The Wars of the Roses

[TheButterflyComposer]

If only this was CK and a vassal like the Duchy of York could attack rather than England. Is the 15th century dukes more a title than an actual sub-realm holder?

In England in this period? Yes, pretty much. Although going without asking permission would be a bit dodgy, if he won he'd get away with it. And if he lost, that would probably mean money troubles/weakened position, which rather removes himself from the board.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

I think everyone is agreed on at least trying to get the french lands back, which means Somerset is correct in trying to harness the Yorkists to go and bleed themselves in trying to do it. Either they all die or they get the land back. Win win.

Yep! Worked before (more or less) so why not again?

If only this was CK and a vassal like the Duchy of York could attack rather than England. Is the 15th century dukes more a title than an actual sub-realm holder?

A little bit different between England and France, at least. I cannot honestly speak on other states at that time because I have not studied them as much. See below.

In England in this period? Yes, pretty much. Although going without asking permission would be a bit dodgy, if he won he'd get away with it. And if he lost, that would probably mean money troubles/weakened position, which rather removes himself from the board.

Here is another chance to add to your sig, TBC. But that is absolutely right as far as we are concerned with this situation.

The Dukes, Earls/Counts, etc. of these two realms were so very different. While it may be easy to play as them (or not) in the game, that was not a thing that an English magnate could do at the time. That is why, at the start of the game (and going back to the original EU game) France has always been separated and England has not. I'm sure I don't need to educate on this point, but the English nobility were rather more controlled by the crown (despite Magna Carta or anything else) after The Conquerer (he rather made that a point!) In France? Not so much at all. You don't get a cohesive "France" until much later. But they found good leaders and thus beat back the 100 Years War in their favor. Eventually.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

that is absolutely right as far as we are concerned with this situation.

That is a dangerous quote to have in my roster.

 

[coz1]

That is a dangerous quote to have in my roster.

You may have it, my friend.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

You may have it, my friend.

Anyone remember 2018!

 

[coz1]

Anyone remember 2018!

I do and well. Anyone remember 2002?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I do and well. Anyone remember 2002?

Um...no.

 

[coz1]

Bath, November 1451​

It was a warm night which did not suit the man in service to the Earl of Warwick as he might have preferred a useful cloak to hide his head, but he plowed on with his usual determination and watched the man he’d kept his eyes to these last many months. A most sad figure who seemed to drink himself into a lethargy each evening in every pub to Bath, even though his wife owned one of the most famous. This night, he did not even seem to care that it was one only some few blocks from The Wolf and Whistle. Quite cavalier, but what did Fulk care? It was not his own wife that might be upset.

Late enough, Fulk still counted the time as early. The man before him would be just well enough into his cups to listen without too much question, but not enough to mishear what needed to be said. Shielded behind a cornering wall, Fulk waited until the figure stumbled out into the street and went so far as to whistle into the dark night. This was...the most opportune moment.

“I say...you there.”

Flinching as if caught with a stolen item, the man turned at first unsure from which direction the voice had come. Appearing from the shadows, Fulk showed a smile to disarm him, “I did not mean to startle you.”

“Then don’t call out to a drunken man at night!”

“I do apologize,” Fulk replied with his most pleasant face, “I did not know.”

“Do I know you?” the man blurted out in frustration.

Fulk replied with some humor, “It is possible. I’ve spent some time to your wife’s pub of late and...Bath is not so large a town.”

“What know you of my wife?!” the man accused in question.

“That she is married to...mayhap unfortunately...a man called Thomas,” Fulk answered, “Is that correct?”

The man began to move away, “My business and hers is none of your concern!”

Fulk stayed where he was and called out, “Is it not? That a servant to a Cardinal...the Cardinal...would hide himself in this backwater. Especially if such a servant would harbor someone much more desired than he...”

The words trailed off but it stopped the man in his tracks. When he turned, his face was suddenly full of worry but he attempted a reply, “You would have me confused with another.”

“Do I?” Fulk responded as he folded his arms, “Your name be Thomas. That I know. You are married to an Elizabeth and have two fine twin children...an Adam and an Alice, I believe. From my queries, you were absent for some many years until you returned not so long past. They tell me that you were off to some official business. What that is, I was not able to say...except that some others have.”

Thomas tried to play as drunk as he nearly was already, “I don’t know your words, sir. I’m just on my way home...”

“Not yet,” Fulk replied with authority, “Especially if you would not like me telling your pretty wife of the who you harbor in her employ. I am certain that she and many others might find that fact quite interesting.”

