Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

[ArVass]

I think Galicia-Volhynia should be able to become a kingdom if it becomes independent from Golden Horde. It's rulers sometimes called themselves kings and country kingdom but not consistently which suggests present but weak royal tradition. According to Ukrainian historian Myroslav Voloshchuk Galicia-Volhynia status as kingdom was never fully instutionalized and Mongol factor was very important reason. To accept title of a king meant (at least formally) to subordinate to Papacy, which ( from Khan's point of view) was violation of his rights as supreme suzerain of this territory. That's why coronation of Daniel as king of Ruthenia immediately provoked war with mongols.

Assuming International Organizations can have an effect on the name, rank and flavourization of a tag, there are three IOs playing here:
- the Tatar Yoke IO (confirmed)
- the Catholic Church IO (confirmed in a previous TT)
- the Personal Union of Galicia and Volhynia IO (PUs have been confirmed to be a type of IO)

I'm guessing the interactions of these three could have an impact on the flavourization of a certain monarch and country.

 

[Miś Wojtek]

Not really – Silesian and German minority organizations (in)famously don't trust each other, with the latter perceiving Silesian nationality as a tool to Polonize local Germans (an ironic mirror of how Poles perceive it as a tool to Germanize Poles).

What's your "not really" referring to?

 

[Miś Wojtek]

Lechitic is a wider term than Polish, it includes Kashubian, Polabian and a number of other extinct languages. Polish includes only dialects of Polish (here: Greater Polish, Lesser Polish, Mazovian, Silesian).

I mean again, I doubt any Poles would care if it got changed to "Lechitic". There are still plenty of nations in this world where Poland is called Lechistan, Lenkija or the similar.

 

[Miś Wojtek]

I definitely think the areas should be changed to look like this. Pomerelia is optional. The province changes are on the other hand for the most part very good.

View attachment 1182826

Polesia a bit too long, is it not?

 

[Slime99]

I have no clue how you got Southern Estonian so wrong on your map. Especially you posted a source that correctly shows it's extent. Fellin (modern day Viljandi) should not be Southern Estonian nor should Southern Estonian extend to Baltic coast, because neither of those 2 things have been true. Also, they shouldn't extend futher south than Marienburg (Livonian Order's exclave).. especially because they migrated soutward way later than the game start.

But especially bad is your suggestion for the name.. Tarbatu? What?? It's like calling all Romance languages French. Tarbatu is an old name for Tartu (or Tarto) that is only a small part of Southern Estonian. Way better name is "Ugala" or "Ugalian" that is used as a name for an hypothetical language that excisted before Southern Estonian divided into 4 (but after Lutsi language divided from Southern Estonian) and is combination of Ugandi and Sakala (2 old tribes that excisted in those areas).

I agree on the name. However Viljandi was part of ancient Sakala so I think it should be South Estonian, maybe with a North Estonian minority to represent Nurmekund. Now Pietavala and Vilaka correspond to Adzele, which had a South Estonian population too alongside the Latgalians. As for the coastline I agree that is dubious, so I think it should be mixed instead with Livs, North and South Estonians.

 

[PonuryWojtek]

Few corrections:
Rawa and Czersk were not vassals of Bohemia (Płock was for the life of the duke).
Kuyavia and Dobrzyń were not occupied by TO at the start of the game. Also, while temporarily occupied during the war, they were not owned or vassalised by TO before or after finish of the war, so transferring ownership wouldn't make sense here.

TO did occupy those lands since 1329-1332. I suggested direct ownership in lieu of not having an ongoing war at the start of the game akin to France/England situation in EU4. So within context of game mechanics -if war then just occupied, if no war then directly owned by TO or even by imagined vassal state of Kujawien or Kuyavia (to represent the occupational nature of this land ownership). Unless you want to make smth like EU4's equivalent of 100 devastation in those areas to symbolise TO occupation while keeping the area owned by Poland and Inowrocław.
As for the Masovian duchies, yes you are right. Just didn't bother with specifying. Main point was they should not be Polish vassals.

