The Way Forward, an update from the team behind Cities: Skylines

[Purplizer]

Our holidays are in July (like every year), the patch is coming out before that. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from the message. I'm not going to make a guess at when we pass the needed tests to release as I don't want to set expectations for a release and then have a critical issue pop up delaying it. I know it sucks that we're vague about when patches come out, but we're sharing what we can without making promises we can't keep.

But you actuallly said it yourself one month ago: "we expect the next patch to be released in about a month". It's been about a month now, and after this month, all you can say is "Well, we don't know when we'll release it yet, but it will definitely be somewhere in the next two months." So basically within 30 days, your own estimates have changed from +/- 30 days to "a timeframe from 30 to 90 days". Wow ...

We're working on fixes based on priority. We could probably find some quick and easy fixes to minor issues, but those aren't the ones that are frustrating when you play the game.

Uhm, that's not correct. The smallest issues can be very frustrating. Look at which small mods are extremely popular. Good bug fixing should be a mix of major issues that take long to fix, and small issues to crunch the list. For example 10-15% of every sprint is dedicated to fixing small issues, just to get them fixed. Because otherwise, it's like you say: the minor issues just became an infinite backlog that won't even be fixed in 5 years.

 

[TetraDax]

The fix for this issue is included in the economy rework. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to address it earlier.


Our holidays are in July (like every year), the patch is coming out before that. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from the message. I'm not going to make a guess at when we pass the needed tests to release as I don't want to set expectations for a release and then have a critical issue pop up delaying it. I know it sucks that we're vague about when patches come out, but we're sharing what we can without making promises we can't keep.

Then let me ask a different question: You specifically said "the next patch will come in a month", a month ago. At some point in that timeframe, you realized that you cannot be held to that. Why is this only publically communicated after the community asks about it? Why is there no proactive communication on your side? Why do you not actively announce "sorry, we are going to miss the date we gave you, heres why: .."?

 

[RedellSlowey]

The fix for this issue is included in the economy rework. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to address it earlier.

So why is information like "This bug that has made the game's entire gameplay loop meaningless for 7 out of 8 months of its existence will be fixed soon" hidden away in a thread like this and only handed out in apology to upset customers bringing up specific things they're tired of waiting for?

How hard is it to make a post- or posts, perhaps weekly- detailing what's going on behind the scenes?

Yeah these bugs/patches need testing. But surely after a MONTH you have some idea of what to expect in the patch? The Sims does this- it's called a Laundry List. They list every major known issue that they expect to be resolved in the next patch, complete with links to the bug report forum posts about those issues for more details on what the problem is, who experiences it, workarounds, etc.

Why can't you disclose the fixes currently in testing? The fact that they're in testing is irrelevant to us. We're eager to understand the actual progress being made. Why has it taken seven months for us to receive any substantial information on this bug's resolution? This is crucial information, fundamental to the game's entire functionality. I would contend that it, along with land value, constitutes the most significant issues plaguing the game at present, aside from design flaws. And the only reason we're aware of an anticipated fix is due to our persistent requests for even the slightest update.

There must be a tracking system like Trello where you document your activities. Could you possibly gather a list of accomplishments and planned significant changes from everyone's emails or by inquiring around the office, and then compile a post about it with a "subject to change" disclaimer?

I don't know how much clearer the community can be that the silence is deafening. We're so sick of the silence.

We know this game has people working on it who are meant to communicate and produce things like this. I mean, you guys did find the time to produce a 20 minute mini-documentary on your failure to launch...so I think it's really weird you can't find the time to tell us anything, or to fix some smaller bugs while we wait for a major patch. There was plenty of time for 8 straight months of marketing that turned out to be for an incomplete product, but somehow after launch there's no energy that can be put towards giving us any information, in any format besides small snippets of reveals in random forum threads that nobody even sees? I just don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it.

 

[TripleAgent]

Yeah these bugs/patches need testing. But surely after a MONTH you have some idea of what to expect in the patch? The Sims does this- it's called a Laundry List. They list every major known issue that they expect to be resolved in the next patch, complete with links to the bug report forum posts about those issues for more details on what the problem is, who experiences it, workarounds, etc.