“Who are you?!” Thomas demanded.

Fulk flashed a grin, “A man paid well to know such things.”

“You know nothing of my fugitive...”

“And also paid well to gain confirmation,” Fulk replied, “Now...if you should like to sit and speak for a moment, I would be pleased to pinch a pint, as they say. Would you say no to another cup?”

Thomas frowned, “I have nothing to say to you.”

“Ah...but I think that you do,” Fulk answered him as he gestured back towards the pub, “Let us sit a spell. Mayhap I have some few things to say to you. And some fine ale. Or...did the Cardinal Beaufort frown on such things?”

“I...” Thomas considered another drink but stood his ground, “...I would be happy to stay right here, sir. Speak your mind, for I have little to say.”

Fulk showed another grin, “See? Already we have moved beyond. From no thing to little. Progress. Now...I am not concerned with you, so you may be settled. I do know that you served the Cardinal Beaufort for some years. Were there at the man’s death even. You know...servants will talk. All of that is quite interesting, especially given some of the questions surrounding that poor moment, but...I am more interested in your...shall we say...ward?”

“My what?” Thomas asked feigning ignorance.

“The boy,” Fulk answered quickly, “Young man, if you will. Goes by the name of Nat. Now he...he is far more interesting to me.”

Thomas blustered, “I know not who you serve but many have tried to find him and they won’t!”

“Yet I have,” Fulk replied, “Wrapped up in a tiny little bow by your words. It is clear that he is something...someone...that you wish to keep hidden. I have an idea of why...but I would truly love your own confirmation.”

“What you think you know, you can take with you,” Thomas answered as he turned away, “Tell my wife, should you please. She won’t believe it. She’s an honest woman married to an honest man.”

Fulk watched him walk away for a moment before calling out, “Would coin then make you speak? Is that why you hide the boy?”

“What mean you?!” Thomas turned back with irritation.

“Please!” Fulk pulled a purse from his bag, “Plenty of pence for a word that you have mayhap been waiting for all this time. Enough to make your pretty wife good in all of her endeavors. My employer does pay well...if you are looking for that day of pay.”

“Now you are to bribe me?” Thomas looked to the coins as he questioned.

Fulk took a step forward as he jangled the purse, “Your other option...there is a rather large force of men soon to pass by this place on their way to the south. Off to France. We’re back to war on the continent, don’t you know? The matter of Bordeaux. That may mean no thing to you, but I may assure that it means a great deal to my master. He should take any and all able bodied men with him. Especially if I should tell him of one here that is most promising.”

“I’m no soldier!”

“Not yet,” Fulk replied easily.

Thomas stumbled a bit as he felt his drink come over him but steadied and tried to answer with strength, “You try to bargain, bribe and threaten. I’m nothing but a servant and I served well until the old man died. I’ve only come home to live out my life with my family. What interest am I?!”

“As I said...” Fulk answered him, “...you mean no thing to me or anyone else but your pretty wife and children. Take that. Live with it even in the safety and security of this place. We care about the boy. Now...will you say?”

“I cannot!” Thomas demanded.

Fulk smiled as he stepped even closer with his purse, “Yet I think that you can. He may remain here with you. I’ve no desire to take him away. We merely need to know.”

“I am sworn to...”

Fulk stopped him, “Secrecy, I am certain. This coin may make that pledge far less harsh. We just need to know his name.”

“Nat,” Thomas offered quickly, “Has always been so.”

“Now you are testing me,” Fulk showed a frown, “My other option is just to kill you. My blade is ready. Is your heart?”

Thomas tried to stand firm, “I truly cannot say!”

“That is...unfortunate,” Fulk frowned even more, “Though I should tell you that when I say I will kill you, you would not be alone. I would have to follow through with your wife and children. It’s rather a packaged deal, old Tom.”

“You would not hurt them!”

Fulk showed a fierce eye, “I would and I will. Their lives need not be forfeit. Give up the name!”

“He is...” Thomas began to say but stopped. It did not take him two seconds before he finished, “...Arthur.”

“And you know of his pedigree?” Fulk stepped closer with menace.

Thomas thought again but finally answered, “He says that he is son to the Duke…the late Lord of Gloucester.”

Fulk stepped even closer with question, “Do you believe him?”

“I don’t know?! He said it. And I believed him,” Thomas finally allowed the spigot to flow, “Thought it might be useful and so we took him in. I’ve lived a poor life but for my service. And I wanted...maybe something more after. After the old man died.”

