historically after Gediminas died Jaunutis suceeded him instead of the eldest son Narimantas(possibly because only pagans could inherit Lithuania and he was orthodox),in PC will that be represented or Narimantas would succeed him classic primogeniture?
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Hi all,
Great work on recent updates, I have a proposition on my own that might contribute
Curently on new shared maps there is a new province under Warsaw "Warszawa" named "Tarczyn".
In my opinion Tarczyn significance wasnt that impactfull in the refgion particullary in his earlier history. It served as a trade post but it influence wasnt major beyond this.
However as Im a person from this region I think there is a other city that has more potential to be historicaly represented.
Here comes my proposition to change this region name to "Błonie"
Błonie is much older settelment with rich history backed to early medival age. Conected with regional Piast dynasty from line of Konrad Mazowiecki
Documented records state existance of city in XI century and gained its city laws in 1338 before Tarczyn
Significance is visible in architecture. In city there is a gothic style church that was built in 1280 way before other buldings of this significance appeared in Tarczyn
Also Błonie has notable historical figgures that were studing at Akademia Krakowska ,,Cracow Academy" for example Mikołaj z Błonia and Maciej z Błonia
Full records says about 22 persons that were studing at Cracow academy and influencing region
Here are my sources : (search in google cus forum doesnt allow links)
muzeumblonie
parafia-blonie
muzeum-ziemi-blonskiej-w-poniatowce-blonie-woj-mazowieckie-malo-znana-historia-podwarszawskiej-miejscowosci
And for contrast I add history of Tarczyn:
tarczyn.
Hope this small contribution to the regional history can be considered in discussion
Thanks everyone
Great work on recent updates, I have a proposition on my own that might contribute
Curently on new shared maps there is a new province under Warsaw "Warszawa" named "Tarczyn".
In my opinion Tarczyn significance wasnt that impactfull in the refgion particullary in his earlier history. It served as a trade post but it influence wasnt major beyond this.
However as Im a person from this region I think there is a other city that has more potential to be historicaly represented.
Here comes my proposition to change this region name to "Błonie"
Błonie is much older settelment with rich history backed to early medival age. Conected with regional Piast dynasty from line of Konrad Mazowiecki
Documented records state existance of city in XI century and gained its city laws in 1338 before Tarczyn
Significance is visible in architecture. In city there is a gothic style church that was built in 1280 way before other buldings of this significance appeared in Tarczyn
Also Błonie has notable historical figgures that were studing at Akademia Krakowska ,,Cracow Academy" for example Mikołaj z Błonia and Maciej z Błonia
Full records says about 22 persons that were studing at Cracow academy and influencing region
Here are my sources : (search in google cus forum doesnt allow links)
muzeumblonie
parafia-blonie
muzeum-ziemi-blonskiej-w-poniatowce-blonie-woj-mazowieckie-malo-znana-historia-podwarszawskiej-miejscowosci
And for contrast I add history of Tarczyn:
tarczyn.
Hope this small contribution to the regional history can be considered in discussion
Thanks everyone
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Lake Peipus should have one or 2 narrows locations. The Battle on the Ice took place less than a century earlier, and while it may not have actually taken place on the icy surface of the lake (and the part about the ice breaking under the Teutonic Knights is definitely a later embellishment), the game should acknowledge its strategic implications. It's a body of water that separates many locations, is deep enough for small watercraft, and freezes during the winter.
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Lets talk about Podlasie region and adjacent locations guys.
First of all, you did very good job with borders and choosing location names. I would choose exactly the same. Especially I like how borders match real borders of ziemie (counties).
I also rather support the idea of division polish culture on smaller ones. When division into lesser polish i greater polish can be little bit controversial (however, there where a two factions in royal court) , mazovian culture was different at time from the others.
This is distribution od surname Mazur (mazur is archaic for mazovian). Its because people in rest of poland saw the difference and gave them such a nicknames, which later became surmanes.