On this point, when asked about using a Trello board, they've previously said that they're not capable of doing that. It's not clear why (much like a lot of the issues with the game) given that I would hope that they're tracking bugs and fixes in some form and it should be pretty straightforward to share that list, but for some reason it's insurmountable.

I completely understand the desire for a clear overview of the issues we’re aware of and working on, but I also want to be up front with you that it isn’t realistic for us to have a list with categories like that. We simply don’t have the resources to keep it updated without taking time away from other important tasks. I would absolutely love for us to update the forum bug reports to "Fixed" when there is a fix, but doing so takes time away from logging new reports. While it would be nice to have, it’s just always going to be higher priority to make sure the reports are investigated.

It's deeply disappointing, especially given the promises for better communication, but at this point it seems like they'd rather surprise us on patch note day than tell us anything about what they're working on besides "economy rework".

 

[RedellSlowey]

If they don't have any internal record keeping of what they're doing it sure explains a lot about how the game released the way it did. Something's so wrong.

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

So why is information like "This bug that has made the game's entire gameplay loop meaningless for 7 out of 8 months of its existence will be fixed soon" hidden away in a thread like this and only handed out in apology to upset customers bringing up specific things they're tired of waiting for?

How hard is it to make a post- or posts, perhaps weekly- detailing what's going on behind the scenes?

Yeah these bugs/patches need testing. But surely after a MONTH you have some idea of what to expect in the patch? The Sims does this- it's called a Laundry List. They list every major known issue that they expect to be resolved in the next patch, complete with links to the bug report forum posts about those issues for more details on what the problem is, who experiences it, workarounds, etc.

Why can't you disclose the fixes currently in testing? The fact that they're in testing is irrelevant to us. We're eager to understand the actual progress being made. Why has it taken seven months for us to receive any substantial information on this bug's resolution? This is crucial information, fundamental to the game's entire functionality. I would contend that it, along with land value, constitutes the most significant issues plaguing the game at present, aside from design flaws. And the only reason we're aware of an anticipated fix is due to our persistent requests for even the slightest update.

There must be a tracking system like Trello where you document your activities. Could you possibly gather a list of accomplishments and planned significant changes from everyone's emails or by inquiring around the office, and then compile a post about it with a "subject to change" disclaimer?

I don't know how much clearer the community can be that the silence is deafening. We're so sick of the silence.

We know this game has people working on it who are meant to communicate and produce things like this. I mean, you guys did find the time to produce a 20 minute mini-documentary on your failure to launch...so I think it's really weird you can't find the time to tell us anything, or to fix some smaller bugs while we wait for a major patch. There was plenty of time for 8 straight months of marketing that turned out to be for an incomplete product, but somehow after launch there's no energy that can be put towards giving us any information, in any format besides small snippets of reveals in random forum threads that nobody even sees? I just don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Playing devils advocate, I think they are trying to learn the lessons of overhyped marketing and delivery. Just because they claim to fix it doesn’t mean it is actually fixed - anything could crop up during now and release time that could potentially brick the fix and they don’t want more negative posts of how it is another promise betrayed.

Personally, while ofc I would love updates, I would prefer no news and they get it right with all the works as promised rather than updates which tend to go wrong.

 

[RedellSlowey]

But it doesn't matter...

If they say "Hey, we're working on X, Y, and Z and intend to do A B and C with 1 2 and 3" that's all information for us.

If the time comes and Z didn't get finished yet and B was reconfigured into b and 2 and 3 got combined into 4.5, who cares? They'd rather be dead silent than risk having to clarify at patch time "This didn't quite make it in yet" or "We did this differently than planned"?


They have to have a list somewhere of stuff they intend to do, how hard can it be to share it in some way and then update us on how it's going or how it went when a patch finally comes out?

 

[co_avanya]

I'm hesitant to give an estimate for when the patch may be available because I don't know if it will pass the tests or need a little longer. The "about a month" estimate we gave may very well still be accurate, but I just don't know. What I do know is that it will be out before we go on holiday, so that's what I shared. We try our best to manage expectations, but as I'm already seeing disappointment the patch isn't out, even though it hasn't been a full month since the last patch, our estimate clearly read as "less than a month" to some. Which I get, you're eager for the next patch and next round of fixes. We're itching to get it in your hands too, but we want to make sure it's ready.

