The Wars of the Roses

[HistoryDude]

Well, it appears as if there are still some people who are on the fence.

I wonder what would happen if the King dies soon? A fight for the regency, or would York and his friends revolt immediately?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I think this might actually end up worse than the actual war of the Roses situation, which is impressive, to be honest.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Narrator: he did not live to serve.

With a name like Black William, how could he?

Well, it appears as if there are still some people who are on the fence.

I wonder what would happen if the King dies soon? A fight for the regency, or would York and his friends revolt immediately?

Possibly on the fence, but I'd rather say waiting to see which way the wind blows.

That is a good question. Both in this time line and in RL, there was question to the Prince's paternity. In RL, it was never tested because Henry lived either as King or in captivity. In this timeline, especially right now with the Prince still so young, I'd think we'd see outright revolt. But it really comes down to who would do the revolting and who would stand for the Queen and Prince? Events are coming that will alter that situation. Stay tuned.

I think this might actually end up worse than the actual war of the Roses situation, which is impressive, to be honest.

Hmm, I don't know about worse. So far not so different and I've not spoken of it much, but with Lord Talbot still alive he would swing things terribly for the King. But he's still in France protecting what remains which is different than RL. A small difference, but he would be a game changer depending on what side he took. Historically he stood with King Henry but he died before things really took off.


To all - Just about done writing the chapter. Thought I had it finished but then decided on one more scene so I had to switch a few things around. At any rate, another update follows. Give me a moment to post and it will be there. As always, thank you all for following and giving comment. It's good to be back writing so I am thankful to still have readers!

 

[coz1]

Sandal Castle, April 1455​

Duchess Cecily looked out of the tower window towards the town of Wakefield. The River Calder showed a heavy rise after recent rains and she herself felt depressed. It was so gloomy at this place. And she missed her children. When her husband entered the chamber, she said little until he pressed, “What troubles you, wife?”

She did not turn in her answer as she kept her gaze to the river, “Actions flow apace, husband. And yet all I’d wish would be back to Ludlow. Edward and Edmund continue to grow but without our guidance. And little George and young Richard...they would require a mother.”

“It is all mothers, is that it?” Richard replied as he moved to pour his wife a goblet of wine, “Is that what I must contend with each and every day?”

Cecily answered with a sadness, “You would know my answer without asking.”

“Yes...I would,” Richard offered as he moved to her and handed her the drink, “And I am not so hard as that. I too miss the children.”

“Then why are we here?” she asked as she finally turned to him.

Richard of York tried to show a kind eye, “My Lady...we are at a time of stress and trouble. We needs must find men of affinity and loyalty. A showing to Yorkshire is required if we are to recruit in the north. You need not my words to tell you that.”

“My love...” she brushed at his cheek, “...I would sooner drown in that river than answer to that woman yet...what is our cost? The education of our children? Their futures...suspect? Your own life? Have you considered this fully?”

“You would ask that of me?” Richard questioned with some pain to his face, “Your advice has always been paramount to my mind and it has always preached resolve and a showing of strength. I could do no other. Not for us...or our children...our pedigree and place.”

Cecily offered a deep sigh before giving answer, “I just...may it not be better if we were just country folk and lived a life pastoral? Our good family within ourselves and forgetting all this other?”

“You know well that you would not be fully happy with that,” he answered with a slight grin, “The only person more interested in our pursuits than me would be you, my sweet Lady. And I count on that. At every step. From our time to Normandy...our forced separation when I was to Ireland…our efforts at family...our trials at every moment...you are my strength, dear wife.”

The Duchess narrowed her brow as she gave reply, “Then do not go by half measures, my Lord. We speak of means to an end. What is the end? At what moment can we say that we are done? Be clear in your pursuit, husband. And once achieved, let us be done with the other.”

“You know my goal,” Richard responded as he moved to pour his own wine, “It is Somerset and no other.”

“Not her?” she questioned, “Not the child?”

The Duke poured as he answered, “You sound as if your nephew.”

“You cannot believe it, whether the rest of the realm wishes to question or not. The King was feeble...unable...so who is the heir? It is not named you, I assure you. And if you do believe it, you will never be King.”

Richard turned quickly, “We should not speak on such things.”

“Don’t be foolish, husband!” Cecily admonished as she moved to him, “You are much too smart for such things. What have you been doing all these years if not to protect your interests...our interests?! You have said yourself...Henry is not to his right mind. And that...thing...is not his child! There can be no way that it is. Not from that whore! You speak to me that we are here to recruit the north. Fair. Yet do not forget that we are here also to show who we are! What we are! If I am to suffer this climate, then at the least, let us be true to our cause!”

The Duke showed a pained face, “What is it that you think that I have been doing?!”

“I love my brother,” Cecily countered, “Yet he could be called a soft man in many ways. A peaceful man. His advice is mostly sound. But again, husband...half measures.”

“You would have me declare?!” Richard asked with some shock.

She softened as she stood taller to kiss at his face, “I need not tell you what to do, my Lord. You are my husband and I will follow no matter. Yet make it count. Please.”