But whats concern me a little bit is an ethnic distribution of the region. I have some suggestions and it would be nice if you would consider them.
First of all I don't think that settlements of Sudovians reach as far south as Bug river. This view is out of date (but still popular among members of my family in Drohiczyn )
Here is a screenshot from the lecture od dr Marcin Engel from Warsaw Museum of Archeology. Biebrza or Narew rivers were probably borders of Sudovia, so north eastern mazovian locations and soutern podlasian shouldn't have sudovian pops at time.
And this region between Great Mazurian Lakes, Biebrza and Niemen rivers should be wery sparsely populated, almost wastelands after mazovian-sudovian and teutonic - sudovian wars in 13 century. This is how prof. Jerzy Wiśniewski described that situation:
Probably adjacent lithuanian locaions like Grodno should have some sudovian refugees-pops. Maybe even south Podlasie too, but they didn't constitue a significant percentage there.
Soutern and especially south-eastern Podlasie should have noticable eastern slavic population. First mention of orthodox church in Mielnik was from 1260 and Drohiczyn was the place where Daniel of Galicia was crowned. Drohiczyn castle was probably founded by Jaroslav the Wise.
I belive that line beetwen Drohiczyn and Suraż was + - a border between this two ethic groups at time. Both towns are in easternmost parts of theirs locations.
Again Jerzy Wiśniewski:
So here are my propositions:
>Łomża province
Sparsely populated in relation to rest of Mazovia. Almost 100% mazovian.
>Sokołów location
Denicity similar to Łomża province. Mostly mazovian but could be siginificant ruthenian population.
>Mielnik
Denicity like two above. Predominantly polesian. Mayby some Mazovians there.
>Drohiczyn
Mayby populated like Lomża and others, mayby less. Majority mazovian, significant polesian minority.
>Bielsk
Less populated than Drohiczyn. Predominantly polesian, some mazovians in the west.
>Suraż, Tykocin, Goniądz
Less populated than above. Suraż 50/50 polesian/mazovian. Goniądz and Tykocin Mostly sudovian with significant mazovian minority.
>Western parts of Mazuria province, Suwałki province, Sokółka, Lipsk, Gródek locations
Sudovians, almost desolated. In southern Mazuria probably mazovian colonisation started.
>Hajnówka
Almost desolated, some Polesians. In my opinion its name should be changed to Białowieża, because there was hunting outpost for lithuanian dukes and Hajno after whom Hajnówka was named lived in 18 century.
All of this lands was sparsely populated due to teutonic/sudovian/lithuanian raids and began to be inhabited at the turn of the 14th and 15th century, after defeat of teutonic knights and formation of polish-lithuanian aliance. First southern Podlasie, then northern Podlasie in the second half of 15th and last Suwalki region and western parts of Grodno region in 16 century.
Results in 16th century looks something like this. From dr Lubicz-Łapiński lecture:
So in my opinion in game we could see ruthenian/mazovian colonisation of Podlasie similar to swedish colonisation of Finland or russian colonisation of pontic steppe.
Im not sure that Grodno was lithuanian at time and "belarussian"-Ruthenians aren't connected to Sudovia. They were the ones who later colonised Gródek, Sokółka and Lipsk locations.
Polesian-Belarussian border looks rather like this:
And it would be nice if Goniądz got wild game as raw material. Its name literaly means (in process of) hunting. Like "Witcher Wild Hunt" is "Wiedźmin Dziki Gon" in polish. Nearby town of Radziłów (eastern part of Wizna location) came from "Radzi Łowom" whats can be translated as "happy with the succesfull hunt" and Knyszyn in Tykocin location was hunt post for polish kings.
Thats all folks, hope it would be helpfull. This is though topic due to lack of sources from 14 century.
Sorry for bad english.
First of all, you did very good job with borders and choosing location names. I would choose exactly the same. Especially I like how borders match real borders of ziemie (counties).
