The Wars of the Roses

[HistoryDude]

Margaret's rule is falling apart. Some of the Lancastrians should cut their losses and kill her...

I rather think Margaret is closer to Satan here, and I suspect that the Church agrees... and has far more influence than this "queen" would imply.

Roman caliphate, huh? Let's hope word of that insult doesn't get back to Rome, especially given their new crusading fervor...

Why wasn't Margaret excommunicated?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I love when Maggie is angry and resort to French to swear loudly.

Esepcially funny when everyone in the room with her is not only fluent in French, but almost certainly speaking French to her.

 

[Historywhiz]

Roman caliphate, huh? Let's hope word of that insult doesn't get back to Rome, especially given their new crusading fervor...

I’d be more worried about it getting back to King Henry!

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Audible admittance of treason.



...bah.

Why do you think Beaumont got excommunicated?

I do feel a little poorly that I have not set him up much as a character prior to now. There are just so many I can focus on without the reader's head starting to spin.

I love when Maggie is angry and resort to French to swear loudly.

I do have fun with those. I sure wish @The Number 9 were around because I am certain that the french is not entirely accurate. I did take five years of it in school but that was a long time ago.

Margaret's rule is falling apart. Some of the Lancastrians should cut their losses and kill her...

I rather think Margaret is closer to Satan here, and I suspect that the Church agrees... and has far more influence than this "queen" would imply.

Roman caliphate, huh? Let's hope word of that insult doesn't get back to Rome, especially given their new crusading fervor...

Why wasn't Margaret excommunicated?

I'm not sure all of Margaret's misdeeds have gotten back to Rome yet. Or if they have, perhaps the Pope doesn't believe it. Most of the propaganda to the Vatican regards these wayward Lords. And clearly Beaumont and Wiltshire deserve it.

Esepcially funny when everyone in the room with her is not only fluent in French, but almost certainly speaking French to her.

Possibly, but her English has gotten better. And the French use acts more as an exclamation.

I’d be more worried about it getting back to King Henry!

That is a definite concern. Even Margaret realizes it.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Possibly, but her English has gotten better. And the French use acts more as an exclamation.

Her English probably is better but the English nobility and church are still pretty French speaking in 15th century. The 100 year war has only just ended. Middle English has been established and codified by Chaucer, but the church and nobles still prefer French. Then again, the war of the Roses is where the language change starts to really happen, and the tudors afterwards put great pains into building an English national identity.

But if the yorkists win and focus back on France, they'll be commiting to French for the next century. Early modern English will still arise, but it'll be a middle class and lower language, not the nobles.

 

[El Pip]

I do wonder if Margaret will realise the downside of surrounding herself with sycophants before the end? Probably not, she seems incapable of admitting any fault or mistake and always blames others. But it might be an interesting scene if she did, ideally if it occurred just before her execution for High Treason.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Her English probably is better but the English nobility and church are still pretty French speaking in 15th century. The 100 year war has only just ended. Middle English has been established and codified by Chaucer, but the church and nobles still prefer French. Then again, the war of the Roses is where the language change starts to really happen, and the tudors afterwards put great pains into building an English national identity.

But if the yorkists win and focus back on France, they'll be commiting to French for the next century. Early modern English will still arise, but it'll be a middle class and lower language, not the nobles.

Fair enough. Can't say about the future though.

I do wonder if Margaret will realise the downside of surrounding herself with sycophants before the end? Probably not, she seems incapable of admitting any fault or mistake and always blames others. But it might be an interesting scene if she did, ideally if it occurred just before her execution for High Treason.

Part of Margaret is based on my old boss. She could never admit wrong and always blamed someone else when something went wrong (usually because she caused it.) A perfect model if not nearly as good looking.

 

[coz1]

Dartford, June 1460​

Edward stood at the crest of the small hill with the Earl of Warwick and watched as two riders make swift action pushing their mounts to a lather. He turned to spy the nearly thirty thousand men already mustered and ready to fight for them. It seemed like nearly every hour more would come to the Earls and offer their services and it continued to grow. Shifting back to the riders, he could now see Sir William Hastings and Sir John Wenlock slow before them and Hastings immediately dismounted to offer Warwick the word he desired. What they heard was not what he wanted.

“The Lord Mayor refuses, my Lord,” Hastings announced.

Warwick spit to the dirt, “Does he not by now have knowledge of the force we hold?”

