Tinto Maps #2 Iberia Feedback

[Pavía]

Nobody expects the Spanish Iberian Inquisition map review! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope Johan, and nice red Tinto uniforms!

Thanks to your feedback, we've been able to make several changes; I'll let the log speak for itself:

Spoiler: List of changes

Locations added:

• Aragon (22)
  • Ansó
  • Sos
  • Almudévar
  • Monzón
  • Ariza
  • Cariñena
  • Valderrobres
  • Alfambra
  • Mora
  • Camprodon
  • Berga
  • Agramunt
  • Tárrega
  • Sant-Feliu
  • Terrassa
  • Sitges
  • Montblanc
  • Ares del Maestre
  • Gandía
  • Alcoy
  • Alicante
  • Elche
• Castile (62)
  • Noya
  • Mellid
  • Lalin
  • Ribadavia
  • Sarria
  • Vivero
  • Cangas
  • Potes
  • Durango
  • Oñate
  • San Sebastián
  • Añana
  • Salvatierra
  • Miranda de Ebro
  • Najera
  • Yanguas
  • Alcañices
  • Alba de Aliste
  • Tordesillas
  • Yecla de Yeltes
  • San Felices
  • Matilla de Caños
  • Villatoro
  • Las Navas
  • Pedraza
  • Saldaña
  • Villadiego
  • Santo Domingo de Silos
  • Calatañazor
  • Berlanga
  • Valverde
  • Brozas
  • Arroyo
  • Jaraicejo
  • Herrera
  • Montánchez
  • Albuquerque
  • Zalamena
  • Barcarrota
  • Villanueva del Fresno
  • Azuaga
  • Cobeta
  • Pareja
  • Uclés
  • Torralba
  • Cañete
  • Belmonte
  • El Puente del Arzobispo
  • Navalucillos
  • Consuegra
  • Villarobledo
  • Alhambra
  • Lezuza
  • Jumilla
  • Caravaca
  • Espiel
  • Jódar
  • Cazorla
  • Coria del Río
  • Olvera
  • Medina-Sidonia
  • Tarifa
• Granada (3)
  • Huéscar
  • Vélez-Rubio
  • Gérgal
• Mallorca (2)
  • Conflent
  • Pollensa
• Navarra (2)
  • Viana
  • Roncesvalles
• Portugal (29)
  • Valença
  • Braga
  • Montealegre
  • Aguiar
  • Mirandela
  • Macedo de Cavaleiros
  • Meda
  • Feira
  • Besteiros
  • Seia
  • Covilhã
  • Sabugal
  • Figueira da Foz
  • Proença-a-Nova
  • Idanha
  • Alcobaça
  • Torres Novas
  • Ponte de Sor
  • Salvaterra
  • Mora
  • Montemor
  • Estremoz
  • Vila Viçosa
  • Portel
  • Alvito
  • Alvalade
  • Serpa
  • Mértola
  • Silves
• Added Several Wastelands
• Implemented (when possible) all the feedback provided by the community, both for old and new locations, including:
  • Culture
  • Religion
  • Raw Goods
  • Topography
  • Vegetation
  • Climate
  • Population Data

And also the maps. I'm not re-uploading all of them, but the most relevant ones, where the changes are more noticeable. E.g., the changes in cultures are more evident than the changes in religions, so I'll just post the first one. Another one that I won't be posting is the climate one, mainly because we're taking a look at this proposal, so there might be further changes, which will share in due time.

Locations:

We haven't added yet the dynamic naming variants, that's why we've kept some of the old ones (e.g. Játiva instead of Xátiva), but we've progressed on how the system works, and we've taken notes of all of your suggestions regarding this topic, which will implement quite soon.

Provinces:

Topography and Vegetation:

Cultures:

While taking this screenshot, I found a bug regarding how and where the stripes of cultural minorities appear. E.g., Vitoria has a similar amount of Castilian population as the location to its south, Añana, but the stripes don't appear in the later. This has already been reported, but take into account that this means that not all the locations have completely accurate graphical representations.