I also rather support the idea of division polish culture on smaller ones. When division into lesser polish i greater polish can be little bit controversial (however, there where a two factions in royal court) , mazovian culture was different at time from the others.
This is distribution od surname Mazur (mazur is archaic for mazovian). Its because people in rest of poland saw the difference and gave them such a nicknames, which later became surmanes.
But whats concern me a little bit is an ethnic distribution of the region. I have some suggestions and it would be nice if you would consider them.
First of all I don't think that settlements of Sudovians reach as far south as Bug river. This view is out of date (but still popular among members of my family in Drohiczyn
)Here is a screenshot from the lecture od dr Marcin Engel from Warsaw Museum of Archeology. Biebrza or Narew rivers were probably borders of Sudovia, so north eastern mazovian locations and soutern podlasian shouldn't have sudovian pops at time.
And this region between Great Mazurian Lakes, Biebrza and Niemen rivers should be wery sparsely populated, almost wastelands after mazovian-sudovian and teutonic - sudovian wars in 13 century. This is how prof. Jerzy Wiśniewski described that situation:
Probably adjacent lithuanian locaions like Grodno should have some sudovian refugees-pops. Maybe even south Podlasie too, but they didn't constitue a significant percentage there.
Soutern and especially south-eastern Podlasie should have noticable eastern slavic population. First mention of orthodox church in Mielnik was from 1260 and Drohiczyn was the place where Daniel of Galicia was crowned. Drohiczyn castle was probably founded by Jaroslav the Wise.
I belive that line beetwen Drohiczyn and Suraż was + - a border between this two ethic groups at time. Both towns are in easternmost parts of theirs locations.
Again Jerzy Wiśniewski:
So here are my propositions:
>Łomża province
Sparsely populated in relation to rest of Mazovia. Almost 100% mazovian.
>Sokołów location
Denicity similar to Łomża province. Mostly mazovian but could be siginificant ruthenian population.
>Mielnik
Denicity like two above. Predominantly polesian. Mayby some Mazovians there.
>Drohiczyn
Mayby populated like Lomża and others, mayby less. Majority mazovian, significant polesian minority.
>Bielsk
Less populated than Drohiczyn. Predominantly polesian, some mazovians in the west.
>Suraż, Tykocin, Goniądz
Less populated than above. Suraż 50/50 polesian/mazovian. Goniądz and Tykocin Mostly sudovian with significant mazovian minority.
>Western parts of Mazuria province, Suwałki province, Sokółka, Lipsk, Gródek locations
Sudovians, almost desolated. In southern Mazuria probably mazovian colonisation started.
>Hajnówka
Almost desolated, some Polesians. In my opinion its name should be changed to Białowieża, because there was hunting outpost for lithuanian dukes and Hajno after whom Hajnówka was named lived in 18 century.
All of this lands was sparsely populated due to teutonic/sudovian/lithuanian raids and began to be inhabited at the turn of the 14th and 15th century, after defeat of teutonic knights and formation of polish-lithuanian aliance. First southern Podlasie, then northern Podlasie in the second half of 15th and last Suwalki region and western parts of Grodno region in 16 century.
Results in 16th century looks something like this. From dr Lubicz-Łapiński lecture:
So in my opinion in game we could see ruthenian/mazovian colonisation of Podlasie similar to swedish colonisation of Finland or russian colonisation of pontic steppe.
Im not sure that Grodno was lithuanian at time and "belarussian"-Ruthenians aren't connected to Sudovia. They were the ones who later colonised Gródek, Sokółka and Lipsk locations.
Polesian-Belarussian border looks rather like this:
And it would be nice if Goniądz got wild game as raw material. Its name literaly means (in process of) hunting. Like "Witcher Wild Hunt" is "Wiedźmin Dziki Gon" in polish. Nearby town of Radziłów (eastern part of Wizna location) came from "Radzi Łowom" whats can be translated as "happy with the succesfull hunt" and Knyszyn in Tykocin location was hunt post for polish kings.