Relevant parts from Wikipedia articles: King Casimir III regained Kuyavia and Dobrzyń Land, which had been conquered by the Teutonic Order between 1329 and 1332.: During the Polish–Teutonic War of 1326–1332, the forces of the Order's State occupied Dobrzyń Land, which however was relinquished to the Kingdom of Poland in the 1343 Treaty of Kalisz.; The duchy [red. Kuyavia] was devastated during the Polish–Teutonic War of 1326–32, culminating in the 1331 Battle of Płowce, but was finally restored to Poland by the Teutonic Knights in the 1343 Treaty of Kalisz.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

What's your "not really" referring to?

To the assumption about Germans being the ones pushing for Silesian nationality. That's not the case for the German minority organizations I know of, especially if we take into account that acknowledging Silesians as a national minority would strip Germans from being Poland's most numerous minority group.

Silesian nationalist movement nowadays is propagated primarily by Silesian locals themselves and by Poles from different areas who are friendly towards it.

 

[Pavía]

So Galicia and Volhynia are treated as Principalities when separate, but as a Kingdom when together. Is there any such special flavour given to the ruler of the Galicia-Volhynia (/Kingdom of Ruthenia, a title granted by the Pope) personal union IO?

Ruthenia is a formable kingdom, and there will be flavour for it.

 

[A_Cruel]

Ruthenia is a formable kingdom, and there will be flavour for it.

Is it enough to have Galicia and Volhynia and be independent (No yoke) to form it?

And one more. As you split ruthenian culture into regional ones, are there going to be unification decision?

Also, as I wrote in my post in initial version of this region's map's thread. I presume I wrote it too late Drohobych trade good should be salt 100%. It's salt plant had confirmed operational history from 1242 till now.

 

[Pollllo]

Is there a mapmode for personal unions, vassals and such for a better outlook in Silesia for example?

 

[matfer13]

Ruthenia is a formable kingdom, and there will be flavour for it.

Can you units the 2 cultures from the start? I feel like that after centuries of being under the same country(Galicia-Volhynia) and even more under the same overlord(Kievan Rus) has made them pretty similar in terms of language and culture

 

[matfer13]

- the Personal Union of Galicia and Volhynia IO (PUs have been confirmed to be a type of IO)

Even though Pavia said it I'm not sonsure about this one since they were not ruled by the same person if you check online

 

[ArVass]

Ruthenia is a formable kingdom, and there will be flavour for it.

Sure, but what about the Kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia? They were already referred to as one Kingdom very often by the time of the start date

Can you units the 2 cultures from the start? I feel like that after centuries of being under the same country(Galicia-Volhynia) and even more under the same overlord(Kievan Rus) has made them pretty similar in terms of language and culture

I'm skeptical that they even were so very different to begin with but what do I know

 

[Treefoil]

Any idea when we will see the rest of Ukraine? (Like the European Steppe, Black Sea, & the Crimea is what i mean)

 

[matfer13]

I'm skeptical that they even were so very different to begin with but what do I know

well all the east salvic culture were pretty similar already by then considering all the people share a common cultural, religious and political origin since the 9th century it was only with the arrival of the mongols that the area started to be influenced by external factors. By 1337 it makes sence to have some regional variaties in the language and customs but not these many in my opinion

 

[Wealthy_Communist]

The Latvians in Lithuania are supposed to be Semigallians. While perfectly they should be a culture of their own, it's not that much of a problem, if they're merged with Latvians in 1337 already, because they are already in the proccess of being assimilated.

Also, Latvians=Latgalians.

Yeah heard that inland eastern Latvia is the birth place of modern Latvians not the Germanic colonized coastal areas by Riga. The devs need to change Latvians to Latgalians and maybe give later event for Latvians, and Aukštaitians to Lithuanians. I mean Lithuanian has 100% consistency from start date to 19th century. It's an old documented nation like the Armenians.

 

[A_Cruel]

Can you units the 2 cultures from the start? I feel like that after centuries of being under the same country(Galicia-Volhynia) and even more under the same overlord(Kievan Rus) has made them pretty similar in terms of language and culture