“And so...here you are,” Fulk smiled as he handed Thomas the purse, “Was that so hard?”

Thomas held it gently, “I think I’ll be damned for my words...and so will he.”

“I told you...good Tom...” Fulk kept his smile, “...we’ve no wish to take him away or anywhere. He remains yours to mold, if you can...and for now. This purse I give to you...it may be one of many. As long and until such time.”

“And what happens then?” Thomas asked with worry.

Fulk offered a nod of the head as he responded, “My master will tell me and then I shall tell you.”

“You will want to speak with him,” Thomas pressed.

“Eventually,” Fulk replied as he backed away, “But not now. Early days and all. You keep him safe...and my master will keep you safe. That is how this will work.”

Thomas held tight to his coin, “I think you to be an evil man. I know not your master...but he may be worse.”

“You have no idea,” Fulk answered with a stern brow, “Keep the boy safe, silent and secure. You will tell no one of your mind on this. Speak your mind…?”

Fulk shook his head with uncertainty as he left the question in the air before briskly walking away.

 

[Midnite Duke]

Behind Door C! Options and more players! The innocents are mere pawns for rooks, bishops and queens. Thank you for the update

 

[Bullfilter]

Struggling a bit to keep up with the frenetic (but welcome) pace! But have caught up again. Please indulge as I recap the previous chapters first.

Westminster, May 1451

“We have had enough of this!” King Henry announced to all in his presence, “Back and forth you go...this one blames the other...on and on...and we may have no peace!”

And they would not shut up, despite the frequent and heavy hints! Digging holes for themselves that may well turns into graves. By the bushel.

There would be no more rapprochement. This was now a duel to the death.

End of Chapter 3​

There will be many deaths before this is done, one assumes.

Ludlow Castle, June 1451

“And we know well that Somerset will counsel no such thing. A pox on this King if he listens to such weak speech.”

“Then let us prepare for the future, sir...” Richard took the Earl’s arm to lead him into the great hall, “...where all things are possible.”

Warwick is building his Kingmaking factory …

Just a note on what's actually going on in the game itself. As we moved into 1451, I had not seen France go any further towards England so I did the switch country thing and had them DoW over Bordeaux as happened historically. I'm likely not doing France any favors because it was then I realized they were already at war with Burgundy and in short order, some others ganged up and jumped in. As the player (back with England) I am not taking advantage of this as I might if I were trying to win. That said, I do take some action which will come up in due time.

Interesting. The occasional map could be of interest, when strategy is being discussed in high councils, but not if you think it would be immersion-breaking, of course.

Westminster, September 1451

The King turned to them both, “Our life is costly. And all of those that have come before. Would that I had stayed from whence I came and not this. You will both hear my answer when I do find it!”

This Henry seems more assertive than the OTL version by popular perception, but he could still find the horns of a dilemma to be an uncomfortable seat!

Bath, November 1451

“Now you are testing me,” Fulk showed a frown, “My other option is just to kill you. My blade is ready. Is your heart?”

And the deceptive patience and bonhomie suddenly fall away. A cold hearted minion to be sure.

“Though I should tell you that when I say I will kill you, you would not be alone. I would have to follow through with your wife and children. It’s rather a packaged deal, old Tom.”

Nasty - Fulk is not to be denied.

“He says that he is son to the Duke…the late Lord of Gloucester.”

Arthur’s days of precarious safety are definitely numbered. But will he be a useful pawn or an inconvenient truth that needs to be suppressed - permanently?

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Behind Door C! Options and more players! The innocents are mere pawns for rooks, bishops and queens. Thank you for the update

I admit that I'm struggling a bit to merge the purely fictional characters with the RL ones included, but the above is certain. And likely those fictional ones I've included may not have the outlook that the real ones at least think they have.

Struggling a bit to keep up with the frenetic (but welcome) pace! But have caught up again. Please indulge as I recap the previous chapters first.


And they would not shut up, despite the frequent and heavy hints! Digging holes for themselves that may well turns into graves. By the bushel.

There will be many deaths before this is done, one assumes.

On that, there is no doubt!

Warwick is building his Kingmaking factory …

Slowly but indeed.

Interesting. The occasional map could be of interest, when strategy is being discussed in high councils, but not if you think it would be immersion-breaking, of course.

A well placed comment and I will try to do so when it may be appropriate. As mentioned, I'm burying the gameplay very heavily under the narrative but I may have something soon enough to give you a good picture of the situation.