“He does, my Lord,” Sir John Wenlock followed, “Perhaps his reticence. Tis not only him but also the aldermen of the city.”

“Damned fools!” Warwick grew furious.

Edward remained calm, “Yet there are many within the city that would champion our cause, is there not?”

“Indeed, my Lord...” Hastings allowed, “...yet they have yet to convince the Lord Mayor and the city gates remain shut tight.”

Warwick paced for a moment and then asked, “Is there at least way to get word into the city?”

“We could try again,” Wenlock suggested, “And there is some good word to come with the poor. The Lords Bergavenny and Fauconberg have been contacted. Apparently Lord Clinton has raised his head and rides out. They are to meet with him north of the city.”

Hastings added, “More to that, my Lord, Clinton does say that the Lords Say and Scrope are already within the city itself.”

“Bolton or Masham?” Warwick questioned.

Wenlock allowed a laugh, “Bolton, of course. Lord Scrope of Masham remains beholden to the whore.”

“And all stand with us and are prepared to join with their own retinues,” Hastings suggested with pleasure.

Warwick stood taller, “Then we should use their combined might. Have them all send word to the Lord Mayor and let him know. We will not be barred from this town!”

“As you say, my Lord,” Hastings gave bow and both men rode off again.

As they left, Edward questioned, “May we trust these Lords?”

“We shall see,” Warwick answered as he turned to walk back down the hill to their temporary headquarters at Dartford, “Lord Clinton was attained with the rest of us and I know not how he has survived yet his only hope for recovery is to ride with us. The others?”

Edward stepped quickly with his cousin, “Lords Scrope and Say are friendly, so where one goes the other likely follows. Yet I was to understand Lord Say’s father held tightly with the late Duke of Suffolk and lost his life for it.”

“Indeed so,” Warwick mused as they approached the farmhouse, “Yet perhaps that is why he shows a friendship at the now. These Lords...they like to pick a winner and mayhap that is what they see.”

“Still...we remain slim,” Edward answered, “A good many men here but few to horseback. We need magnates and as it stands, there is us...your uncles...Viscount Bourchier and hopefully his brother the Archbishop...”

Warwick smiled, “He rides with us, does he not.”

“Indeed,” Edward gave nod, “Yet at the moment we may only allow Say, Scrope and Clinton to that. And how much does Lord Clinton even hold if he has been reduced?”

As they moved to enter the farmhouse, Warwick was certain, “His retainers will rise to him if he is restored. Yet the biggest fish to catch...”

“Is Norfolk,” Edward knew the answer.

Warwick moved to pour some ale for them both, “And I needs must have word from Sir Fulk.”

As they drank and considered it, Archbishop Bourchier and Lord Salisbury approached. The elder Earl smiled, “We have scored a victory already, my son.”

“Do tell,” Warwick was matter of fact is his reply.

Salisbury shifted closer, “Our good Bishop of Terni has done solid work. Having sent copies of the Papal Bull to all good men of the cloth throughout the realm, your brother the Bishop sends word that many are outraged that the Queen ignores such good and proper advice from the Holy Father. From his place to Exeter, he has managed already to recruit the Bishops of Ely, Lincoln and Salisbury. And we already hold the Bishop of Rochester in our train.”

“Bishop Low is an especially fine ally, my Lord,” the Archbishop spoke over their shoulders, “For he was once the very confessor to His Grace the King.”

Edward allowed a smile, “Good old Georgie.”

“Indeed so, nephew,” Salisbury looked again to his son, “And proves your brother’s worth. Even with all he has been made to suffer during our exile, he remains true and brings others to our side. All very powerful in their own way.”

Warwick stewed as he drank, “And already tied to us. Bishop Grey of Ely is our cousin and his brother was Lady Isabel of York’s first husband. And Bishop Beauchamp of Salisbury is my Lady wife’s cousin. Of course they would be to our side.”

“And the Bishop of Lincoln, cousin?” Edward questioned, “What connection does Chadworth hold?”

“I owe him a debt,” Warwick suggested with irritation, “I imagine he would wish to see me live and regain my fortune so he may be repaid.”

Salisbury held an arm to his son, “While I know all must be perfect, sir, this shows that we are gaining fine and solid ground. This is precisely what we desired and hoped to find.”

“Our cousin speaks it true, father,” Warwick looked to Edward, “These are all well met and achieved, but we remain too few. If we wish to be decisive, we must have more. And London.”