Thats all folks, hope it would be helpfull. This is though topic due to lack of sources from 14 century.
Sorry for bad english.
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Suggestion of The Przeworsk County for a Localisation in between Rzeszów and Przemyśl
Przeworsk (not Rzeszów) used to be even a 2nd higest populated settlement in Przemyśl Lands, not putting it wouldnt make this much sense, Rzeszów Surpassed Przeworsk Population in much later ages.
Zygmunt Gloger gave the following description of Przemyśl Land: "Przemyśl Land was divided into two counties: those of Przemyśl and Przeworsk (...) In 1676, County of Przemyśl had 18 towns and 657 villages, while County of Przeworsk had 18 towns and 221 villages.
The second primary city of the Przemyśl region in the 15th and 16th centuries was Przeworsk, where the weaving industry was well infected.
"Przeworsk people performed about 30 professions grouped into 7 guilds: shoemakers, bakers, tailors, coopers, blacksmiths, blacksmiths (collective), clothiers."
Before it was Conquared by Polish prince Leszek Czarny in 1280 it used to be a town on Laws in Principality of Galicia–Volhynia, the settlement was fully burned down and devastated,
not so far from start of the game in 1340 the localisation of now village of "Perevorsk" was aanexed by Poland during rule of Kazimierz Wielki Przeworsk after being depopulated was settled down in place of local Ruthenians with not only Poles but also Wallahians, Hungarians, other Ruthenians and even with some Tatar prisioners after wars.
by act of 27 November 1387 king Władyslaw Jaggieło gave the settlemet under Tarnowski Noble Family under the Leliwa coat of arms.
in Result Przeworsk regained its City status now on Polish Law in 25 February 1393, year later even Władysław Jaggieło Expanded these rights.
Some time later Przeworsk was also greatly populated with Jews and Germans that migrated in whole area of Subcarpathia during well known periods of history.
in the heyday of his work, he had nearly 1,000 weavers in about 600 workshops. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Jews settled in the city and today they constitute 1/3 of the population.
Sinagogue was built there in 1629.
/Wiki Walddeutsche
/Wiki History of the Jews in Poland
"Thirty years later, in 1582, the chronicler Maciej Stryjkowski wrote that the German peasants settled near Przeworsk, Przemyśl, Sanok, and Jarosław were good farmers:
Germans settled in the Foothills - and in 1355, King Casimir, seeing the lands of the Foothill Rus destroyed and empty for frequent Lithuanian invasions, settled the German nation of people in those lands, who still live in the villages around Przeworsk, Przemyśl, Sanok and Jarosław, and as I myself he saw, there are peculiar hosts." ( Translated from Polish Wikipedia of Walddeutche).
Heres Number of Population of Town during each time in History from a census data:
for comparision theres brief look of Przemyśl lands looked like in the future:
The banner of the Przemyśl-Sanok land from the period of the Battle of Grunwald
In the 16th century, the largest cities were Przemyśl and Jarosław (over 5,000 inhabitants), Stryj (over 4,000 inhabitants), Przeworsk, Drohobycz, Grodzisko, Leżajsk, Rzeszów and Żołynia (over 3,000 inhabitants). According to the royal survey prepared in 1676, there were 32 towns and 980 villages in the entire Przemyśl region.
Sources: Polish and English Wikipedia for Przeworsk, Ziemia Przemyska.
Sorry for using Wikipedia as source but it was my first hand source, i can help finding trusted ones outside of Wikipedia if needed.
Despite being still a small Town, i belive Przeworsk made it's place in History worth enough to be addition into a game, and really interesting one especially in terms of population makeup in region, also on top of everything mentioned before the Przeworsk culture is even named after it, the area was a perfect for early settlement for multiple cases since ages.