“I would always make you happy,” he answered as he returned her kiss.

Cecily smiled as she pulled away, “Good. Now do so with my nephew. I saw that he was approaching and will be to you soon.”

They did not have long to wait as the knock on the chamber door announced the Earl of Warwick, “Dear uncle...and my Lady! A hard ride but worth it!”

“Speak to him good news,” Cecily suggested as she gave him a kiss in greeting before leaving them alone.

“Of course I would,” Warwick answered with a bow and then turned to the Duke, “Yet...”

Richard scowled, “You would be kind to my wife but not to me, my Lord?”

“I may only give you the truth, uncle,” Warwick replied as he set aside his coat, “All is not well.”

“That is to be expected,” Richard shifted to pour his nephew a drink, “What is it now?”

The younger Neville accepted his wine with a nod, “It is the same, my Lord. The Queen and Somerset. She has rallied her parties to her side...and more.”

“More?” Richard questioned.

Warwick moved to sit, “Indeed. Bergavenny to Wales. Also Herbert, I am told.”

“I was to understand he was our man,” the Duke of York stood over him, “Has this changed again?”

Warwick showed a smile, “I think we may count upon him...for this is how I know such. It is said to me that Somerset once again speaks ill of you. To be expected, of course. But the King shows an ear to his speech and while manifestly false, the man of Beaufort suggests to His Grace that you are desiring to depose the King and that Somerset is plotting your own destruction.”

“And she also holds his ear,” Richard sighed.

The Earl gave nod, “Indeed so, my Lord. She has recommended that the King hold a secret conference to Westminster. Yet only with those that hold to the Lancastrian affinity. A sure failure for yourself as none of them are sympathetic to your cause and they are entirely to theirs.”

Richard of York shook his head with disdain, “What of Buckingham? The same spiritless man?”

“You may assume, sir,” Warwick answered readily, “Shows himself as much to the Queen as he does to His Grace.”

The Duke found a chair opposite the Earl and sat heavily, “Have you spoken to your father on this?”

“I have,” came the reply.

Richard leaned forward, “And?!”

“He remains to Middleham, my Lord,” Warwick answered, “And sees his levies mustered.”

The Duke of York arched a brow, “So he is prepared to...show his force? To fight if needs must?”

“My Lord...” Warwick stood and showed a brief bow, “...for over a year, we attempted to right this state. He...you...myself...all in the stated goal of protecting His Grace the King. We remain on that same voyage, do we not? I know that I am young, yet I also know what you have tried to accomplish for all of these years. Now is not the time to back down. My father tells me that you hold a goal. He and I both are with you.”

Richard of York also stood and moved to the window to look out over the river. He remained silent for a time before giving answer, “What I ask is no easy task. It requires patience...which I do not hold to very well. Your good father is the voice of reason and I count upon it. Yet Somerset is pernicious...evil, in fact. His words are poison and his whore gives them weight. I do not wish to declare against the King. I cannot! Yet I am unloved and my words do not carry as far so force is required.”

“You need not explain it to me, my Lord,” Warwick suggested.

“Yet I do,” Richard turned to him with a firm eye, “It is a very fine path that we traverse. Indeed call up your reserves to the Scots border...to Wales. Have your father do the same. I will do also. We will present a force that cannot be ignored. But I wish not to fight! I do love my cousin...”

Warwick moved to him, “My Lord...have we not been here before? I do know my history.”

The Duke stood taller, “And so you would do well to hear my instruction. My mood may have changed but my goal has not. We are honorable men and if you know your history, you would know how things may go when a force goes against the crown. Any crown. I’ve no desire to find my head upon a spike, yet I do not wish that either for my cousin. It is good governance, sir. THAT is our goal! No other!”

“Your words speak true, uncle,” Warwick replied, “Yet they will not be heard by these that throw in against you. They care not for the King. Only their own worth. There is only one thing that will cause them to open an eye and see what is true. Armed force. Strength.”

Richard answered strongly, “Which I will offer them!”

“I wish not to offend you, uncle...” the Earl replied with an earnest eye, “...yet you must be prepared to use such. At every step. I know that you do not act on vanity, but rather honor. Your honor is at stake in this. I will follow you into hell, my Lord, for I do know that our cause is true. As does my father. As do many others. Yet the time for more discussion is over. As long as Somerset remains, we will always be in this same spot. Out and not in. I know that is not what you want. And so...you must prove it.”

The Duke downed his drink and looked back to the river, “How many think that I have not planned for this? I may assure you, sir, that I am not weak. I desire peace, yet I am prepared. From the north to the west...those in Kent still...from all over. Whatever this conference is that Somerset has planned, he will hear our voice. We will make it so. The King will hear our voice and it is one that he may not deny.”

“Then I will continue to recruit,” Warwick answered readily, “We will be ready.”

“Do so,” Richard responded as he kept his gaze to the river, “And send word to the crown. Let them...him...know what we are doing and profess our loyalty.”