My attempt was to give an answer along the lines of "No update to our estimate, but definitely before our holiday starts in July" which I clearly failed to make clear. That's my bad.

Uhm, that's not correct. The smallest issues can be very frustrating. Look at which small mods are extremely popular. Good bug fixing should be a mix of major issues that take long to fix, and small issues to crunch the list. For example 10-15% of every sprint is dedicated to fixing small issues, just to get them fixed. Because otherwise, it's like you say: the minor issues just became an infinite backlog that won't even be fixed in 5 years.

If you have any specific minor issues in mind, please let me know. I'd be happy to take a look if they don't require much work and have the correct priority. We're always looking to include impactful changes whenever we can, however, it's worth keeping in mind that what presents as a small issue in-game may have a complicated solution.

Why can't you disclose the fixes currently in testing? The fact that they're in testing is irrelevant to us. We're eager to understand the actual progress being made. Why has it taken seven months for us to receive any substantial information on this bug's resolution? This is crucial information, fundamental to the game's entire functionality. I would contend that it, along with land value, constitutes the most significant issues plaguing the game at present, aside from design flaws. And the only reason we're aware of an anticipated fix is due to our persistent requests for even the slightest update.

There must be a tracking system like Trello where you document your activities. Could you possibly gather a list of accomplishments and planned significant changes from everyone's emails or by inquiring around the office, and then compile a post about it with a "subject to change" disclaimer?

This comes down to expectation management. We're being careful not to make promises we can't keep, and even if something comes with a disclaimer, we see disappointment when it needs more work or something else causes the plans to change. We also don't share a list of coming fixes ahead of time to avoid confusion about whether a patch is available or what issues are fixed. The best I can do right now is share that the economy rework has been the big focus of the coming patch. We've looked at the economic simulation and systems related to it, overhauled parts that weren't as well as they could, weren't transparent enough, or didn't give you enough control over your city. That of course also means fixing bugs related to these systems (assuming of course the bugs were still there after the overhaul), but we also have a series of general bug fixes, improvements to performance, and fixes for more cases causing crashes. I know that isn't as good as a list of issues we've resolved, but I'm afraid that will have to wait until we share the patch notes.

 

[TetraDax]

We try our best to manage expectations, but as I'm already seeing disappointment the patch isn't out, even though it hasn't been a full month since the last patch, our estimate clearly read as "less than a month" to some. Which I get, you're eager for the next patch and next round of fixes. We're itching to get it in your hands too, but we want to make sure it's ready.

Would you bloody stop trying to blame the community for misunderstanding your bad communication? I am sick of it. For eight months now, CO has done nothing but mess up day after day and then we constantly have to read about how the community is toxic, how expectations are too high, how we just misunderstand what is being said.
The last patch notes specifically said "The next patch will be a month". After complete radio silence since then, people ask "so what about the patch? Any news?" and only then do you share that you have no idea about the timespan and it could be another month still. That is not us misunderstanding something, that is your complete lack of communication having consequences. This wouldn't be an issue at all if somewhere between the last patch and now, you just said "so, we are working on X, and it might take a bit more time than we previously said". It's not that hard.

 

[Caprea.Berlin]

Would you bloody stop trying to blame the community for misunderstanding your bad communication? I am sick of it. For eight months now, CO has done nothing but mess up day after day and then we constantly have to read about how the community is toxic, how expectations are too high, how we just misunderstand what is being said.
The last patch notes specifically said "The next patch will be a month". After complete radio silence since then, people ask "so what about the patch? Any news?" and only then do you share that you have no idea about the timespan and it could be another month still. That is not us misunderstanding something, that is your complete lack of communication having consequences. This wouldn't be an issue at all if somewhere between the last patch and now, you just said "so, we are working on X, and it might take a bit more time than we previously said". It's not that hard.

Perhaps you should reread what was that less then a month ago when the last patch vas there?

