would emerge, then i wouldnt have "fun" either, playing as France. France in eu2 only wins spain over manpower, nothing else. And manpower is no big deal in the long run. You guys just wanted me to sacrifice my "fun" later on, so that Kujy could enjoy the current game. Now tell me, what would be the fun of playing versus a spain that could muster humongous armies without getting exhausted?

I already told you, you could have fought Muslims in Spain to prevent that.

Oh, Btw, i though that with the current rules, i couldn't conquer Spain, unless my allies/vassals were at war with the moors or if a new crusade is declared. And Cordoba wasn't that strong... Last time i checked they didn't have the capacity to muster a 10k army. Not to mention that i NEVER got beaten by the moors. Only as Byzantium do i loose a couple of provinces before peacing out (at the start of 1066). And guys, how did you want me to take Aragon? Did you forgot my big BB, and the big prestige it requires to claim a single county title?

Read the rules again. There was a crusade, thus you can fight them. It is Granada and it can muster at least 35 000 men. More than France now can. The BB can go down. Very fast to say so. Also, Aragon was dying anyway, you would just have to wait until the Hammadids had annexed them and then fought some Muslims.