Warwick questioned, “I do not think that he will care, my Lord.”

“Then why should I?” Richard of York turned in his reply.

 

[HistoryDude]

The Yorkists are preparing and have realized that there is to be a war.

Will the profession of loyalty do anything to mask the Yorkist intentions?

 

[El Pip]

Coz has returned and his brush with Covid has not slowed down his ferocious pace, so I have much to catch up on.

The Queen and her hangers-on are doing an excellent Bourbon impression having seemingly learnt nothing but forgotten nothing, they are incredibly confident for people who's position is so incredibly precarious.

On the other side it is sad to Cecily doing a Lady Macbeth, though perhaps she is just being more realistic about things. The French traitor-queen is deranged enough she is not going to give up and the King is seemingly reduced to an empty vessel, so any attempt at talking or even threatening is not going to work. While I do believe that York is sincere in just wanting good governance (even if his wife , Warwick and others are not) that is not actually on offer so he must go big or go home. And he would never be happy going home.

In any event onto St Albans, which is just down the road from the current Pip Mansions and thus I have an extra reason to be interested in.

Narrator: he did not live to serve.

In fairness Black William never said who he lived to serve and Buckingham was not bright enough to ask.

 

[Bullfilter]

I am still suffering from some post-Covid crud but at the least, it has allowed me to stay home and do some writing.

Yuk! Silver linings though, I suppose.

Look you there to the Duke of Somerset.”

“He is released,” she answered, “Hale and hearty and willing to serve as always.

Serving as a disease vector for vanity and folly, as usual.

William stood tall with exclamation, “You wish to know if I am honorable...”

“I know that you are not,” Margaret cut him off

Ouch!

“You may have been mislead,” Sir William looked to the Duke, “After all...you have been away for some time. Unfortunate, surely. Yet the Lord of York wishes no thing but the betterment of the King. As he has said so many times over. If you wish to forgo calamity, you would believe him.”

Somerset is always misled - by himself, which is the most convincing and dangerous source of ill advice. Somerset the Unready!

He grasped her hand with a truth to his mind, “I would never betray my home.”

“Then do not betray her!” Somerset admonished.

Black William smiled as he looked to them both, “I live to serve.”

In fairness Black William never said who he lived to serve and Buckingham was not bright enough to ask.

Yes, my reaction too. Home is where the heart is and one’s own interests will be served first.

And now the fuse burns perilously close to the powder keg …

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

The Yorkists are preparing and have realized that there is to be a war.

Will the profession of loyalty do anything to mask the Yorkist intentions?

To the mind of Somerset there is nothing to mask. York's intent is surely the worst.

Coz has returned and his brush with Covid has not slowed down his ferocious pace, so I have much to catch up on.

The Queen and her hangers-on are doing an excellent Bourbon impression having seemingly learnt nothing but forgotten nothing, they are incredibly confident for people who's position is so incredibly precarious.

It is one of the more fascinating aspects of this entire ordeal. And with both sides, really. The minute one side takes power, there is an assumption that they will stay there. Not really wishing to speak too much currently on politics of the US, I can at least say that it is not unlike what is seen here between the two sides of the spectrum. It is a hubris born of over-reaching.

On the other side it is sad to Cecily doing a Lady Macbeth, though perhaps she is just being more realistic about things. The French traitor-queen is deranged enough she is not going to give up and the King is seemingly reduced to an empty vessel, so any attempt at talking or even threatening is not going to work. While I do believe that York is sincere in just wanting good governance (even if his wife , Warwick and others are not) that is not actually on offer so he must go big or go home. And he would never be happy going home.

Go big or go home. It is overused in popular discourse, I think (especially now because of the song) but the truth is in there. York really has no choice. I must admit I was not trying for a Lady Macbeth moment there with Cecily, but it is a fair comp. She sees the perilous journey ahead, so if they are to travel it she wants to make sure it is a success. Nothing less is acceptable. It has been said before by others, but she is as much interested in this as is Richard. I write Cecily as a very prideful woman...in all the ways that may be understood.

In any event onto St Albans, which is just down the road from the current Pip Mansions and thus I have an extra reason to be interested in.

As such, I hope I do it well when the time comes. Keep me honest if needs must.

In fairness Black William never said who he lived to serve and Buckingham was not bright enough to ask.

No he did not. I included him if for no other reason, it's a great name! But he will also play further into this before we are done.

Yuk! Silver linings though, I suppose.

I'm well on the mend though I do have a lingering crud in the sinuses. Can't shake it but it won't stop me.

Serving as a disease vector for vanity and folly, as usual.

Ouch!

Somerset is always misled - by himself, which is the most convincing and dangerous source of ill advice. Somerset the Unready!

I've tried to give Somerset some depth as character, but by this point he just is who he is. His motivations are clear to any that looks.

Yes, my reaction too. Home is where the heart is and one’s own interests will be served first.

And now the fuse burns perilously close to the powder keg …

And ready to burn.