"... It will take about a month "

The last patch was at the 24th of April. One month would be the 24th of May. Sure, I suppose we all hoped they would be able to make it in a shorter time period, but the period of 1 month is not over yet. Starting this week, if there will be a patch this month, I would consider completely fine, but acting as if the timeframe has passed and there was no communication is, well I would call it unfriendly.

As Avanya now says the next patch should be out before they start holiday in July, yes, that is disappointing. Because that does mean that the "about a month" ends in being 2 month (or even more).

 

[TetraDax]

Perhaps you should reread what was that less then a month ago when the last patch vas there?

"... It will take about a month "

The last patch was at the 24th of April. One month would be the 24th of May. Sure, I suppose we all hoped they would be able to make it in a shorter time period, but the period of 1 month is not over yet. Starting this week, if there will be a patch this month, I would consider completely fine, but acting as if the timeframe has passed and there was no communication is, well I would call it unfriendly.

Stating "well technically it hasn't been a month yet" is entirely missing the point. They gave us a timeframe, and only when that timeframe is close to being over, they tell us they never even knew if they can actually achieve that timeframe and have no idea when the patch will actually be out; and only tell us after specifically being asked about it. And then they go "well that's on you for misunderstanding what we said". This is bad communication by all means. CO have been completely silent except for some forum answers in this thread from Avanya (who I should clarify I do not blame at all, despite my harsh words, she has a very tough job in a situation like this, having to face a community that is angry about things she is at no fault for whatsoever and can only communicate about what CO allows her to).

So many other things could have been done, for instance:
Saying in this thread "We have another patch in the works that includes a rework of the economy system. We don't know when it will be out, but will update you in three weeks about what we have so far."
Posting any sort of update in the past few weeks, mentioning that you are likely going to miss the time frame set out in the last patch notes but showing what you have so far.

But as seem to become customary, they chose the worst of both worlds. Instead of showing us actual progress that would alleviate peoples concern over an apparent slow development pace, they are giving us a time, and then go afk without ever telling us either what they actually mean by "about a month", or without telling us they are going to miss that date and why.

Is the development pace actually slow? Are they going to miss the timeline they set? I don't actually know. Because they aren't telling us anything. And that is the point. After 8 months of disappointment, I just want some actual transparency. Show us what you are doing, so I can actually regain the trust that you are capable of fixing the mess. And I don't mean vague behind-the-scenes posts, or the third week in a row of "I promise we are still working hard on the asset editor". Cold, hard facts. The receipts you actually are doing that.

 

[gustavotoniato]

Would you bloody stop trying to blame the community for misunderstanding your bad communication? I am sick of it. For eight months now, CO has done nothing but mess up day after day and then we constantly have to read about how the community is toxic, how expectations are too high, how we just misunderstand what is being said.
The last patch notes specifically said "The next patch will be a month". After complete radio silence since then, people ask "so what about the patch? Any news?" and only then do you share that you have no idea about the timespan and it could be another month still. That is not us misunderstanding something, that is your complete lack of communication having consequences. This wouldn't be an issue at all if somewhere between the last patch and now, you just said "so, we are working on X, and it might take a bit more time than we previously said". It's not that hard.

With all due respect, this is exactly the kind of reaction that the careful communication they are having is trying to be avoided.

Because with the level of aggressiveness you posted, anything they said that wasn't exactly the good news you expected would generate this.

And so, no one wants to come here to receive hate.

 

[TripleAgent]

This comes down to expectation management. We're being careful not to make promises we can't keep, and even if something comes with a disclaimer, we see disappointment when it needs more work or something else causes the plans to change. We also don't share a list of coming fixes ahead of time to avoid confusion about whether a patch is available or what issues are fixed. The best I can do right now is share that the economy rework has been the big focus of the coming patch. We've looked at the economic simulation and systems related to it, overhauled parts that weren't as well as they could, weren't transparent enough, or didn't give you enough control over your city. That of course also means fixing bugs related to these systems (assuming of course the bugs were still there after the overhaul), but we also have a series of general bug fixes, improvements to performance, and fixes for more cases causing crashes. I know that isn't as good as a list of issues we've resolved, but I'm afraid that will have to wait until we share the patch notes.

