But once you go to market you have to go back home. Presumably you are bringing goods both ways. So why does it matter if it is up then down or down then up.
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Assuming this is representing the Baggara Arabs, it isn't that early. I believe there is a 1391 letter from one of the Kanem Mai's to the Mamluk sultan complaining about Arabs repeatedly raiding and settling in his lands. But it's unclear how long this had been going on.
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I am currently working on a huge west africa map that combines a lot of the proposals, and I must say a lot of the central african provinces were only really settled in VIC3's timeframe. Locations should orient themselves along the big rivers and dont need to include massive swaths of modern day nature reserves, especially when most of the cities were established by the french or late wadai/arab interactions.
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I'm a bit surprised the market mechanics don't let Benin spread further along the coast at the expense of the inland center of trade at Begho. Is it really easier for goods to move from Begho across hills and into wetlands, rather than just by sea from Benin?
Or is this the effect of some kind of diplomatic treaty with Mankessim (like a boycott of Benin, or a trade deal with Bonoman)?
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Yeah, I wonder about that too. Looking at the Persia and Arabia feedbacks, it seems like market access propagation by sea has diminished significantly. Not sure why. Maybe it has to do with societal values?
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Which seems utterly preposterous; sea travel is something along the lines of... 20 times cheaper than land travel, broadly speaking, if rivers are 5 times cheaper than land travel.
Markets should primarily propagate by sea.
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So maybe there can be some in the region to start, and more can migrate there as time goes on.
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I understand West Africa can be a difficult place to map due to the scarcity of historical written sources, but here are some suggestions off the top of my head about Nigeria:
- The "Nigerian" language is an unnecessary abstraction when you already have the correct languages in the culture map. Yoruba, Igbo, and Edo are their own languages, just like Ijaw.
- I don't know what Bantoid is to the southeast of the Igbo culture, but I assume you mean Ibibio and/or Efik. It would be easier to call Ibibo since it's the dominant culture (and language) in the Cross River region (Efik also exists, but they are in the same Cross River language group as Ibibo and much smaller)
- As an aside, a Nigerian language would be like having a Romance language. Way too broad, and what you have represented is at least two different language groups (Volta-Niger and Ibibio-Eflk)
- Not sure if this matters, but the cultures in Nigeria were/are extremely tribal. Intermarriage was rare, and the languages are/were not understandable to each other.
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Here's a very rough map:
Buuut it probably belongs in the upcoming South/Central Africa feedback.
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Either this, or just "chiefdom" for county and and "high chiefdom" for duchy, like in CK3. Ideally, of course, there should be local flavour for tribal titles where applicable.
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FYI there were in fact thoughts about changing the Monarchy's capital to Budapest, even if it never happened because of the underdtandable rivalry between the cities
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I think this is fine, I'd even be open to larger regional language groups with dialects to simulate the dialect continuum
I think my last posts from the original thread are still valid as the suggestions I made haven't got incorporated yet (and don’t seem to be refused) but I want to just comment on the recent changes as well.
Religions:
I disagree with the religious groupings you created in Nigeria - in particular, that of Isese. Isese is an organized religion that was born from the Yoruba. It has a scripture, a thorough theological-philosophical content that has strong opinions on society, individual conduct and personal self-realization and has generally been a very organized religion. It is a religion that held a certain appeal beyond the Yoruba, crossing over into the Ewe-Ajan-Fon people to influence and help shape Vodun, and in the Edo people. And it (and the influenced Vodun) spread through the slave trade, becoming a world religion which has crossed national and racial lines and become the most popular religion from Africa in the world, having millions of adherents across various countries.
Unfortunately, currently, Isese is treated as a ‘catch-all term’ for vaguely related traditional religions rather than the distinct religion it is. And it incorporates under its umbrella religious traditions that have nothing to do with its theology or only vaguely resemble it. I would suggest changing this.
Isese does share a lot with the neighbouring religions- belief in intercession spirits, ancestor cults, masquerades of the dead, divinations and even names of deities. But it shares this even with religions that were given separate religious groups like the Igbo and the Ijaw. It’d be ridiculous to have a single religion encompassing everything in Nigeria. More importantly, Isese is already a term for a defined religion, not a generic term for traditions.
Isese should encompass Yoruba culture, and possibly could cross over into Edo and the Vodun religion (though I personally like the idea of Vodun being separate but making Vodun part of it at least makes sense). It should not be present in any other ethnic group.
Locations:
A lot of locations still feel like they are in the wrong place and with labels that shouldn’t be there. I feel like Warri, for example, should be slightly to the north where it is based now. I could be completely wrong on this account, however.
Cultures:
Markets
I mentioned earlier that Benin should not be a market. Ife should be a market.
Trade Goods
I mentioned in the last thread but reiterating in light of the discussion regarding peppers. I would advocate for:
Languages
Not really much to say other than the more granular and specific to the cultures you make the languages, the better it is. A single Volta-Niger language is pretty crazy, that’s a language family that has been divided for thousands of years. Even if you compromise and represent Yoruba and Igala as both speaking Yoruboid or make Yoruba, Edo, Igala and Igbo all speak a Defoid language, it is preferable.