To all - So the turkey has been eaten, punkin pie baked and devoured, and my famous squash casserole was once again a success. To be sure, denizens of AARland, your man Coz is incredibly thankful for so many things. I've spent the last ten days taking care of my sister's bulldog Angel (whom I call Da Baby) while she and her new husband were on honeymoon. And my Max and Da Baby are lovers. It is a May December romance to be sure (he's 14 and she is not yet 2) but it works. To wit...

Play time tires them both out and they do one hell of a job to warm up a bed on a cold night. Yet my sis is back home and Max and I are returned to our normal routine. So...let's keep this train going and present the next update.

As always, thank you all for reading and giving comment. And allow me to plug the just begun AARland Year-end AwAARds for 2022! One more time as suggestion...you need not vote for my work, but please do vote! Every writAAR will thank you!

 

[coz1]

Westminster, May 1455​

The meeting was unusual in many ways. At the first, it was held in Henry’s private rooms rather than the normal Council chamber. Secondly, Henry was even less interested than he might have been prior. He was still ill, or at the least still weak in his recovery. Finally, it was smaller than usual owing to the space available. The Lord Chancellor Archbishop Bourchier of Canterbury tried to keep a peace for the sake of the King, but the Duke of Somerset was speaking nonstop and loudly, “...and he means to put you aside, Your Grace, for there can be no other reason to build such a large force!”

“As you well know, my Lord...” the Duke of Buckingham continued to try and play the voice of reason, “...the Lord of York has been no thing but responsible in his efforts to keep the peace. Whether that be before when such has happened, he was able to consider His Grace and bend the knee when required, or when as Lord Protector he did govern in the name of the King with all good effort...as His Grace has said.”

Somerset was uninterested in this argument, “We have been round and round on this, my Lord of Buckingham! And I do not mind suggesting that you hold a womanly demeanor in this entire affair! Too weak and more!”

“How dare you?!” Buckingham stepped forward but the Lord Chancellor stood between them.

“My Lords...let us consider the Grace of God as much as we do His Grace the King! Slanderous words will not assist and is a sin! Recall also that I was there when York did bend his knee...”

“He is your kin, sir!” Somerset exclaimed.

“By law...” the weak voice of the King answered and all stopped to look at him. Henry turned in his seat with a slim smile, “The Archbishop is related by law, my Lords. Yet his allegiance is to the crown and God Almighty. Let us remember that.”

“Of course, Your Grace,” Somerset showed a bow and a kinder look to the Archbishop, “And I do apologize if I offend.”

“You offend me not, my Lord,” Bourchier replied but pointed to the other Duke, “Yet our Lord of Buckingham may feel likewise troubled by your words.”

For his part, Buckingham said not a thing and looked once more to the King. Henry noticed his gaze and tried to answer again, “My cousin...he is...out of sorts.”

“As he so often seems,” Somerset suggested.

Henry flashed a firm eye to the Duke, “And you, my Lord...are so often the stated cause of his dis-ease.”

“It was not my part that placed you to to a prison, Your Grace,” Somerset once again pleaded his case, “And not only yourself, but the Queen and your son the Prince. Why ever for would York do such a thing if not to have unfettered control of the government and crown?”

The Earl of Wiltshire as Lord Treasurer spoke up from behind the Duke, “And I might add, Your Grace...it is not York’s dis-ease, as you call it, but it is his madness. The same that he would accuse of you.”

“Exactly so,” Somerset followed.

Buckingham sighed before giving reply, “You both remain pained at being put out but your worth and worry pale in comparison with that of the King. They matter not and his are all important. All we do here is consider a final reckoning so that all will finally be well. For His Grace...and the realm.”

“I believe that is...precisely so,” King Henry agreed with a weak voice and then turned to Somerset, “Do you not think?”

The Beaufort Duke showed him a bow, “I would not disagree with you, Your Grace. I merely wish to hold the Lord of York responsible for his actions. I suggest this great council to put to rest any and all rancor with the main business to be provision to your full safety against all enemies. You and your son.”

“Yet...” Henry held up a slight finger, “...our cousin is not our enemy. Nor are we his. It...is you...that may not find a peace.”

“Your Grace?” Somerset held up both his hands in protest, “I have been away for all this time! Not available to give you counsel...nor to care for my family! How many times has the Duke called for my head...and may well have had it had you...not returned to us so well?”

The Duke of Buckingham sounded out, “And yet immediately upon your release, my Lord...you call for blood!”

“I call for blood?” Somerset questioned with wounded voice, “I am the one that has raised thousands in their name, sir?! I am the one that calls great magnates to them for the sole purpose of challenging this King?! Here am I. Yet where is York?!”

Wiltshire followed him, “And what does York do? Thousands appear to rally for his cause, my Lords...Your Grace. Whatever purpose could it be but to usurp your power...your place?”

“Your Grace...” Somerset put it plainly, “...the Lord of York means to seize your throne! That is his full and final goal!”

Henry shook his head, “We do not...believe that. And knowing our cousin of York...he will have sent word declaring his faith.”