If the lesson learned here is "keep the playerbase even more in the dark about what we're working on after months of disappointment, communications issues, controversy, and broken promises " then I don't know what to say. Every other PDX studio is somehow able to tell us what's going on in patch notes and dev updates. I thought after the Beach Properties fiasco there would at least be some level of transparency given how over the last year the most community -harming issues came from poor or nonexistent communication about the actual state of the game, not players misunderstanding information.
 

 

[RedellSlowey]

We try our best to manage expectations, but as I'm already seeing disappointment the patch isn't out, even though it hasn't been a full month since the last patch, our estimate clearly read as "less than a month" to some.

No, don't blame us for "misinterpreting" what you said. We're not "upset the patch isn't out yet", we're asking "Hey so are we going to get any updates on this since it should be releasing within the next week or two?" and upset that your answer is "No, we somehow don't have any information to share whatsoever after a month of deafening silence".

We are not upset the patch isn't here right this second, we are upset that you refuse to give us any clearer timeframe after the timeline YOU PERSONALLY SET FOR US is nearly here, and phrase this refusal in a way that makes it sound like it could be another month. Please don't let this become your "This game isn't for you" moment by putting some imagined misunderstanding on the players.

This comes down to expectation management. We're being careful not to make promises we can't keep

You're telling me that after a month of making this patch, there's NOTHING in it that you can't be CERTAIN is going to make it to the game? A whole month and nothing is fixed enough for sure that we're gonna see it through? How is that possible?

This is like being texted for an update on your ETA driving to somebody's house and you tell them not only can you not update your ETA, you can't even tell them how far you've driven so far.

It makes no sense. I'm just...my head is spinning thinking about this, it makes no sense. How can you have nothing solid after a month? Is every fix or change being done concurrently and they're all 95% of the way done but yet every single one of them is still somehow hanging in a limbo state with a 50% chance it won't make it through testing? It makes no sense.

This is the thread for the day that this company's reputation fell to pieces and they had to promise on their hands and knees to do better and communicate more and this is how you guys define better and more communication? Insisting you have nothing to communicate after a month and no idea when you will be able to give more information?

The issue isn't just this patch, either. Is this how we're meant to engage with this game for the rest of its lifespan? Huge, huge, huge blocks of time where nothing happens, nobody says anything, nothing's communicated, and nobody knows when to expect anything to ever be any better?

Why did you simply not finish the game before releasing it. I'm so disappointed. I haven't even played in 6 months, I came back and read up on what's been going on and it's just disappointment after disappointment. This hurts, man. I just want to have fun. This was one of my most anticipated games of the last decade. I don't get it.

 

[TetraDax]

With all due respect, this is exactly the kind of reaction that the careful communication they are having is trying to be avoided.

Because with the level of aggressiveness you posted, anything they said that wasn't exactly the good news you expected would generate this.

And so, no one wants to come here to receive hate.

Yes, I am aggressive. Because people paid AAA money for an unfinished game that - by the devs own admittance - failed to deliver on the promises it made, and is broken in many fundamental ways. And I am angry because the people responsible provide not a single drop of information that would make me trust them to be actually able to fix the host of issues - Because they barely communicate at all (which is decidedly different to "careful communication"). I'm simply tired of walking on eggshells, and I'm tired of constantly being disappointed by this company while at the same time being expected to lower my expectations and stay patient and stay friendly, despite the fact they took our money and still haven't been able to deliver what they said they would over half a year later. If this was any other product than a game, people would be absolutely furious.

 

[DiNardo1910]

I just want my refund :\

I bought a product that was advertised, but never existed

 

[UsmanSyed]

The transparent way to do this would be this. Say you are working on the patch, after a week you guys can post:

'We are working on this patch, and ABC is done, EFG is currently being worked on and HIJ will be next when this done.'

Heck you can attach few screenshots or clips so we can see how much progress has been done. Its not that hard, and this what you guys communicated that we will be more transparent and more involved with the community. That is all that is needed.

