Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback

[Rayski]

The population of Lithuania Minor is called "mažlietuviai" (mažas - little), this really does sound like an insult?

I presume it may sound slightly insulting, as it's simply gramatically incorrect. A person living in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) is called Wielkopolanin, not Wielkopolak. "Wielkopolak" sounds kind of like someone would deliberately use incorrect form in an attempt to refer to a person living in Wielkopolska in a slightly contemptuous way.

Anyway, greater / lesser is not a problem, it sounds absolutely natural and there is no need for any changes to the current setup.

 

[Sir of Dark]

@Pavía

#1
I think, that in Łęczyca (this smaller one in Łęczyca) should be Marsh/Wetlands as terrain. City of Łęczyca is next to Warsaw-Berlin glacial valley and between 2 rivers like Bzura and Ner (tributaries of the Vistula and Warta/Odra rivers). Due to wetlands, it was only dry passage in this place, where those wetland narrow to around 2-4 km, so it was used as one of amber routes few centuries earlier. I heard from locals histories, that City of Łęczyca was founded to make some money from traders on this amber route.
--> Currently, there are still wetlands and peat bogs near Łęczyca.
#2
Will be an event to build of a Castle in Łęczyca? Casimir III (the ruler of Poland) was famous for funding the construction of castles in Poland.
Casimir III ordered the construction of Castle to Władysław "the Hunchback" of Piast (current Duke of Łęczyca) about 1345. It can be related with increasing development in provice and giving some money for it, due to existensce of important Collegiate Church in Tum (village next to Łęczyca) built in the mid-12th century.

#3
Culture in Duchy of Łęczyca and Duchy of Sieradz isn't Lesser Poland or Greater Poland or Mazovian or even Silesian. It was kind of small and separate culture. This region was a kind of buffer between Greater Poland or Mazovian, like Kuyavian Culture is neither Greater Poland or Mazovian, it's something different.
Those regions in "Central Poland Area" could have named Cultures as Kuyavian, Łęczycan and Sieradzan. Maybe creating new very small culture isn't good idea, but i think it can be done like Sudovian and Curonian, where culture is mixed with neighbor. Or just mark this region as mixed culture not assigned to only one.

---------------
I am from this region and want to help make the information and the game more historically accurate.

 

[G4naD]

Rename Dzierżoniów location in Świdnica province into its historical name - Rychbach (Polish, Czech) / Reichenbach (German).
City of Dzierżoniów was named in 1946 after Jan Dzierżon, a guy that lived in 19th century, so it's kinda silly to have this name in 14th century

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

The population of Lithuania Minor is called "mažlietuviai" (mažas - little), this really does sound like an insult?

The correct way to say it is:
1. Wielkopolanin
2. Małopolanin
The ending of the term is "Polan" not "Polak". In accordance with correct Polish.

To sum up, the term for the region and culture ends in "Polska" and for its inhabitants in "Polanin".

 

[Hadar]

View attachment 1182550

I just noticed that Gdańsk Pomerania is market as Prussia in Area Map Mode which is completely ahistorical. So called "West Prussia" is a term coined in 18th century as a way of Germanazing the region. Gdańsk Pomerania was never inhabited by Old Prussians. It should be either its own area or be part of Pomerania.

Also I am not sure if would era appropriate classify Neumark and Lebus Land as part of Brandenburg. Diocese of Lebus until 1424 was under Archdiocese of Gniezno and then in 1424 transferred under Magdeburg. So while I was completely fine with classifying Neumark and Lebus Land as Brandenburg in EU4 (1444 start date) I think that in 1337 it still should be considered part of Greater Poland (like CK3 does). Maybe there could be an event that if a German state control Lebus Land long enough it would stop being part of Greater Poland and become part of Brandenburg?

Spoiler: Map of Lebus Land

Furthermore is seems that Silesia goes to far west, it should end on Bóbr River. Everything West of Bóbr River should be classified as Lusatia.

Also I am not a big fan "Central Poland" because it seems very ahistorical. But I don't have any better idea. Maybe if you moved Kalisz and Gniezno to what is now called Central Poland Area then it would be appropriate to call it Eastern Greater Poland (which is historical name)? Ziema Wieluńska was undoubtedly part of Eastern Greater Poland. Kujawy, Ziemia Sieradzka and Ziemia Łęczycka also were part of Greater Poland before 1138. But I agree that calling Kujawy, Ziemia Łęczycja and Ziemia Sieradzka as (Eastern) Greater Poland would be archaic in 1337.

 

[Sir of Dark]

Also I am not a big fan "Central Poland" because it seems very ahistorical. But I don't have any better idea. Maybe if you moved Kalisz and Gniezno to what is now called Central Poland Area then it would be appropriate to call it Eastern Greater Poland (which is historical name)? Ziema Wieluńska was undoubtedly part of Eastern Greater Poland. Kujawy, Ziemia Sieradzka and Ziemia Łęczycka also were part of Greater Poland before 1138. But I agree that calling Kujawy, Ziemia Łęczycja and Ziemia Sieradzka as (Eastern) Greater Poland would be archaic in 1337.