The Duke of Somerset looked briefly to Wiltshire before turning back to the King, “None is forthcoming, Your Grace.”

“He has been invited to this great council, has he not, my Lord?” Buckingham questioned.

Somerset halted at first before giving reply, “No words go to him nor come from him. Not after his actions have become clear.”

“Well...there you have it,” the Archbishop considered, “It is surely a matter of misunderstanding. Yet again, Your Grace. Too much left unsaid and mayhap grievances unheard?”

The King showed a resolve as he looked sadly out the window of his chamber, “We have heard...from too many. Too many times. Yet I do know my cousin...and more. Have him appear. Salisbury and his son also. Invite them to join and present themselves before the council...and ourself. And now I tire of this bickering and needs must find a rest. Go with God, my Lords, and see this...done well.”

Both Buckingham and the Archbishop gave bow before leaving and Somerset did likewise with Wiltshire. The elder Duke and Lord Chancellor had no words to say in the after leaving Edmund Beaufort to speak to his man, “Burn the letter. Leave no trace. I’ll not have considered kind words ruin what may be accomplished.”

“Of course, my Lord. It is already done,” Wiltshire gave nod, “Yet the King remains...beholden it would seem...to his cousin.”

“The King remains...the King,” Somerset looked back to the now closed chamber door, “Yet we hold to something York does not have. The Queen and the Prince.”

Wiltshire gave another nod, “I assume that you will speak with her?”

“Presently, sir,” The Duke looked to him with a slight smile, “Go and do and I will report to you what our actions will be.”

As the Earl showed a bow, Edmund Beaufort made the short walk to the Queen’s chambers. Passing quickly by Queen Margaret’s chevalier servant Pierre de Brézé, the two were soon left alone. She stood looking beautiful as she gazed out over the grounds from her window and Somerset bent his head in respect, “I believe the two one and the same, Your Grace.”

“Still unwilling to listen?” Margaret asked without turning.

He suggested, “Still holding to a familial bond, my Lady. Your husband cannot understand that his cousin means him harm.”

“It is ever the challenge,” Margaret finally shifted and moved to the Duke, “Yet what are his words?”

“The same,” Somerset answered, “Hoping always for reconciliation. A kindness.”

Margaret turned back to the window, “He is too caring by half. My husband...the priest! Will he ever learn?”

“I believe not from me, my Lady,” Edmund suggested, “I am red-faced in my protestations, but he is all too willing to listen to Buckingham...Bourchier. Any other that would tell him that York is kind and honest and true.”

She turned back to him with a harsh eye, “Yet we know the better.”

“Indeed so, Your Grace,” Somerset replied.

“Yet he takes to the meet...the great council suggested?” she asked.

Somerset gave nod, “He does...and wishes for York and his to show themselves.”

“And then, so they shall,” Margaret answered, “Call it for Westminster. Have York bring his army to this place and see how that is considered.”

The Duke of Somerset tried to agree, “Indeed so...yet...should York bring his army to here. His might. I fear that we could not stop what he and they would wish to do.”

They were interrupted when a wet nurse entered with the Prince of Wales, “Your Grace...it is his time of feeding.”

“Of course,” the Queen answered as she quickly lowered her dress to expose her breast and began to nourish the child. She gently held to little Edward’s head as he fed and then looked to Somerset, “My Lord, I know two things. The one is that my husband the King will always desire to trust his cousin. The other is that Henry believes that he is divinely sat upon this throne and a break with faith is a break with God. If you tear one asunder, then you have broken both.”

“I no more trust York than you do, my Lady,” Somerset replied, “Yet the Duke has been...exceedingly careful in his actions and how they show.”

Margaret smiled as she kissed little Edward’s soft hair, “Then let us trick him. Move the council somewhere else...Leicester...or some such. It matters not. Those that are true will be there. Those that do not show are unfaithful.”

“His Grace wishes him to show and prove his fealty,” Somerset suggested.

She grinned as she looked to Edmund, “And so...when he does not, he proves his perfidy. And with a great legion behind him as they march on London. What better way to show to my husband what a hell spawn his cousin is and will always be?”

“It is a careful game we play,” Somerset showed a worry.

Margaret held tightly to young Edward, “And yet look what is made. A future. A child that will sit this throne and be stronger for it due to our actions.”

“He is...a beautiful child,” Edmund suggested with love, “Of all of our mistakes...we have done well there.”

She showed him a frown, “Do not be presumptive, sir! I do not think to make a mistake and THIS...is the heir to the throne. Do not forget it!”

“I merely meant to suggest...”

Margaret flashed fierce eyes, “Do not! You hold your conferences and I shall hold mine. As it is clear to me that you are unable to convince, then I shall have to do my part. Keep your pride for when you have won, my Lord. We are not there yet!”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Doggies!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Also, I'm not entirely sure why the Queen and Duke are so determined to fight a war with York...because they'll probably lose.

 

[HistoryDude]

Well, the war appears inevitable.

Is Somerset having doubts about his relationship with the Queen?