Raw Materials:

Dynasties (current version/possible alternative version with custom localization):

Population:

We will follow this thread, in order to gather further feedback about the review; although the next post of this type will be the one for France. We don't have a fixed weekly date for it, as each map review takes a different amount of time, and we have other tasks that we're working on in parallel (like adding the Middle Eastern minorities); so these will be randomly appearing posts, at least for a while.

Cheers! See you on Friday, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the British Isles!

 

[Pavía]

Why do goods in castile look lighter?

Weird map mode behavior; there isn't any gameplay difference. I'll just take a better screenshot for the post.

 

[Pavía]

Very nice! What are the dark blue and light blue stripes in the Basque Country in the culture map?

Light blue is Gascon pops (in Pamplona), and dark blue is Frencien pops (in Estella).

 

[Pavía]

Can we get a Dynasty Map for Iberia now? I know its visible on the main Characters TT but Id like a zoomed in one

As per this request, this is the current Dynasty map:

Although there's some work that we want to do regarding dynamic localization for different branches, making it look more like this (this is a quick edit I made, not an implemented version, please take that into account):

(Yes, I also added Barcelona in this version; as I mentioned in Tinto Talks, we're currently considering about keeping that dynasty as 'Aragó/Aragón', changing it to 'Barcelona', or maybe to Aragó/Aragón i/y Barcelona).

 

[Pavía]

Great changes.

Also i miss Olivenza and would change Chinchilla or Villena by Almansa.

Almansa is closer to Villena, it belonged to its lordship, and was less populated; that's why it doesn't have a location itself.

 

[Pavía]

What are the blue stripes in Aragon. Looks like they are in Barcelona and Ariza

Sephardi minorities.

 

[Pavía]

I am once again asking where you get info for the population for 1337 era?

We use different sources. We start with the Atlas of World Population History, by C. McEvedy and R. Jones, which is not the latest and fanciest source, but it's consistent worldwide in its numbers and deviations, and gives us base numbers to start working on. We tweak those numbers with regional sources of good quality when available; e.g., we have a reliable census of the Yuán age for China that we have used (the best source available for any region at the start of the game). Apart from that, we have a GIS layer with historical population density data, which we then use to divide the population per location. From that, we add the minorities, which may also come from very different sources, and make final adjustments to the numbers.

At the end of the day, the base of the system is to portray a consistent population for the whole world in 1337.

 

[Pavía]

How many layers of de Valois are you on
View attachment 1146791

Also why is the Navarra dynasty Capet but all the other Capet branches are named different? Does the game represent the fact that they're all the same dynasty for succession? The Bourbon dynasty came from the Navarran branch

1. Bug
2. WIP

 

[Pavía]

What's up with the gold in this wasteland tile? I assume it's just a graphical glitch but there's not any province adjacent to the wasteland or anything that actually has gold, so I wonder where that came from.
View attachment 1146793

Another bug (what a morning, lol).

 

[Pavía]

Why Catalan and Aragonese provinces are in Castilian? Is it WIP?

Yes, as I've repeated a few times at this point, take all the location names as WIP.

 

[Pavía]

Question: What is the estimated Jewish population for the region at the moment at the moment?

Less than 5% of the population. I think that we have added around 1.5%-2%, but numbers may vary between different sources.

 

[Pavía]

Still missing Borja, sad. Can we see the population map? It'd be interesting to see if Zaragoza is now bigger in comparison to its surroundings (or rather, the surroundings with less population compared to Zaragoza).

Also, I think I understood from the French map that in the end you will go with "regional" location names, rather than actual cities/towns/villages? Mentioning because of Elizondo, Aínsa, Benabarre, etc. It would be a bit weird that France went with provincial names, but the peninsula went with individual location names.

Cities/towns/villages for locations, regional names for provinces (if possible). The Iberian Peninsula is a bit different compared to, let's say, France or England, because a lot of historical provinces just had the name of its capital. E.g.: Valladolid.

 

[Pavía]

Can you show us the new Population map or is that still under review ?

edit: Also great work, thanks so much for doing this!