Hope this could be usefull
Attachments
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Love it! I appreciate expansive knowledge about this region and sharing it with us.
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Change Ruthenian culture name to Kyivan as it's more local, Ruthenian itself can be the name of the culture group consisting of the Belarusian and Ukrainian cultures
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would be cool to have an event in the 1600s or so where kyivan and some parts of crimean change to ukrainian
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So, looks like the devs have changed Halychia to Halychyna (because they obviuosly cannot use the name Galicia), that is a generic Ukrainian term for the respective area, but it has never been used to refer to the Principality of Halych:
I'm not sure if it is an exact comparison, but it's like if you would have the tag name Veneto instead of Venice/the Republic of Venice. Also similar root, but feels wrong as a country name.
Also it looks quite inconsistent having Halychyna (generic Ukrainian name) and Volhynia (perfectly latinised English name) nearby
Maybe other options can be taken into account:
I'm not sure if it is an exact comparison, but it's like if you would have the tag name Veneto instead of Venice/the Republic of Venice. Also similar root, but feels wrong as a country name.
Also it looks quite inconsistent having Halychyna (generic Ukrainian name) and Volhynia (perfectly latinised English name) nearby
Maybe other options can be taken into account:
- Latinised/English:
- Halych / Volhynia (this would follow the same logic as Kyiv, Chernihiv, all other Ruthenian principalities, where 'Principality of Halych' = 'Halych').
- Halicia / Volhynia (Halicia is a more rare Latin term for the Ukrainian Galicia, but looks like it also exists Wiktionary. In all European maps at least since 1541 (link), the city of Halych is written with the H, so Halicia can be really justified. This way it can be nicely distinguished from the Spanish Galicia). My personal preference.
- Ukrainian:
- Halych / Volyn (just use both in Ukrainian).
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I see Slutsk still around, and no TransylvaniaSo, looks like the devs have changed Halychia to Halychyna (because they obviuosly cannot use the name Galicia), that is a generic Ukrainian term for the respective area, but it has never been used to refer to the Principality of Halych:
View attachment 1203264
I'm not sure if it is an exact comparison, but it's like if you would have the tag name Veneto instead of Venice/the Republic of Venice. Also similar root, but feels wrong as a country name.
Also it looks quite inconsistent having Halychyna (generic Ukrainian name) and Volhynia (perfectly latinised English name) nearby
Maybe other options can be taken into account:
- Latinised/English:
- Halych / Volhynia (this would follow the same logic as Kyiv, Chernihiv, all other Ruthenian principalities, where 'Principality of Halych' = 'Halych').
- Halicia / Volhynia (Halicia is a more rare Latin term for the Ukrainian Galicia, but looks like it also exists Wiktionary. In all European maps at least since 1541 (link), the city of Halych is written with the H, so Halicia can be really justified. This way it can be nicely distinguished from the Spanish Galicia). My personal preference.
- Ukrainian:
- Halych / Volyn (just use both in Ukrainian).
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Because there is also Galicia area, releasable tag, culture in Spain. And unlike the Ukrainian Galicia, it has no other options, it's the same in all languages.
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Will there be an event that makes Prussian become part of the Germanic culture group?
If I understand correctly, Prussian is already Germanic, Pruthenian is the Baltic one.
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View attachment 1202723View attachment 1202724View attachment 1202722
Suggestion of The Przeworsk County for a Localisation in between Rzeszów and Przemyśl
View attachment 1202720View attachment 1202721
Przeworsk (not Rzeszów) used to be even a 2nd higest populated settlement in Przemyśl Lands, not putting it wouldnt make this much sense, Rzeszów Surpassed Przeworsk Population in much later ages.
Zygmunt Gloger gave the following description of Przemyśl Land: "Przemyśl Land was divided into two counties: those of Przemyśl and Przeworsk (...) In 1676, County of Przemyśl had 18 towns and 657 villages, while County of Przeworsk had 18 towns and 221 villages.