The problem is that York is, at the very least, honest and true - and Somerset isn't. Regardless of what happened in real life, in this AAR, the Prince isn't Henry's son, which means that York's claims are correct. Both Somerset and Queen Margaret have extremely self-serving interpretations of events.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Doggies!

My favorite thing!

Also, I'm not entirely sure why the Queen and Duke are so determined to fight a war with York...because they'll probably lose.

Margaret has taken it personally and Somerset is just following her lead. At least I think. As to who would win, I believe that right now you are right. We'll see.

Well, the war appears inevitable.

Is Somerset having doubts about his relationship with the Queen?

The problem is that York is, at the very least, honest and true - and Somerset isn't. Regardless of what happened in real life, in this AAR, the Prince isn't Henry's son, which means that York's claims are correct. Both Somerset and Queen Margaret have extremely self-serving interpretations of events.

Somerset is not having doubts about the Queen, but perhaps the path they are on. She is the one perhaps having doubts. But not about their path but rather Somerset's place in it. As to their interpretations, I think that's about right.


To all - Well the holiday weekend has been productive. Not only have I finished the chapter fully, but I've also outlined the next two and even started writing chapter 10! It's coming along nicely. I even have an interesting (at least to me) little side story to include. It's not much but based on a rumor from the period I've just discovered. And hey...why not take advantage of a rumor, right?

As always, thank you all so much for reading and giving comment. I'm trying to go slow in posting for your sake in keeping up, but admit I'm excited to get where we are going. All in good time.

 

[El Pip]

Margaret held tightly to young Edward, “And yet look what is made. A future. A child that will sit this throne and be stronger for it due to our actions.”

I've only just realised this child is quite cursed as he has terrible genetics on both sides, in CK terms it would be all but guaranteed to inherit the idiot and traitor traits (I assume that is a trait, everything else seems to be). And given Margaret appears to be paying attention to him there is no hope of nurture setting things right.

For the rest I am sadden the King continues to frustrate, there are flashes when he pays attention and taunts us all with insights that would lead to a just reconciliation, then he lapses back into apathy and the jackals of his court run amok again.

Also, I'm not entirely sure why the Queen and Duke are so determined to fight a war with York...because they'll probably lose.

In fairness they do have several advantages as the incumbent and 'legitimate' side, not least many of those who agree with York are going to hesitate about taking the step from being annoyed with the Queen/doubting the heir to actual civil war. Of course just because they won't actively join York doesn't mean they will be vigorous in support of the Queen (because at this point it is the Queen's faction with Henry at best a figurehead), which is something I suspect the Queen is also under-estimating.

I wonder if the real reason is that they are assuming Lord Talbot will continue to side with the King, if they are correct and they can get him shipped over then their confidence would be a lot more justified.

 

[coz1]

I've only just realised this child is quite cursed as he has terrible genetics on both sides, in CK terms it would be all but guaranteed to inherit the idiot and traitor traits (I assume that is a trait, everything else seems to be). And given Margaret appears to be paying attention to him there is no hope of nurture setting things right.

For the rest I am sadden the King continues to frustrate, there are flashes when he pays attention and taunts us all with insights that would lead to a just reconciliation, then he lapses back into apathy and the jackals of his court run amok again.

Genetically, you are probably right trait wise. Shoot, even if the Prince was legitimately Henry's he would fare little better. I've also just realized that the Prince may be too old by this date to breast feed, but I won't change it because it shows just how attached Margaret is to the child. Smothering him with affection. And I do mean smothering.

In fairness they do have several advantages as the incumbent and 'legitimate' side, not least many of those who agree with York are going to hesitate about taking the step from being annoyed with the Queen/doubting the heir to actual civil war. Of course just because they won't actively join York doesn't mean they will be vigorous in support of the Queen (because at this point it is the Queen's faction with Henry at best a figurehead), which is something I suspect the Queen is also under-estimating.

I wonder if the real reason is that they are assuming Lord Talbot will continue to side with the King, if they are correct and they can get him shipped over then their confidence would be a lot more justified.

Good memory on Talbot. I've sort of left him out there to consider without really focusing on it. I'd think they would need someone of his talents to stay in France to protect English interests, though perhaps not given how reduced the French crown is in this timeline. He would certainly be a game changer (as has been mentioned) and thus Margaret likely thinks of this as she forges ahead. Just assuming he would sign with the crown (and thus, her.)

And indeed, there is supporting and then there is blindly following. Let's just say that the Queen and Somerset share a trait common of most narcissists - personal loyalty is everything and any questioning is considered treason. York may have some of that too, but not nearly as much. See the next scene (to follow in just a moment.)

 

[coz1]

Fotheringhay Castle, May 1455​

“He bloody well means to accuse me!” Richard slammed his fist to the table in front of what could only be described as a war council.

The Earl of Salisbury offered a kinder thought, “He means us to show, Dickon. No more. The same as always. All of us. That is his desire.”

“Father...” Warwick spoke up, “...you be too kind in the face of Somerset and the Queen.”