There are 2 sides to this coin (that's for the game start time)
Pros:
1. Religion: in both is the same, just different diocese in Metropolitan
2. Language: nobility's is the same, folk dialects differ slightly. Customs are similar but not the same.
Cons:
1. In early 13th century Halychyna and Volhynia were 2 different Grand Principalities ruled by 2 different branches of Rurikids: Halychyna by Rostyslavych's and Volhynia by branch of Monomakhids. Danylo's father Roman, took over Halychyna in power struggle following Rostyslavych dynasty being weakened/heirless/battling their own nobility. And that was fueled even more with their own clash with Halychyna nobles which lasted... Volhynia on the contrary always was dynasties loyal foothold. Picture here is almost as with Normandy and England, if we'd remove cultural differences.
That's why nobilities of two were somewhat mixed but, by no means, could be counted as part of single entity.
Probably if they had hundred more years under same scepter- then yes. So, union solution looks most correct in game.
As for Ruthenian crown - imo most correct unification decision would've been having control of any 2 'meta regions' out of
- Halychyna
- Volhynia
- Chernihiv
- Smolensk
- Some 'white ruthenia ' area
+ owning Kyiv area.
Above would've been sufficient to claim a crown (like it was in RL)

 

[SafS.99]

Why is the Carpathian mountains Wastelands so reduced now? It’s so much better to have them be a meaningful barrier for Hungary

 

[matfer13]

There are 2 sides to this coin (that's for the game start time)
Pros:
1. Religion: in both is the same, just different diocese in Metropolitan
2. Language: nobility's is the same, folk dialects differ slightly. Customs are similar but not the same.
Cons:
1. In early 13th century Halychyna and Volhynia were 2 different Grand Principalities ruled by 2 different branches of Rurikids: Halychyna by Rostyslavych's and Volhynia by branch of Monomakhids. Danylo's father Roman, took over Halychyna in power struggle following Rostyslavych dynasty being weakened/heirless/battling their own nobility. And that was fueled even more with their own clash with Halychyna nobles which lasted... Volhynia on the contrary always was dynasties loyal foothold. Picture here is almost as with Normandy and England, if we'd remove cultural differences.
That's why nobilities of two were somewhat mixed but, by no means, could be counted as part of single entity.
Probably if they had hundred more years under same scepter- then yes. So, union solution looks most correct in game.
As for Ruthenian crown - imo most correct unification decision would've been having control of any 2 'meta regions' out of
- Halychyna
- Volhynia
- Chernihiv
- Smolensk
- Some 'white ruthenia ' area
+ owning Kyiv area.
Above would've been sufficient to claim a crown (like it was in RL)

But the common people themselves where practicly the same and the two principalities habe been under the authority of same crown for a few centuries by now, I also don't think the two need to have 2 different cultures from gameplay perspective since the cultural names for the locations and people are gonna be the same and when you united the 2 principalities you don't have to convert the other culture.

 

[A_Cruel]

But the common people themselves where practicly the same and the two principalities habe been under the authority of same crown for a few centuries by now, I also don't think the two need to have 2 different cultures from gameplay perspective since the cultural names for the locations and people are gonna be the same and when you united the 2 principalities you don't have to convert the other culture.

Kind sir. Me and all my ancestry are from the discussed region. So I'd be more than happy to see mighty Halychyna-Volynia ingame.
But.
Yes, common people were almost the same,
but #1 still from different east Slavic tribes.
but #2 common people's will meant nothing (well almost, viche customs still were present these days there) there, only elite's-nobles-boyars (and some clergy ofc) wishes were taken into account (high middle ages, remember)
but #3 elites of Volodymyr and Halych/Lviv were not united, yet. There are recorded complains of Halych nobility and clashes with Danylo and Lev for them granting fiefs in Halychyna to Volhynian boyars.

Some cultural union for kingdom tier would be enough. OR
Dear @Paradox hteractive. As you're introducing 2 concepts: pops and regional cultures - can we get a melting pop mechanic, so that pops of regional culture of same culture group, when lived for some time in a single political entity will start blending into common culture with significantly increased speed? Ideally this should be controllable by player, determining the desired level of merging (f.e. yes burgers and clergy will not blend faster, but only Poles can be szchlachta (like it was IR but religion-wise as well) Adding capital distance modifiers (so if Bohemian king gets a province in Saxony, connected to the mainland ofc it will be faster, for Halychyna getting a province in Volhynia will get them assimilated really fast, but getting, let's say near Danube - significantly slower). And adding an ability to choose smth like 'let them become proper Halychians' or 'Were of common Ruthenian origin'. Wouldn't that be most correct way to handle this?
For entities of Commonwealth size, by the middle of the game this should produce smth like almost integrated nobility, having somewhat integrated burgers and having regional peasantry like it was IR for all nations, that stepped onto the doorstep of Spring of Nations.