https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instr...ographical_names_with_letters_of_Latin_script i dont know how much it will help the devs but here you go
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So, when we can expect new/next "Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback" Feedback ?
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Well we're still waiting for the population maps. I hope they don't forget about them
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Mazovia was probably fairly distinct due to different regional landscape, political independence, and dialectal differences.
As for Lesser/Greater Poland, you have to be careful not to project modern distinctions onto the distant past – the bulk of differences exists due to over a century of Polish territories remaining partitioned between three different empires. That said, some differences between them already existed beforehand -- we know, for example, that the magnates were much more powerful in Lesser Poland, while in Greater Poland the smaller and less wealthy noble families were the standard.
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I found on X a photo of a map from 1638 with the then nomenclature of towns in Poland and Silesia. I'm posting here for inspiration.
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Seems like you basically "hungarianised"/translated some names, which didnt really have a hungarian name before, I am not sure if thats the proper way we should be doing, even for these nearby regions. I fully support digging out obscure contemporary(-ish) names, if possible to at least point to a reasoanble source, but I dont think the design philosophy is to make up names just for the sake of it.
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I think the devs have done a tremendous job improving the outlook of Medieval Livonia and what we have now is times better than what existed previously.
In general, I think that whatever the boundaries were during the Medieval period, should be the preference. Sure, changes happened in the 16th and 17th century, and even more, other changes in the 18th and 19th century, which have led to the modern countries, but if someone starts the game, having things from the 18th century exist there is not really important or reasonable in my opinion. Yes, those things happened, but they were the result of hundreds of other changes that took place before that time, and if this game works out differently (as it always will), then perhaps that 18th century event would have not taken place at all or would have been different. So, I don't think that locations or provinces or areas should be named too anachronistically (the medieval period in itself is fine, because especially in Livonia our capability for sourcing things with any accuracy is pretty low with regards to whether a location started developing in the 14th century or in the 15th).
My further recommendations based on a quick look.
Areas name changes:
- "Baltic" > "Livonia"
Province name changes:
- "Rotalia" > "Osilia" (Eng.) / "Ösel" (German). In reality, this encompasses both "Osilia" and "Maritima" of this part of the lands, but the first was the medieval common use name so we can be happy using it now. Rotalia was a sub-divison of what became Maritima in "Osilia et Maritima", so it doesn't really work applying this name on this scale.
- The name "Tartu" should right now get the suffix "maa" to signify that it applies to a land. In truth, Estonian historiography doesn't apply "Tartumaa" as the name of this land, but this is the way to make it consistent and to have the land denominators appear more or less similar. "Tartu" is right now the only name here based on its Estonian root, and I would rather go to the medieval Tarbatum which was the Latinized name of Tartu (the city). Meanwhile, the Bishop was e. Tarbatensis, which I tried to decline for "Tarbate", but perhaps that's not exactly correct.
In any case it feels better to me to have the English starting names inherit from the Latinized common-use forms of the medieval period.
The area and provinces would have the following names in general (one change to current map because of culture issues):
I have seen some other comments bounced around here regarding this area though, and I will express opinion on some of them.
- I don't think only locations that ended up being major castles should be represented. As such, a place like Saarde is excellent as it allows to develop the economy in a different way.
- I think the Southern Estonian population point of view which has been represented here is an interesting one, but if that's done then a small minority of eastern peasantry should also be added to the province of Tarbatum/Tartu. This emigration was happening and it would be perhaps rather interesting to see it develop. Perhaps maximum 15% or similar of some of the locations. This site, for example, is one where Votian objects and items have been found (I believe, from the 14th century). Assimilation should be quick on the religious side, I think, so this wouldn't lead to Orthodoxy in the same areas.
I would like to find an opportunity next week to comment on the locations.
In general, I think that whatever the boundaries were during the Medieval period, should be the preference. Sure, changes happened in the 16th and 17th century, and even more, other changes in the 18th and 19th century, which have led to the modern countries, but if someone starts the game, having things from the 18th century exist there is not really important or reasonable in my opinion. Yes, those things happened, but they were the result of hundreds of other changes that took place before that time, and if this game works out differently (as it always will), then perhaps that 18th century event would have not taken place at all or would have been different. So, I don't think that locations or provinces or areas should be named too anachronistically (the medieval period in itself is fine, because especially in Livonia our capability for sourcing things with any accuracy is pretty low with regards to whether a location started developing in the 14th century or in the 15th).
My further recommendations based on a quick look.
Areas name changes:
- "Baltic" > "Livonia"
Province name changes:
- "Rotalia" > "Osilia" (Eng.) / "Ösel" (German). In reality, this encompasses both "Osilia" and "Maritima" of this part of the lands, but the first was the medieval common use name so we can be happy using it now. Rotalia was a sub-divison of what became Maritima in "Osilia et Maritima", so it doesn't really work applying this name on this scale.
- The name "Tartu" should right now get the suffix "maa" to signify that it applies to a land. In truth, Estonian historiography doesn't apply "Tartumaa" as the name of this land, but this is the way to make it consistent and to have the land denominators appear more or less similar. "Tartu" is right now the only name here based on its Estonian root, and I would rather go to the medieval Tarbatum which was the Latinized name of Tartu (the city). Meanwhile, the Bishop was e. Tarbatensis, which I tried to decline for "Tarbate", but perhaps that's not exactly correct.
In any case it feels better to me to have the English starting names inherit from the Latinized common-use forms of the medieval period.