This Henry seems more assertive than the OTL version by popular perception, but he could still find the horns of a dilemma to be an uncomfortable seat!

Yes he is and yes, it could be.

And the deceptive patience and bonhomie suddenly fall away. A cold hearted minion to be sure.

Nasty - Fulk is not to be denied.

Arthur’s days of precarious safety are definitely numbered. But will he be a useful pawn or an inconvenient truth that needs to be suppressed - permanently?

I had some fun with that scene. While all of these people would gladly slit your throat as soon as look at you, I needed (or wanted) a real nasty git to write for and Fulk fits that mold nicely.


To all - When I write, I tend to churn out quite a bit of output rather quickly. That is a good thing but I know makes it difficult to keep up. I will try to be mindful of that as I release updates. I have another ready but may save it for the day after tomorrow to give some chance to catch up. On a side note, I have started to release the winners in our Yearly AAR contest so head over to the General Discussion area to see the results. On a personal note, thank you very much for those that voted for both this and my Creek AAR. It is very much appreciated.

And most certainly thank you all for following, reading and giving comment here!!

 

[Bullfilter]

When I write, I tend to churn out quite a bit of output rather quickly. That is a good thing

Yes it is!

but I know makes it difficult to keep up.

The only thing to ‘worry’ (not really) about for you is whether you want to allow a little time for contemporaneous comments on each episode or would rather get them out there when they are ready and people will catch up and comment in their own time. Both are entirely valid approaches, of course.

I get around it by cycling through four AAR updates, so there’s always an enforced delay in each one! But that way lies madness, and a few of them should conclude at some point this year, to allow more time for reading other AARs - like this fine work.

 

[coz1]

I get around it by cycling through four AAR updates, so there’s always an enforced delay in each one! But that way lies madness...

That's it, BWB! I'm starting 4 more AARs tomorrow. That ought to do the trick.

 

[coz1]

Dorset, December 1451​

The crunch of snow beneath their coursers was a constant and dulled their mind as they trudged on. To the next town they went, but their speech remained the same. Why? There were only so many words to say and Richard was unsure why he was even making this progress, “He is far too old to command such a thing, and he is not even that promising of a commander.”

“My father has held off the Percys for some time, my Lord,” Warwick answered back as he held to the saddle pommel.

Richard of York scoffed, “Upstarts and more. Hardly better than a Scot. And I say again, his age is prohibitive and it should be Talbot that does such a thing.”

“Hardly differed in score,” the Earl replied, “And he has fought his battles.”

“Minor,” Richard suggested as he looked ahead to an inviting inn, “His old bones will creak as even mine do at the now. I come to give him a fare the well and a bon chance, but it is too poor that His Grace has granted this charge to your father. This is not some unruly northerner that he is to fight. This is the soldier given charge by the French King. I recall your father from his last campaign, and he was far more happy to the rear than he was to the front.”

Warwick grinned, “Do not allow your esteem of the Nevilles to fall too far and short, my Lord.”

“It is madness!” York pronounced as his horse moved into the small hamlet and near the only inn to be seen, “There was great chance to be taken by Lord Talbot. Caux held and on to Rouen. Normandy back to our hands. And what do we do? What does this King do? Cease his forward advance. Our advance. It should be me going to Bordeaux. I would not let it fall.”

“I understand that I was to lead,” Warwick replied in kind, “Another attempt by the Lord of Somerset to place me in the line of the enemy. It is of a piece.”

Richard allowed his courser to come to a slow stop and made shift to dismount, “There you are not wrong, my young nephew. You have placed your fortune at my stake. I am to be out and if you so follow, so you should be as well. The King cares not, and those around him even less.”

“Then I must double my efforts,” Warwick answered as he followed the Duke’s action and looked around the small town.

The Duke of York handed his reins to a servant and offered no smile, “Effort this and these. This train of carts moves onward. For your Lord father, I suppose. Join me to the place when you are done.”

The Earl barked out his orders and moved swiftly to accompany the Duke into some warm confines, such as they were. He found Richard already to a table and sat with alacrity, “I am not certain why you question this move, my Lord. It would seem exactly what we might need at the now. The French King is bested on so many fronts. Talbot does take Caux. Is it not best that we move out of Aquitaine?”

“To what end?” York did not look up from the poor trencher placed before him, “Burgundy has already run most of the north, as we suspected. Good on them, but it brings us no glory. Not when we might have found Normandy back to our hands. We should expand out of that from the south? The time for that was many moons ago, my young Lord. Patience is wasted as this King frets.”