As he spoke, Sir William Hastings entered the farmhouse, “My Lord...more word comes from the city. The Lord Mayor does now say that you are free to enter provided that these soldiers...and I quote…behave themselves.”

“Perhaps a rather tall order,” Edward grinned.

Warwick did not smile but gave nod, “Finally. We waste too much time. Send word to our uncles to meet at the bridge. We will enter triumphantly.”

“And together,” Salisbury agreed.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

As he spoke, Sir William Hastings entered the farmhouse, “My Lord...more word comes from the city. The Lord Mayor does now say that you are free to enter provided that these soldiers...and I quote…behave themselves.”

Something of a reminder that the City is supposed to be a little bit seperate from the rest of the kingdom, and a suggestion that if the Yorkists do win, they would be wise to remember that.

It was the Tudors who really started the growth of London, by trying to subvert the city by building up Westminister. It worked...more or less. Might not happen here though.

 

[HistoryDude]

The foolishness of angering the Church is made clear.

Getting spies within the lands of nobles loyal to Margaret might be a good idea for the Yorkists...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

*Maggie's French curses intesifies*

Lovely.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Something of a reminder that the City is supposed to be a little bit seperate from the rest of the kingdom, and a suggestion that if the Yorkists do win, they would be wise to remember that.

It was the Tudors who really started the growth of London, by trying to subvert the city by building up Westminister. It worked...more or less. Might not happen here though.

I sort of think of it like Westminster is the government capital, London is the financial capital and Canterbury is the religious capital. And no doubt, the merchants and people of London are of themselves and quite powerful. Part the reason York and Warwick have spent so much time sending propaganda to them. And I have had Warwick mention it a few times for a reason...London is the key to the crown.

The foolishness of angering the Church is made clear.

Getting spies within the lands of nobles loyal to Margaret might be a good idea for the Yorkists...

You should assume that Warwick has spies everywhere. Sir Fulk is very good at what he does.

*Maggie's French curses intesifies*

Lovely.

Something like... Merde!


To all - This above post and some few that follow will begin to list a lot of names that don't necessarily show up in the work. They are important, but as before I just don't have enough time to cover them all. It can begin to make your head spin but I made myself a handy guide. A lovely spreadsheet that lists all of the Lords of various ranks and who holds that title at which time. It is too much to post here, but it was very handy as I moved forward in the work. Bear with me as I start to mention people that haven't come up before. It can get confusing. Especially with someone like Lord Scrope. There were two of them...Scrope of Bolton and Scrope of Masham. All or none of them may show up later in person, but for now they are background.

I'm hoping to get the next scene up tomorrow. And thank you to all for reading and giving comment!

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Something like... Merde!

That's for the starters. Then there will be around an hour of colorful French swear words. They will heaerd her even in Orleans.

 

[Historywhiz]

That's for the starters. Then there will be around an hour of colorful French swear words. They will heaerd her even in Orleans.

“I love cursing in French, it’s like wiping your [bottom] with silk” - The Merovingian, The Matrix Reloaded

 

[coz1]

That's for the starters. Then there will be around an hour of colorful French swear words. They will heaerd her even in Orleans.

“I love cursing in French, it’s like wiping your [bottom] with silk” - The Merovingian, The Matrix Reloaded

I really should pass those scenes by someone like @Werther to make them accurate but I'd hate to be a burden.

 

[coz1]

Baynard’s Castle, July 1460​

Lucy Wentworth sped about the chamber packing as much of her Lady’s matters as she could. The sound outside the castle seemed deafening to her. She had never heard a cannon fire before. Lucy shivered at each boom. How Lady Anne remained so calm, she did not know. Yet at each check to her mistress, Anne Duchess of Exeter only allowed a steely eye.

“Do not forget the gold dress,” Anne suggested as she kept her gaze to the city below.

Lucy was quick about it, “Of course not, m’lady.”

“And the shoes that go with it,” the Duchess followed before looking closer at something outside, “Why does he keep shooting at his own men?”

“M’lady?” Lucy questioned.

Anne turned to her maid with a pained face, “Look at this. The cannon fire from the Tower and yet it reaches no person but those within London. My cousin and brother have not even entered the city!”

“I dunno, m’lady,” Lucy did as told and looked but had no answer.

Anne skewed her face into a frown, “Old Lord Scales, surely. I think past his prime but he hurts no one he desires and all of the rest of us.”