Still missing Borja, sad. Can we see the population map? It'd be interesting to see if Zaragoza is now bigger in comparison to its surroundings (or rather, the surroundings with less population compared to Zaragoza).

Also, updated pops (I was just fixing a different thing, that's why it has taken a while):

Zaragoza is now the most populated location in Aragon.

 

[Pavía]

I'd like to see the climate map.

Not many changes, just a few tweaks:

Disclaimer, the Cold Arid/Mediterranean discussion on the Mediterranean coast of Valencia is something we're aware of, but as we're making a more thorough review of the climates (as I mentioned in the main post), it's something that we will tackle later.

 

[Pavía]

How can they defend the name Alicante when there were no Castilians in Alacant...

That's not really true, as it was part of the lands that were reserved for Castile in the Treaty of Almizra, so it was conquered in 1248, King Alfonso X granted the Fuero Real to the town in August of 1252, and started to settle Castilians in it. It was only after the Múdejar Rebellion of 1264-66 that James I of Aragon, who had helped to defeat it (as Alfonso X was his son-in-law), started relocating Catalan settlers to the area. That's why in Project Caesar, Alicante/Alacant, Elche/Elx, and Orihuela/Oriola have a Catalan majority and a Castilian minority.

In any case, the locations will have dynamic names for both languages.

 

[Pavía]

I would like to thank the PDX Tinto team for really taking the time to read our comments of suggestion and feedback and implementing them. For those who feel like their opinions don't matter, or that Tinto doesn't care, I'd like to share with you this post of mine: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-2-17th-of-may-2024.1678273/post-29635560

And now I'll share the country location percentages updated as per the location mapmode you see in this post:

Total locations - 425 (100%)
Castile - 245 (57.64%)
Aragon - 72 (16.94%)
Portugal - 67 (15.76%)
Granada - 18 (4.23%)
Navarra - 10 (2.35%)
Mallorca - 8 (1.88%)
Morocco - 4 (0.94%)
Andorra - 1 (0.23%)

Your feedback matters! Please share and contribute. Together we will make this the best GSG game ever.

Thanks for your kind words, the community feedback is really appreciated (and valuable!), indeed.

 

[Pavía]

What happened to the gold in La Mancha?

Back in time, it was portraying the Mercury mine at Almadén. Now that we have that resource, the gold is gone.

 

[Pavía]

there's a location with no name just south of Badajoz
View attachment 1146822

It's Jerez de los Caballeros:

 

[Pavía]

Wow, incredible work! I could not even dream of adding that many new locations!

A couple of quick points of feedback about the locations I know best:

First, the location name of Yanguas is wrong, since Yanguas is way more to the South to the other side of the Iberic System Mountains in the Soria location of the game. Instead, Yanguas location, should be renamed to Arnedo, a village conquered by the Kingdom of Navarra to the Muslims in the 10th century and then granted its "Fuero".​

​

And second, Nájera location should extend South as I have drawn down below, to connect to the location number 5 (I cannot read its name). If you want to go from Logroño location to the Castilian plateau, let's say Lerma (or location number 5) thought the Najerilla river valley, you have to pass yes or yes trough Nájera, there is no other way because of rough terrain, mountains, etc. That's the reason I suggest this change. I can prove this more in deep if needed.​

In the images down below I draw in red the location shapes (only ones that change are number 1 and 2) and in green I position the urban villages/cities of their respective location.

1. Nájera (changed shape to connect to location number 5).
2. Logroño.
3. Arnedo (changed name from Yanguas).
4. Calahorra.
5. I cannot read its name (too small). What is it?

View attachment 1146819
View attachment 1146820

Very happy you have implemented lots and lots of feedback!

By the way, in the change log mentions that "several wastelands have been added", but I cannot recall any new ones?

Edit: Incredible you have added Miranda de Ebro and Viana! Important locations in those times! Amazing!

I'll just change Yanguas to Arnedo, you're right that it's more fitting. We'll also take a look at the connection with Santo Domingo de Silos (that's the little that can't be read). Thanks!

 

[Pavía]

What is up with the big 20 near Andorra? I assume a visual bug?

Yes, it's a bug.