Cecily held closely to her elder sons as she followed, “I’ve two here that will not show! That I have them here with me now...they will never appear before her! You should not either, husband, for it is surely a trap to catch you!”

“Brother...” Salisbury attempted to caution, “...I have raised my men. So has my son. Yet be careful!”

The Earl of Warwick remained as he was, “Father, I need not your worry over mine. The Lord of York has been shown challenge...and has been lied to by the same that has constantly tried to thwart him. At what date will you consider...they do not love us?!”

“And you are head strong, my son!” Salisbury responded with force, “What is called for here is a ruination of us all!”

Richard of York held up his hands, “Silence, please! All of you. I needs must think.”

“Husband...” Cecily did not take the directive, “...if you wish my advice...there is no other reason to trick you if good faith is considered.”

“Indeed, sir!” Warwick chimed in, “To not be invited to a so-called peace conference of the great magnates...of which you are preeminent…and then to change location! You are falling into a trap of their making!”

Salisbury still tried to answer with solemnity, “I cannot disagree with my sister, nor my son, Dickon...yet I challenge you! Do not fall prey to their evil intent!”

“How can I not, brother?!” Richard looked to the Earl, “I am to be counted and they have offered a no win situation! Once again I am asked to answer yet only to those that I hold as rank and horrible! They hold the ear...the mind of this King!”

Warwick followed, “And I think not that this Lord will ever see the grace of this King again. They will not allow it!”

“So what is it that you would wish?” Salisbury questioned, “You would pluck a rose from the garden with all of its thorns and make a war out of it? Which side would you be on? Red? White? Any other wild rose? Cut the face of the enemy with it...which is NOT the King?!”

“Sir...” a young voice spoke out, “...I do not think this a war of roses. It seems a challenge of men. Unreasonable...mayhap. Yet our side does have the best of it. Our pedigree. Our raising and standing.”

Richard of York stood proudly and moved to put an arm around his son Edmund, “The boy makes a point. It is not flowers that take us to this place. Pretty they may be, yet so too is the Queen. And she is...”

“More than part the problem,” Cecily held close to her second son, “If a young child knows this, then so should you great men!”

“Yet mother...father...” Edward spoke up, “...our good uncle does have some points to make. I am young...foolish, likely. If father does this...what is suggested...is he not like to find the same treatment as Duke Humphrey? Good old Duke Humphrey...until he was not?”

Salisbury gave Edward a smile before looking to Richard, “This boy also does speak some truth.”

York met the gaze with a harsh eye, “He is young and may not know the history.”

“Yet I do, father,” Edward answered him, “It is said that Duke Humphrey was murdered in his bed by these same men. That they distrusted him. The Beauforts, yes?”

Richard looked to both of his sons with a kinder eye, “You should not believe any rumor, sirs. I was not there and to be certain, neither were you.”

“Yet father...” Edmund replied quickly, “...the story remains. If we have heard it...our family...you?! We do not wish to lose you! Not if that is true!”

Cecily held to both of her sons as she looked to her husband, “Do you see how this may harm them, my Lord? What they may lose? What I may lose?! If you enter into that den of inequity...you will not come out!”

“Aunt Cecily...” the Earl of Warwick stood to give them all a bow, “...my young Lords...you do not hold fast enough with your father...your husband, my Lady. He is a man of exceptional talent and these we face...too poor in theirs. It is strength that is necessary and I do not mind saying, for I knew the man not, but Lord Richard is made of sterner stuff than Lord Humphrey at the end of his days.”

“I would not like to see the end of his days or any other,” Cecily answered, “I only wish my husband!”

“My love...” Richard moved to brush at her back, “...I shall not leave you. I promise. Yet I am placed to where I am either the rock or the hard place under which it is buried. They will not allow me to win.”

Salisbury suggested with question, “Is victory your only cost?”

“Is victory Somerset’s head?” Richard quickly responded.

“Is that the only one?” The elder Earl asked.

York tried to show a kind eye, “From one Richard to another, I may tell you...I can promise no thing more than the Beaufort clan be removed from power. They are pernicious and evil and only want what they believe is owed. Barred from power, they practice it still. A Cardinal...a general...a councilor to a King...they will never stop. It betrayed Plantagenet with our Good Duke Humphrey. It betrays this house now as they are like a weed! And this house...it is ill gotten and received. I may no longer answer to any man that is not our King...and he is...so far from that.”

“You are willing to go to that last full measure for such purpose, my Lord?” Salisbury questioned.

“I am!” Richard stood taller, “Are you?”

Salisbury took a moment before giving reply, “I do not wish to go to war with the King. And I know that you are not willing either. So...yes...I will stand for justice and right governance. Yet you hold my counsel still...so I would suggest to be careful.”

“He will be for you, husband,” Cecily suggested.

Warwick took a beat but gave bow, “I’ve told you my intentions, my Lord. It is Somerset or be damned.”

“My sons...” Richard looked to Edward and Edmund, “...do you follow your father?”