Warwick too looked disappointed by the fare placed before him, “The order is given. It is a chance.”

“Chance was when we had right and the hearing,” Richard looked to his companion with a firm eye, “Coin wasted to little effect. We, you and I, are right out. What more should I give when I am not even desired for this excursion? Why should you? Why your father?”

The Earl offered a slim nod in agreement, “Mayhap you are right. He is to the slaughter as may be wished.”

“And you would not be concerned with that?!” York showed a wide eye, “To send your Lord father into the lion’s den...allow him to show his faith by his death?! I know him. Salisbury is exceptional and he may lead...but he is not a true martial leader of men. This is war and you are far superior in that regard.”

“I am pleased that you recognize his worth,” Warwick commented.

Richard kept a firm gaze, “He should as well and why he should not accompany this force to Aquitaine! Nor you!”

“I hold no voice,” Warwick answered, “What am I to do? The King demanded his presence...gave him his charge. He is to Bordeaux with the train that we deliver to him.”

“Then he is a fool,” York played tepidly with his trencher, “And you more fool that you do not tell him to renounce this move and his charge. He is not like to win, no matter the state of play, and he will be a poor Neville sacrifice. As we have seen far too often.”

“Sometimes, my Lord...” Warwick attempted to be diplomatic, “...I fear that your hopes and dreams play havoc with your mind.”

The Duke of York slammed his knife down with firmness and looked to his protege, “You would question me? Question what I do here?”

“Nay, my Lord!” Warwick answered quickly.

Richard of York waved his hand, “Then why do you not see this army of men? Wagons full of supplies? All of the things required to best a foe and especially when they are down and hurting?”

“Because you are not in charge of them,” the Earl replied with an eye just as firm.

“You think it personal!” the Duke glared with certainty.

Warwick hesitated but finally answered, “I must, my Lord. Few who see it would think little else.”

The Duke of York found a slim smile, “You would not know. Could not. You may go back many years and my family...mine...have been forced to this abjection. Right out, as we are, when we should be right in. I’ve no desire for the throne, despite what people may say, but I do have desire for this kingdom and that man that rules over it. Cousin he may be, but he is wanted by so many cruel creatures. A whore of a wife...and I have met her...and more his cruel counsel...”

“My Lord,” Warwick was loathe to interrupt but found need, “This is all well known. By myself, at the least. Yet you hold too tightly to your worth as they see it.”

Richard kept his rare smile, “They like it not because I am Plantagenet. A Lord unlike any other. I am the threat. For their abuse...for their ill use of funds...for any small thing they might wish to place upon me. I would get used to that, were I you, for you are as nearly as powerful as I. Your coin speaks far louder than your words.”

“So I shall use it!” Warwick showed certainty.

The Duke dropped his smile, “And they will take it and use you, sir. As they desire to do with your Lord father.”

“I cannot convince him of anything,” the Earl replied.

Richard held again to his knife and pointed it to Warwick to make his point, “You must! Your Lord father cannot...and should not...lead this chevauchee! Whatever the aim and mayhap to the kingdom’s detriment! In our long term...it is not to our betterment. It is only a chance to humble and we should lose if we allow it!”

“And who might we be?” Warwick asked in return.

The Duke moved back to his poor trencher and ate a few bites before giving reply, “You are clever, nephew. I should think you able to figure that out in good time. Whom do you serve?”

“The kingdom...my house...” Warwick answered quickly, “...myself.”

Richard of York looked up from his disappointing meal with a quizzical eye, “In what order?”

 

[Bullfilter]

“Sometimes, my Lord...” Warwick attempted to be diplomatic, “...I fear that your hopes and dreams play havoc with your mind.”

The Duke of York slammed his knife down with firmness and looked to his protege, “You would question me? Question what I do here?”

Speaks truth to power and flexing his influence.

“You are clever, nephew. I should think you able to figure that out in good time. Whom do you serve?”

“The kingdom...my house...” Warwick answered quickly, “...myself.”

Richard of York looked up from his disappointing meal with a quizzical eye, “In what order?”

Good questions. To which direct answers are unlikely. And even if answered in words, still unclear until deeds speak.

 

[Midnite Duke]

For York, any day that does not end with him on the throne is a wasted day. York wants to rewrite the succession laws and history. Thank you for the update.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Speaks truth to power and flexing his influence.

Good questions. To which direct answers are unlikely. And even if answered in words, still unclear until deeds speak.

I am slowly building Warwick as a character as he is certainly fascinating and will surely be influential to whatever story I end up with here. Unless I decide to kill him off early...but why would I waste such a valuable resource?