Ziemia Sieradzka and Ziemia Łęczycka wasn't a part of Greater Poland. Ziemia Sieradzko-Łęczycka was a small region and was a part of Seniorate Province during Fragmentation of the realm (1138–1320), held by Bolesław's III widow Salomea of Berg for life.

Even on older maps with names of tribes this area is beetwen Grater/Lesser Poland or Masovian influence.

Spoiler: Map

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Three main markets, as the last time: Riga, Kraków, and Kyiv. And some staunch bugs regarding location connection to their markets that refuse to disappear, as well.

Questions:
#1: Have you tried solving these bugs by adding Danzig and Visby as own markets? Or merging the Riga Market into Lübeck Market?

#2: If not, are there any problems with Markets being too small OR too large?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

He's also Polish I think

ill clarify that im not

 

[Polesie Admiral]

I'm Polish and to me it would've sounded like an insult

sorry if i insulted you, you have a better name? lesser\greater sounds weird by itself

 

[The Ciceronian]

sorry if i insulted you, you have a better name? lesser\greater sounds weird by itself

Lesser/Greater Polish is the correct name. There is nothing wrong with it. There is no reason to change it.

 

[Wealthy_Communist]

I keep coming back to this page, love staring at this reworked map. Just FYI there are literal documents where leaders like Algirdas ,Kestutis and Vytautas called themselves as Lithuanians not Aukstaitians. Aukstaitija remained as purely a geographic term so it will be strange to see pops or characters with this culture.

 

[Linbot#6018]

I keep coming back to this page, love staring at this reworked map. Just FYI there are literal documents where leaders like Algirdas ,Kestutis and Vytautas called themselves as Lithuanians not Aukstaitians. Aukstaitija remained as purely a geographic term so it will be strange to see pops or characters with this culture.

Moreover, they also make it clear that the people of Samogitia and Aukstaitija are one ethnicity which is called Lithuanians. For this reason among others I simply don't see any good justification for Lithuanian to be split up.

 

[Wealthy_Communist]

Moreover, they also make it clear that the people of Samogitia and Aukstaitija are one ethnicity which is called Lithuanians. For this reason among others I simply don't see any good justification for Lithuanian to be split up.

Well. Samogitia actually developed an identity after being on front lines. Russian Empire census had 448k Samogitian speakers recorded down and 1200k Lithuanians. Meanwhile Aukstaitians never had any language or regional identity besides Lithuanian. Its simply a geographic term for Lithuania Proper. If they keep Aukstatija they would have to further cut it down to Dzukija, and Suvalkija which are the other geographic terms for Lithuania Proper and not the culture. I actually don't mind Samogitia being present but I hope devs realize eastern Lithuania is a mess right now. At least the fix is easy, rename it to Lithuanian.

 

[KamarovskyGames]

The location of Słupsk (Stolp) is MUCH larger than Koszalin (Koslin) and I am VERY glad about that, as these cities have an intense rivalry, and I belong to the better one

 

[Hadar]

Ziemia Sieradzka and Ziemia Łęczycka wasn't a part of Greater Poland. Ziemia Sieradzko-Łęczycka was a small region and was a part of Seniorate Province during Fragmentation of the realm (1138–1320), held by Bolesław's III widow Salomea of Berg for life.

Even on older maps with names of tribes this area is beetwen Grater/Lesser Poland or Masovian influence.

Spoiler: Map

View attachment 1183915

I am talking about pre-1138 situation. Before that Poland consisted of five main territories: Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, Silesia, Mazovia and Pomerania (which temporary additions of Lusatia, Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia). Just look how ecclesiastical provinces looked in 11th century:

Gniezno ecclesiastical province was basically what later would be called: Eastern Greater Poland, Sieradz Land, Łęczyca Land, with Kujavia glued to Mazovia (even though ethnically Kujavia is Greater Polish)

And I absolutely do not argue that using 11th century division is good idea for game starting in 1337, but I am not sure about calling area "Central Poland" because it was never used historically. Eastern Greater Poland and Lesser Poland were meant as the Senioral provinces, but Eastern Greater Poland fractured and Sieradz Land and Łęczyca Land lost their connection to Eastern Greater Poland, to the point these lands are no longer considered Eastern Greater Poland. On the other hand Wieluń Land fractured a little bit later from Eastern Greater Poland and it is still considered part of Eastern Greater Poland.

 

[Hadar]

Lesser/Greater Polish is the correct name. There is nothing wrong with it. There is no reason to change it.

I know that this is not an argument, but English Wikipedia uses "Greater Poland people" and "Lesser Poland people"

 

[Pavía]

btw @Pavía who rules the polesian-black ruthenian principaities(Pinsk,Novogrudok,Slutsk and Turov)?