They both answered in unison, “We would die for you, Papa!”

As Cecily held them closer Richard smiled, “I do not ask for that. And you will not need to. Your Papa will see to your future.”

“And perhaps a meeting near Leicester,” Salisbury showed them both a sad eye.

Richard turned to him, “Do not be so negative, brother. It is a battle of wills. Not fate. And my sons hold a bright future. That is what they should hear.”

“I do hope the same for my own,” the elder Richard Neville replied.

The Duke of York showed a rare smile, “We are not kingmakers, sir! Yet this will be put to rest. I promise to you...forever and more!”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Going out of your way to make sure the civil dispute becomes a civil war when your side has fewer men and less cash...ballsy. the queen may have legitimacy on her side...but as rhe other side aren't actually going after the Crown, or even the king, but his two main advisors, that might not work out so well.

 

[Historywhiz]

but as rhe other side aren't actually going after the Crown, or even the king, but his two main advisors, that might not work out so well.

Remind me again how seriously “we are not opposed to the king but his wicked counselors” was taken by anyone in English history?

 

[HistoryDude]

The Duke of York is in a bad position. Declaring war is probably the best move...

Will anyone remain neutral in this war of the roses?

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Going out of your way to make sure the civil dispute becomes a civil war when your side has fewer men and less cash...ballsy. the queen may have legitimacy on her side...but as rhe other side aren't actually going after the Crown, or even the king, but his two main advisors, that might not work out so well.

I don't think Margaret or even Somerset cares. Are they going out of their way, or just following instincts? It is ballsy, to be sure. But hubris, on both sides really, is holding court. I've said it before and will again...this is a battle of wills. Your consideration is not wrong but it comes from knowing the result. They did not and assumed that they would win.

Remind me again how seriously “we are not opposed to the king but his wicked counselors” was taken by anyone in English history?

It depends on who you ask. Historians would laugh and say that you are right. The magnates at the time would (I think) find some agreement but be careful in how they speak on it. The peasants or burghers...I'm not certain that they cared terribly because it really did not effect them much other than whatever coin they could bring in. It was a disruption, to be certain. But they did not suffer as the Lords did. More fool them.

If you look at English history (or all history, for that matter) you can find time and time again this same argument. A desire for change but not a desire to challenge the power structure. It is a matter of legitimacy. The crown is calling for him to come forward and bend the knee (yet again) and he sees that he can no longer follow that same path. There is reason that I include the notion of Duke Humphrey (and started this story with him.) By all accounts, he was an honest councilor, but he was NOT one desired by the other powers that be. He challenged the power held by those surrounding the young King. That could not be allowed. And so he was killed.

Look back to what I think is the start of this entire historical chain...when Henry Bolingbroke challenged Richard II. Claim, yes. Perhaps a better way going forward (at least as it turned out with Henry V) but THAT was the inciting incident. The idea that one could usurp the crown. Once introduced, it became easier to accept. Not wishing to get into modern politics, I can say at the least it is a thing we still see. Ideas that were unacceptable at a time have gone by the wayside as precedent is made. And while perhaps wrong (and given his families history) it is not too odd to see Richard consider this harsh step.

As suggested above to TBC, I don't think the Queen and Somerset care about the repercussions. I DO think that Richard does, which explains his reticence. Tradition matters and all honors. But at some point...

The Duke of York is in a bad position. Declaring war is probably the best move...

Will anyone remain neutral in this war of the roses?

A terrible position. To his mind, Richard has been nothing but honorable (which is questionable.) Yet what can he do? I suppose he could have retired to the countryside (as Cecily briefly suggested) and lived a comfortable life outside of the politics of the time. But he could not do that, could he? He holds a (somewhat) proud history and is the last true Plantagenet outside of Henry. He sees things going to ruin and must act. Even if it means going against what is accepted.

Will anyone remain neutral? That is a good question. Some will. But most choose a side. I believe that most in this period were just looking at who they thought would win for their own better interest. Again...not too far removed from our own current power structure.

Richard's biggest trouble was that while he was making proper decisions when in power, he was never trusted. There was always an assumption that he desired more. That assumption may not have been wrong.


To all - So I have now finished half of chapter 10 in the writing and at this date have over 400 pages written with over 150,000 words. And we're not even to the Battle of St. Albans yet in this chapter (did you think that I would avoid it?) I'm not even to the juiciest parts and yet each post continues to build on the others (I hope.) This is a longstanding project that I have had on mind for many years and every time I work on it, I am so excited to get it out there. I'm trying not to post too fast, but I cannot stop the writing when it happens (we've seen some breaks in the muse.) Thus, the next update will arrive in just a moment. Look for the next after that to follow sometime this weekend.

I cannot say enough how much I appreciate those of you that continue to follow this story and give comment. One cannot do it without feedback (or can, but it is that much more difficult.) I thank you all for supporting this writing project because I hope that we are in it together. I want to tell this story and I want you to read it. And I like discussing it, so please feel free. All are welcome and you are the best. The very best readers in all of AARland!