The second primary city of the Przemyśl region in the 15th and 16th centuries was Przeworsk, where the weaving industry was well infected.
"Przeworsk people performed about 30 professions grouped into 7 guilds: shoemakers, bakers, tailors, coopers, blacksmiths, blacksmiths (collective), clothiers."
View attachment 1202727
Before it was Conquared by Polish prince Leszek Czarny in 1280 it used to be a town on Laws in Principality of Galicia–Volhynia, the settlement was fully burned down and devastated,
not so far from start of the game in 1340 the localisation of now village of "Perevorsk" was aanexed by Poland during rule of Kazimierz Wielki Przeworsk after being depopulated was settled down in place of local Ruthenians with not only Poles but also Wallahians, Hungarians, other Ruthenians and even with some Tatar prisioners after wars.
by act of 27 November 1387 king Władyslaw Jaggieło gave the settlemet under Tarnowski Noble Family under the Leliwa coat of arms.
in Result Przeworsk regained its City status now on Polish Law in 25 February 1393, year later even Władysław Jaggieło Expanded these rights.
Some time later Przeworsk was also greatly populated with Jews and Germans that migrated in whole area of Subcarpathia during well known periods of history.
in the heyday of his work, he had nearly 1,000 weavers in about 600 workshops. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Jews settled in the city and today they constitute 1/3 of the population.
Sinagogue was built there in 1629.
/Wiki Walddeutsche
/Wiki History of the Jews in Poland
View attachment 1202728View attachment 1202732
"Thirty years later, in 1582, the chronicler Maciej Stryjkowski wrote that the German peasants settled near Przeworsk, Przemyśl, Sanok, and Jarosław were good farmers:
Germans settled in the Foothills - and in 1355, King Casimir, seeing the lands of the Foothill Rus destroyed and empty for frequent Lithuanian invasions, settled the German nation of people in those lands, who still live in the villages around Przeworsk, Przemyśl, Sanok and Jarosław, and as I myself he saw, there are peculiar hosts." ( Translated from Polish Wikipedia of Walddeutche).
Heres Number of Population of Town during each time in History from a census data:
View attachment 1202725
for comparision theres brief look of Przemyśl lands looked like in the future:
The banner of the Przemyśl-Sanok land from the period of the Battle of Grunwald
In the 16th century, the largest cities were Przemyśl and Jarosław (over 5,000 inhabitants), Stryj (over 4,000 inhabitants), Przeworsk, Drohobycz, Grodzisko, Leżajsk, Rzeszów and Żołynia (over 3,000 inhabitants). According to the royal survey prepared in 1676, there were 32 towns and 980 villages in the entire Przemyśl region.
Sources: Polish and English Wikipedia for Przeworsk, Ziemia Przemyska.
Sorry for using Wikipedia as source but it was my first hand source, i can help finding trusted ones outside of Wikipedia if needed.
Despite being still a small Town, i belive Przeworsk made it's place in History worth enough to be addition into a game, and really interesting one especially in terms of population makeup in region, also on top of everything mentioned before the Przeworsk culture is even named after it, the area was a perfect for early settlement for multiple cases since ages.
Hope this could be usefull
I ve just noticed that on uppdated map, Jarosław allredy has a place on map in game, to sharp this region better i propose shapes of locations that looks something bit more similar to this (Esspecially the line of Rzeszów-Łańcut-Przeworsk-Jarosław-Przemyśl); it is similar to actual powiat shapes from all historical periods, fits geographically (to the height map and rivers).
With each location i offer my help (if needed), i can go as far as visiting local administration to get help with historical sources from there ; P.
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would there be an event in the late 1500s that will change Krasnystaw name into Zamość? as the latter gained importance after its establishment
I'm not sure its necessary to make two separate culture groups, one for south-eastern and another for north-eastern ruthenians. As far as I know then there was a dialect continuum from Carpathian Mountains to Pomoriye.
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