Religions:
I disagree with the religious groupings you created in Nigeria - in particular, that of Isese. Isese is an organized religion that was born from the Yoruba. It has a scripture, a thorough theological-philosophical content that has strong opinions on society, individual conduct and personal self-realization and has generally been a very organized religion. It is a religion that held a certain appeal beyond the Yoruba, crossing over into the Ewe-Ajan-Fon people to influence and help shape Vodun, and in the Edo people. And it (and the influenced Vodun) spread through the slave trade, becoming a world religion which has crossed national and racial lines and become the most popular religion from Africa in the world, having millions of adherents across various countries.
Unfortunately, currently, Isese is treated as a ‘catch-all term’ for vaguely related traditional religions rather than the distinct religion it is. And it incorporates under its umbrella religious traditions that have nothing to do with its theology or only vaguely resemble it. I would suggest changing this.
Isese does share a lot with the neighbouring religions- belief in intercession spirits, ancestor cults, masquerades of the dead, divinations and even names of deities. But it shares this even with religions that were given separate religious groups like the Igbo and the Ijaw. It’d be ridiculous to have a single religion encompassing everything in Nigeria. More importantly, Isese is already a term for a defined religion, not a generic term for traditions.
Isese should encompass Yoruba culture, and possibly could cross over into Edo and the Vodun religion (though I personally like the idea of Vodun being separate but making Vodun part of it at least makes sense). It should not be present in any other ethnic group.
- The Nupe should not be Isese as they have an entirely different religious tradition. The Nupe not only did not subscribe to the political extension of Isese, their religion was primarily focused on a God known as Soko that, while distant, was directly responsible for all phenomena and occurrences in the world and not as untouchable as the creator gods in neighbouring religions. Soko could manifest all things and Nupe directly addressed Soko rather than necessarily use intermediary deities.
- I would argue Nupe should have their own religion, called either ‘Nupe’ or named after the chief god ‘Soko’.
- The Bariba should not be Iseseas they had very different practices and customs. There was overlap in aspects of Bariba and Yoruba religion - like most Nigerian religions. However, Bariba differed in their practices, and did not share the conclusions of Ife theology or its rituals and scriptures. The Bariba share just as much with the Mossi, and they have a strong interchange in regards to ancestor worship and respect familial rites with the Mossi.
- I would argue for the Bariba either having their own religion or as a compromise having the Mossi religion. The way the Mossi religion is depicted - through their ancestral rites (the way of the ancestors, the religion is called) is a more abstract and fitting way to reference Bariba religion, rather erroneously apply Isese onto them.
- The Igala religion, despite superficially similar, was quite differentfrom the Isese. The cult of ẹbọ in Igala, which in a rudimentary way resembles the cult of orisha among the Yoruba, occupies a much more marginal place in Igala religion than the orisha cults do in the Yoruba system of belief. Ancestors and the earth cults play a more direct and central role in Igala than in Yoruba, with a strong practice of ancestor worship that isn’t really prevalent among the Yoruba.
- In this, the Igala are much more similar to the Idoma, who also had a very strong ancestor cult. There is an argument perhaps that there is a stronger case to make the Idoma and Igala share a separate religion than the current setup.
Locations:
A lot of locations still feel like they are in the wrong place and with labels that shouldn’t be there. I feel like Warri, for example, should be slightly to the north where it is based now. I could be completely wrong on this account, however.
Cultures:
- Map is missing the Itsekiri people near the Delta. They were the founders of the Warri Kingdom and even prior to the kingdom, had already a polity known as Ode-Itsekiri. Please do not group them in with the Yoruba, they speak distantly related language to them but are not Yoruba.
- The Ebira/Egbira people should be represented separately from the Nupe. They had a different culture and history, and a different state (Opanda). The language they speak is more distant to Nupe than the Gbayi/Gwari language of the Gbari people.
- The Benue and Bantoid languages are organized on the map in a way that seems to correspond to the 20th-21st century because of the Tiv migration. The Tiv had not yet migrated in 1337 meaning there should be a different setup, see below.
- A united Benue culture does not make sense due to the different cultures, unintelligible languages but most importantly, the different political history of the Benue. Split the “Benue” languages into:
- Jukun, encompassing all Jukunoid speakers. Jukun should extend further in some directions than Benue currently does, see my incomplete proposal in the other thread.
- Plateau/Atyap (can be named either Atyap, Berom or Tarok).
- Kainji (can be named Kambari after the most relevant Kainji group), which should be located to the west of where nowadays Lake Kainji is (Lake Kainji did not exist back then as you probably know), as a majority but also have minorities spread (see my post).
- Bantoid should be split anyway you like but the Ibibio/Cross River culture needs to be represented separately. The Ejagham/Ekoid culture should ideally also be represented separately. These two have a whole history and political expression that differentiates them from a lot of other cultures to their east.