For York, any day that does not end with him on the throne is a wasted day. York wants to rewrite the succession laws and history. Thank you for the update.

I don't think that is entirely incorrect, but York does not think or at the least realize that just yet. That may well change in good time.


To all - Note the first, a bit on where we stand in-game. With @Bullfilter's suggestion, I will add a screenshot coming up soon but for now suffice to say France is having quite the time of it. Burgundy is rampaging and joined by many others in taking land. From the above narrative, you can suss out that I (and King Henry) finally decided to send a force down to Bordeaux after Caux was taken. We'll see how that works out when the time comes and I'll speak more to it at that time. At the moment, I am trying to deftly (or perhaps not) weave RL with this alternate history. There are a lot of moving parts so I hope it works.

Note the second, thank you very much once again to those that voted for this work in the Yayas and helped bring it to a 3rd place finish in the Narrative AAR of 2021 category. It is very much appreciated! I value you all as readers and commenters and I could not be more thankful for your support of my efforts! For 20 years I have been given benefit by some excellent and astute members of this forum, most specifically here in AARland (and I have a little something special planned for the actual anniversary as it is coming up soon.) As I often said in my Wessex works, I could not do this without your assistance and as I say every time, thank you for your reading and giving comment despite my sometimes quick updating pace. Your efforts sustain my efforts, and while I may not be as good at reciprocating as I used to be, I am still very much influenced and appreciative of what you all do here as well! Just...Thank You!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Fb-fb:


I am slowly building Warwick as a character as he is certainly fascinating and will surely be influential to whatever story I end up with here. Unless I decide to kill him off early...but why would I waste such a valuable resource?


I don't think that is entirely incorrect, but York does not think or at the least realize that just yet. That may well change in good time.


To all - Note the first, a bit on where we stand in-game. With @Bullfilter's suggestion, I will add a screenshot coming up soon but for now suffice to say France is having quite the time of it. Burgundy is rampaging and joined by many others in taking land. From the above narrative, you can suss out that I (and King Henry) finally decided to send a force down to Bordeaux after Caux was taken. We'll see how that works out when the time comes and I'll speak more to it at that time. At the moment, I am trying to deftly (or perhaps not) weave RL with this alternate history. There are a lot of moving parts so I hope it works.

Note the second, thank you very much once again to those that voted for this work in the Yayas and helped bring it to a 3rd place finish in the Narrative AAR of 2021 category. It is very much appreciated! I value you all as readers and commenters and I could not be more thankful for your support of my efforts! For 20 years I have been given benefit by some excellent and astute members of this forum, most specifically here in AARland (and I have a little something special planned for the actual anniversary as it is coming up soon.) As I often said in my Wessex works, I could not do this without your assistance and as I say every time, thank you for your reading and giving comment despite my sometimes quick updating pace. Your efforts sustain my efforts, and while I may not be as good at reciprocating as I used to be, I am still very much influenced and appreciative of what you all do here as well! Just...Thank You!

If Burgundy is doing...Well, what burgundy actually did in OTL, England should certainly take the oppurnity to sack Paris and fet their lands in normnady and aquitaine back. Not like they can stop you.

 

[coz1]

If Burgundy is doing...Well, what burgundy actually did in OTL, England should certainly take the oppurnity to sack Paris and fet their lands in normnady and aquitaine back. Not like they can stop you.

Were I playing like I might normally, that is entirely correct. The opening is there. But I'm trying to role play so I am holding England back to try and reproduce similar results from OTL. If England is successful on the continent, there is far less reason or ability for York to press the crown. HIstorically, the loss of Normandy and Aquitaine were prime complaints against Henry's court party and the King himself. I've aready purposefully lost Normandy in the game but for now I am holding on to what is left of Aquitaine in Bordeaux.

Back tomorrow with another update so time left to comment on the previous ones.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Were I playing like I might normally, that is entirely correct. The opening is there. But I'm trying to role play so I am holding England back to try and reproduce similar results from OTL. If England is successful on the continent, there is far less reason or ability for York to press the crown. HIstorically, the loss of Normandy and Aquitaine were prime complaints against Henry's court party and the King himself. I've aready purposefully lost Normandy in the game but for now I am holding on to what is left of Aquitaine in Bordeaux.

Back tomorrow with another update so time left to comment on the previous ones.

At this point, the English nobles would be entirely correct to complain. France is wide open for looting and pillaging, and they aren't joining in!