“It’s too terrible, madam,” Lucy shook with fear, “And where’s your Lord husband the Duke? Shouldn’t be here to protect you?”

With a sigh Anne moved to inspect her bags, “I may not tell where my less than brilliant husband be at the now. Mayhap at her side and not mine own.”

“Are you not frightened, m’lady?!” Lucy finally stopped rushing about and confronted her mistress.

The young Duchess turned to her with gentle sweetness, “Shh...shhh...all will be good. My brother comes to see me and we shall be well met. These fools to London...they will get excited. We must remain calm. If Ned is in their train, then my father will not be far behind.”

Turning back to her bags, her personal guard Sir Peter entered the chamber, “My Lady, we must be at once to the Tower.”

“Have you gone mad?” Anne looked to him with shock, “Do you not see the terror Lord Scales has wrought?”

Sir Peter offered a bow, “That is precisely why you must be spirited there without delay. We cannot know the whims of these Londoners once the Earl of Warwick enters the city.”

“As I say, m’lady...you’re not safe,” Lucy agreed.

“Madam...” Sir Peter pressed more strongly, “...I am given task by your Lord husband to protect you. We cannot know what type of hard sorts your cousin may bring with him. They are from Calais, my Lady. Used to their spoils. And the meanness of Kent and these types to London. I have seen it too many times. They will not think twice before taking what they feel is deserved. They are given liberty and I mean to make certain that they do not take you.”

Anne exhaled with exasperation, “The two of you...honestly! You would think that we were under siege and our lives at peril. This is my cousin...my uncle...my brother! They would no more harm me than they would themselves.”

“It is not these men that I am worried about, my Lady,” Sir Peter answered, “Looting has already begun and lawlessness is free. The Captain of the Tower does not assist yet he protects his own. Which is precisely why you should take steps to be under that protection. The Lords Hungerford and Warre are already on their way. So too the Earl of Kendal. We should join them.”

“Jean de Foix...” Anne moved to the window and looked out once more, “...that poor soul. He’s only just arrived to England and now this.”

Lucy begged, “We should be more the poor if we don’t listen, m’Lady. Hear good Sir Peter and let’s make haste.”

“I tell you that my father will not be long in the waiting,” Duchess Anne turned back to them and tried to reassure, “He will ride into the city and restore order as he does. And then he and all will go the King...sweet King Henry...and he will listen. Despite all of this, the King does love my father and he has told me so.”

Sir Peter shifted to pick up some of her bags, “I am certain that this was all meaningful, my Lady, yet when I think to find word from your father it will be that I may let him know that you are safe and protected. To the Tower we must go!”

She exhaled again but finally agreed, “Very well. Lead on, sir. I am suspect of Lord Scales yet when father arrives, he will sort it out. And mayhap I shall see my cousins.”

“It’s how you’re are tellin’ us, m’lady,” Lucy helped her along, “Brave sir knight...you heard her. Lead on!”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Well...hopefully they know better than to sack London. Whether or not they can stop their men though...

This is the one thing that would really hurt them long term. Sacking London isn't usually done. The last time it really happened was 1066. If York wants to be king, and his supporters want him to be king, avoiding this is essentially. His armies cannot put ANY English Town or city to the torch.

They are not the Queen.

 

[HistoryDude]

Try to avoid a sack, yeah. Although the text kind of made it sound like the Lancastrians were already attacking London, for some reason? What's going on there?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Try to avoid a sack, yeah. Although the text kind of made it sound like the Lancastrians were already attacking London, for some reason? What's going on there?

If that's happening and the yorkist can prove it, all the better.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Well...hopefully they know better than to sack London. Whether or not they can stop their men though...

This is the one thing that would really hurt them long term. Sacking London isn't usually done. The last time it really happened was 1066. If York wants to be king, and his supporters want him to be king, avoiding this is essentially. His armies cannot put ANY English Town or city to the torch.

They are not the Queen.

The people of London do quite a bit of sacking themselves. And it does not take much either.

Try to avoid a sack, yeah. Although the text kind of made it sound like the Lancastrians were already attacking London, for some reason? What's going on there?

Lord Scales was about 60 years old by this point and likely did not have complete information. He really did fire over the city but he might have thought that Warwick, et al were already inside the gates. That, or he fired out of fear.

If that's happening and the yorkist can prove it, all the better.

And indeed, the people of London noticed. It did the Lancastrians no favors when this occurred.