- Bantoid should not extend northwest like it does- I assume you are trying to represent the Tiv here, but as mentioned, the Tiv had not yet migrated into that area in 1337.
Markets
I mentioned earlier that Benin should not be a market. Ife should be a market.
Trade Goods
I mentioned in the last thread but reiterating in light of the discussion regarding peppers. I would advocate for:
- Peppers being peppers rather than saffron and being small enough in quantity to avoid competing with the Indian supply.
- Medicaments being used to represent kola nuts.
- Representing both palm oil and Raffia fiber with Fiber Crops and then having a unique PM that transforms Fiber Crops into Wine to simultaneously represent both Palm Wine and Raffia Wine. The alternative is to represent palm oil with Medicaments and then have a PM that allows making Wine from Medicaments.
- No Livestock in the forest belt please.
- And all the other mentions I made in the other thread - more cotton, more dye, changed location of ivory, salt in the delta, copper in Mali, lead in the Benue Trough, etc.
Languages
Not really much to say other than the more granular and specific to the cultures you make the languages, the better it is. A single Volta-Niger language is pretty crazy, that’s a language family that has been divided for thousands of years. Even if you compromise and represent Yoruba and Igala as both speaking Yoruboid or make Yoruba, Edo, Igala and Igbo all speak a Defoid language, it is preferable.
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Apart from Tunjur, that I suggested in an earlier post here there are more kingdoms missing in West Africa.
The Jukun/Kwararafa is missing as a tag on the map.
The city state of Isoma-bou, led by the Ijaw people. Located at the coast, somewhat south of Benin city, and bordering Nri to the north-east.
The Tuareg city state of Takedda
The Allada kingdom, located west of Ijebu, in modern day Benin country.
Adansi state. Located in Ghana, somewhat North-West of Mankessim, and bordering Bonoman in the north. A possible formable for that area could be Ashanti/Asante
Mali vassal state, Kombo, in Gambia.
Sine kingdom, also somewhat in that corner.
Mali vassal state of Takrur
Gajaaga/Galam. A tributary/vassal state of Mali
Waalo kingdom. Somewhat North of Kombo and Sine
Jukun/Kwararafa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukun_people_(West_Africa)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwararafa_Confederacy
Isoma-bou:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijaw_people
Takedda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takedda
Allada:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Ardra
Adansi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adansi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asante_Empire
Kombo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kombo
Sine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sine
Takrur:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takrur
Gajaaga:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajaaga
Waalo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waalo
The Jukun/Kwararafa is missing as a tag on the map.
The city state of Isoma-bou, led by the Ijaw people. Located at the coast, somewhat south of Benin city, and bordering Nri to the north-east.
The Tuareg city state of Takedda
The Allada kingdom, located west of Ijebu, in modern day Benin country.
Adansi state. Located in Ghana, somewhat North-West of Mankessim, and bordering Bonoman in the north. A possible formable for that area could be Ashanti/Asante
Mali vassal state, Kombo, in Gambia.
Sine kingdom, also somewhat in that corner.
Mali vassal state of Takrur
Gajaaga/Galam. A tributary/vassal state of Mali
Waalo kingdom. Somewhat North of Kombo and Sine
Jukun/Kwararafa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jukun_people_(West_Africa)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwararafa_Confederacy
Isoma-bou:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijaw_people
Takedda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takedda
Allada:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Ardra
Adansi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adansi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asante_Empire
Kombo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kombo
Sine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sine
Takrur:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takrur
Gajaaga:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajaaga
Waalo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waalo
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There was an embargo used to explain the Alps market regions.
I am wondering if this is a lack of Maritime Presence at bootup. Where it will take some time for it to settle. Personally I think they need to let some time run (but not allow anyone to do anything) to see where these dynamic values settle and then set them as the starting state. I also think they need to be included in the save so we don't get just loaded anomalies/exploits.
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Yeah, probably. A lot of these are already several cultures large, though.
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I would be surprised if the market simulation isn't run for a while during the loading screen when you start a new game, to get starting market conditions that make sense. That's what games like that typically do. And there's no need to expose that to the player.
It's weird because the culture map is essentially the same as the language map in Nigeria. They had the right answer (except naming Ibibio/Efik culture Bantoid)
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Will be possible for some countires to go backward from country to tribe? I think this should be a thing for some regions where some country, empire, culture, civilization is in decline like those in Missisipi River, Mayans, somalian Sultanates or many states from Africa and Indonesia.
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Can't think of any examples in Africa to be honest. It doesn't apply to the Maya in this period, the infamous decline already happened centuries ago most of them were still state societies just not quite as large scale as during the classic - the late post classic Maya had plenty of large towns and expansive states. The Maya who were outside of state structures already were in 1337, there's not really any further deterioration. You're absolutely right about the Mississippians though, and it also would apply to some of the Amazonian societies if they are included.
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