The area and provinces would have the following names in general (one change to current map because of culture issues):
| Name (English) | Name (German) | Name (Estonian-Based) |
| Livonia | Livland | Liivimaa |
| Estonia | Estland | Eestimaa |
| Osilia | Ösel | Saaremaa |
| Courland | Kurland | Kuramaa |
| Tarbatum / Tarbate | Dorpat | Tartu(maa) |
| Semigalia /Semigallia | Semgallen | Semigallia |
| Selonia | Selonia / Oberlettland | Seloonia |
| Latgalia | Latgallen | Latgallia |
| North / South / Inner | Nord- / Süd- / Mittel- (the last isn't literal) | Põhja- / Lõuna- / Sise- |
I have seen some other comments bounced around here regarding this area though, and I will express opinion on some of them.
- I don't think only locations that ended up being major castles should be represented. As such, a place like Saarde is excellent as it allows to develop the economy in a different way.
- I think the Southern Estonian population point of view which has been represented here is an interesting one, but if that's done then a small minority of eastern peasantry should also be added to the province of Tarbatum/Tartu. This emigration was happening and it would be perhaps rather interesting to see it develop. Perhaps maximum 15% or similar of some of the locations. This site, for example, is one where Votian objects and items have been found (I believe, from the 14th century). Assimilation should be quick on the religious side, I think, so this wouldn't lead to Orthodoxy in the same areas.
I would like to find an opportunity next week to comment on the locations.
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Here you can see a huge difference in the density of cities in relation to the whole of Silesia and Poland. It is immediately obvious that Silesia was part of the HRE. Eastern Brandenburg is also highly urbanized.
The most urbanized area of Poland from this period is Wielkopolska. The northern Vistula areas are definitely more densely urbanized than for example Mazovia and Lesser Poland.
You can't see on this map a large part of Pomerania and Prussia.
This map is more detailed:
Polish crown in XVI century, according to various documents from that period (censuses etc.).
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A really great map!
It was there that I saw the Kurpiowska Forest (Puszcza Kurpiowska in Polish), which had been unpopulated for many centuries. Casimir the Great founded the gord of Nowogród not far from Łomża. This gord was supposed to protect Masovia against the invasions of the Yotvingians and the Teutonic Order - interestingly, it was very far from the conventional northern border of Masovia. Nowogród was to administer the Kurpiowska Forest. This map shows three hunting manors belonging to the Masovian princes and then to the Polish kings inside the forest: Rososza, Szkwa and Krusko (located on Lake Krusko, which does not exist today - visible on the map). Permanent settlement in the Kurpiowska Forest occurred only in the 17th century. At the end of the 18th century, the Kurpiowska Forest could have been inhabited by 12,000 people.
To sum up, at that times it was probably the most large unpopulated area in borders of modern Poland. I think this could be an area that wasn't colonized at the start of this game.
It was there that I saw the Kurpiowska Forest (Puszcza Kurpiowska in Polish), which had been unpopulated for many centuries. Casimir the Great founded the gord of Nowogród not far from Łomża. This gord was supposed to protect Masovia against the invasions of the Yotvingians and the Teutonic Order - interestingly, it was very far from the conventional northern border of Masovia. Nowogród was to administer the Kurpiowska Forest. This map shows three hunting manors belonging to the Masovian princes and then to the Polish kings inside the forest: Rososza, Szkwa and Krusko (located on Lake Krusko, which does not exist today - visible on the map). Permanent settlement in the Kurpiowska Forest occurred only in the 17th century. At the end of the 18th century, the Kurpiowska Forest could have been inhabited by 12,000 people.
To sum up, at that times it was probably the most large unpopulated area in borders of modern Poland. I think this could be an area that wasn't colonized at the start of this game.
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Nowy Sącz is not Górla, it's Lachy Sądeckie and those are part of lesser poles
The game is about historical alternatives. Like Hungary conquering Australia, so if developers have time to include such fanmade province names, we should cherish such contributions to the game. This will make it more fun and dynamic
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They actually said they implement localised names where it makes sense, they have to be somewhat plausible (for example; Turkish names for Greek locations, German names for Hungarian ones, etc.).
Good remark -- I intended to mention it in my earlier post about differences between Lesser/Greater Poland but it escaped my mind.
I agree that in principle it could be interesting to make it uncolonized, but only if there are more such areas in the region. Would be weird if there was a random small uncolonized area hundreds of kilometres far from the other ones.
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Greater Poland developed much faster than Lesser Poland due to its close proximity to Western Europe. From what I remember, until modern times, Poznań residents call new residents "Bamberg" - that's also where many settlers came from in the old days.
However, over time, Lesser Poland has expanded quite significantly. Mazovia, where I come from, was a very sparsely populated and standing out from the rest.
As I mentioned above, Mazovia was sparsely populated. The settlers of Kurpie were most often persecuted by the law, the Masovian peasantry and the poor szlachta. This region is unimportant but the fact is that it was uncolonized.
Of course, I don't care about that because it's more important to improve important regions such as Silesia, Lesser Poland or Prussia - who could still receive some love.
I'm kind of curious which parts of the follow-up feedback have been useful/included.
soon:
Tinto Maps #4 Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic Feedback Feedback
(Coming along with another 24 pages of yet more feedback!)- 3
Please Give Stolp location to teutonic order as it was leased by pomeranian dukes in 1329-1341
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