Different members of the Gediminid dynasty.

 

[GonkJohan]

Hi! Native Silesian here. Overall I love the new map but I'd like to point out something about the Silesian dynamic names - they're very inconsistent. Why? Well they're written in three different alphabets - Polish, Steuer (interwar Silesian) and Ślabikŏrz (modern Silesian alphabet). I decided to have some fun and standardized them to the modern alphabet and ortography (and fixed a few mistakes).

Szczyrzyc:​

Uośwjyncim - Ôświyncim
Żywjec - Żywiyc

Tesin:​

Ćeszyn - Cieszyn
Bytůń - Bytōń
Śewjyrz - Siewiyrz
Biylsko - Biylskŏ

Opavsko:​

Uopawa - Ôpawa
Krnów - Krnōw
Frywaldów - Frywaldōw

Opole:​

Uoleszno - Ôlesznŏ
Lublyńec - Lubliniyc

Oleśnica:​

Trzebńica - Trzebnica
Sycůw - Sycōw
Uoleśnica - Ôleśnica

Wrocław:​

Oława - Ôława
Brosłōw - Wrocłōw

Świdnica​

Ńymcza - Niymcza
Źymbice - Ziymbice
Kamjynno Gůra - Kamiynnŏ Gōra
Dzierżoniów - Rychbach

Legnica​

Ligńica - Lygnica
Wołůw - Wołōw
Bolesławjec - Bolesławiyc

Głogów​

Głogůw - Głogōw
Gůra - Gōra
Kożuchów - Kożuchōw

Żagań​

Żahań - Żagań
Sulechůw - Sulechōw
Uodrzańske Krosno - Ôdrzańske Krosnŏ

 

[margustoo]

I agree on the name. However Viljandi was part of ancient Sakala so I think it should be South Estonian, maybe with a North Estonian minority to represent Nurmekund. Now Pietavala and Vilaka correspond to Adzele, which had a South Estonian population too alongside the Latgalians. As for the coastline I agree that is dubious, so I think it should be mixed instead with Livs, North and South Estonians.
View attachment 1183149

Your assumptions are wrong.

Firstly, the main administrative center for Sakala was north from the area where Mulgi language still excists and where it exicted during the time of Sakala. Historians are certain that Mulgi language was NOT spoken throughout Sakala (for example Urmas Sutrop¹ and Harri Moora² have said so in their books) and it was at least prior Crusades a country/tribe that had a north-south language divide.

Secondly, as far as coastline goes, it certainly didn't have any South Estonians. Main reason for that was that a belt of deep forests and marches acted like a natural barrier for migration, trade, conquest etc. This divide is even present today, where this area is quite sparsely populated. I wouldn't even stripe the coastal area for South Estonian and would make it instead either Estonian or Livonian or both. Urmas Stroop¹ for example found that Metsapole (area ruled by Livonians) didn't reach futher than Orajõe and because of that this coastline should be populated in game only by Estonian or at least predominantly by Estonian.

¹ Urmas Surop "Liivlaste Metsepole maakonna ulatusest põhja suunas muistse iseseisvuse ajal"
² Harri Moora "Eesti rahva ja naaberrahvaste kujunemisest arheoloogia andmeil."

 

[Slime99]

Your assumptions are wrong.

Firstly, the main administrative center for Sakala was north from the area where Mulgi language still excists and where it exicted during the time of Sakala. Historians are certain that Mulgi language was NOT spoken throughout Sakala (for example Urmas Sutrop¹ and Harri Moora² have said so in their books) and it was at least prior Crusades a country/tribe that had a north-south language divide.

Secondly, as far as coastline goes, it certainly didn't have any South Estonians. Main reason for that was that a belt of deep forests and marches acted like a natural barrier for migration, trade, conquest etc. This divide is even present today, where this area is quite sparsely populated. I wouldn't even stripe the coastal area for South Estonian and would make it instead either Estonian or Livonian or both. Urmas Stroop¹ for example found that Metsapole (area ruled by Livonians) didn't reach futher than Orajõe and because of that this coastline should be populated in game only by Estonian or at least predominantly by Estonian.

¹ Urmas Surop "Liivlaste Metsepole maakonna ulatusest põhja suunas muistse iseseisvuse ajal"
² Harri Moora "Eesti rahva ja naaberrahvaste kujunemisest arheoloogia andmeil."

Here's the traditional areas of South Estonians imposed on the location map of PC. As can be seen Mulgimaa overlaps with the location of Viljandi.

Saarahof can be fully Estonian if that is more appropriate. Viljandi should be a mixture of Estonians and South Estonians, as should Võnnu (Wendau). In fact splitting Wendau might be be a good choice here, but that might make the area a bit location dense.

Map I used for the areas of South Estonian languages.