 

[Liringlaas]

Would you bloody stop trying to blame the community for misunderstanding your bad communication? I am sick of it. For eight months now, CO has done nothing but mess up day after day and then we constantly have to read about how the community is toxic, how expectations are too high, how we just misunderstand what is being said.
The last patch notes specifically said "The next patch will be a month". After complete radio silence since then, people ask "so what about the patch? Any news?" and only then do you share that you have no idea about the timespan and it could be another month still. That is not us misunderstanding something, that is your complete lack of communication having consequences. This wouldn't be an issue at all if somewhere between the last patch and now, you just said "so, we are working on X, and it might take a bit more time than we previously said". It's not that hard.

You prove exactly their point: That people get expectations in the wrong way. In about a month could be 25 or 35 days. "About a month" is different from "In exactly a month. And you'll be the first one to complain very loud if the patch is released after 1 month and 1 day, just like you would complain if it was 20 days but was not polished enough.

Give them a break, I know some of you people are stuck in the 20 century where people spent more time committing to fixed deadline than doing actual work, and then worked their people to death to meet that deadline. That's not how CO works.

I get the disappointment but why does it have to be constant? They already suffered from the launch and DLC, why not be a normal human being and let them be?

You guys put them in an impossible situation. If they speak you don't like it and if they don't you blame the radio silence. If they take their time patching you're unhappy and if they rush it it doesnt work (DLC patch). Can you not just play something else like an adult would, and come check in a few months?

 

[TripleAgent]

I get the disappointment but why does it have to be constant? They already suffered from the launch and DLC, why not be a normal human being and let them be?

You guys put them in an impossible situation. If they speak you don't like it and if they don't you blame the radio silence. If they take their time patching you're unhappy and if they rush it it doesnt work (DLC patch). Can you not just play something else like an adult would, and come check in a few months?

Sure, when they give me my refund for the game that they dishonestly marketed and then blamed us for being "toxic" for expecting that basic features like a logical functioning economy and asset import would be there at or near release, not still outstanding after over six months with virtually no communication on what is being worked on besides the broad category "economy" and "there has been progress but asset import is still not done." What major improvements do they have to show since release other than getting the totally superfluous and unnecessary PDX Mods platform open (when we could have just had Steam Workshop at launch) and adding DLSS?

While they have my money, though, I'm absolutely going to hold them accountable for ultimately giving me the product that they sold me.

 

[maarten_714]

We release patches when they're ready to go, which is why I can't really give you an estimate of when the next one is coming. We need to see if anything comes up in testing that absolutely needs to be fixed before it goes live, then fix and test again to confirm it's good to go. Once a patch passes all tests, that's when we release it.

I do know all well designed development cycles have a "testing" build which is basically the alpha build that developers can stick anything in to test if it works, then a "beta" build which is a more polished build, more structured and is working towards a release build, then a "staging" build which is essentially the final product, tested before full release, and then obviously the final release.

Many games have an option to opt-in or opt-out of a test release. One of the other games I play (Lord of the Rings Online) has a similar setup, and has made the "beta" builds public, utilizing a "beta" server and a separate install so that the public can test the game in its current state, and provide feedback via the beta server forum.

Usually, about 3 or 4 beta "rounds" are published before the final patch date is set and released. Typically, during this period of public testing, there is 1 build a week, usually released on Thursdays. Typically, public beta testing for the next big patch starts about 3 weeks before launch, with a new version each week. Sometimes after 3 builds there is still work to be done so they postpone the patch for a week, and squeeze in one more test build.

Not that this completely eliminates bugs, but it does help in preparing the community for what is coming. There is no NDA with this particular game, only a small test group being able to access even earlier alpha builds for initial feedback are subject to an NDA, but not the public testing that everyone can participate in.

I know this is something that CO can also do, given the fact you have given a lot of people from the streaming and modding community early access. You should consider doing something similar for the patches being worked on. It would require a second install in Steam of the game, meaning you will have two versions installed, one "production" and one "beta" that is optional to use/test/work on.

CO should consider something similar. Open up a beta forum here, and then release 1 or 2 "beta builds" to let the public test before official release.