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Actually, the bishop was officially "Osiliensis", i.e., Bishop of Ösel. Though the territory of his secular power was split into two equal parts, Ösel/Osilia and Wiek/Maritima, there is no reason to go along with the 19th century invention of (the term of) "Ösel-Wiek" *(except for the fact that modern historiography has continued this trend). The duality of Ösel/Wiek should be represented as two separate provinces to allow the bishop to rule over two "regions". But I think the English language version should definitely refer to "Osilia" instead of "Ösel" to allow for a bigger commonality between the different bishoprics (many of which already are supporting Latin-based names).
A small argument for Riga Lettoniae is that Lettonia was one of the two stifts of the archbishop, with the other one being Livonia. So the name can honour either of these two by it's addition to "Riga". Though I wonder if an easier way to get around the naming of the archbishop would not be to have the archbishop exist as "Riga" and "The City of Riga" be "Riga-on-Daugava" so that any duchy that resulted from it would also be "Riga-on-Daugava". It's perhaps not as neat for the city, but I'm guessing that the turning the city into a monarchical state is less likely than doing the same for the archbishop.
I also disagree with the need to split Livonia into two areas; one big Livonian area would represent best the cultural and linguistic realm that existed in the Medieval period.
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Looking at other maps, the majority of provinces seem to be named after existing regions, not towns (e.g., Norfolk and not Norwich in the British Isles). I think this is a trend that can be carried through in Livonia as well, and therefore I disagree with the reason to bring in Polish 17th century administrative units to define in-game provinces. In the end, those were dependent on which town had achieved local superiority by that point, and this may be completely different in any game here, so leaving them as area-based terms would be much better.
In general, though, your comments relate much more to events from 1560 onwards than they do to the Medieval period which will be taking up the vast majority of gametime (the two first centuries, and I would imagine many people will be starting new games roundabout then -- who goes past 1700 religiously in EUIV?).
For those reasons I prefer the Medieval solution:
- Alt-Pernau should stay in one province with the locations of Ösel that are in (modern) mainland Estonia;
- Oberpahlen should stay in one province with Fellin.
I do, however, agree that "South Livonia" could be renamed to "Livonia". If "Inner Livonia" really is as unpalatable some here have made it out to be (which I don't think it necessarily should be), perhaps a name centered on the Gauja would make sense, or, to borrow from the 19th century historians, "Livonian Highlands"/similar.
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My own view on the locations is below.
In general, I think that the use of villages, parish churches, small settlements, or similar is better than the use of an area/island name for a location. Such that, for example, "Keinis" is better than Dagö except for one minor fact -- that Hiiumaa is owned by the Teutonic Order in Livonia (which, in my mind, should replace "Livonian Order" as the name of the country) should mean that the location is actually called Pühalepa / Poilep which was the T.O.'s parish on the island.
Also, I think that in the main, the improvements we have seen in this area are really great. However, instead of having a number of roughly equivalent-in-power states as we should, we have the following:
Denmark: 7 locations
B. Tarbatu (Dorpat): 4 locations
B. Osilia (Ösel): 4 locations
B. Courland (Kurland): 2 locations
A. Riga: 8 locations
C. Riga: 1 location
Teutonic Order in Livonia: 31 locations
(Bishops: 18)
Livonia altogether: 57 locations
In reality, the bishops in joint action were often able to at least stalemate the Order, but this doesn't seem likely in this setup. But also, it feels weird to have the Danish properties almost twice as "large" as the chief bishops' territories. So I would like to add one location to each of the bishops' provinces to have four more in Livonia for a relatively minor change which would still alter the balance of power rather a lot (the bishops together would be ~22% stronger). As the Bishop of Tartu was, at least in theory, a bit more powerful than the other bishops based on his lands' population and vassals, it could be an option to add two provinces for him, but perhaps that's too far outside the current options that still exist. Based on that, I have two variations of his lands.
Most importantly, I think a lot more maritime locations are needed to make this coastline feel "good" or decent enough to allow for some maritime warfare that's not completely boring.
Land locations:
1: Keinis belonged to the bishop; the Order's parish on Hiiumaa was Poulep / Pühalepa.
2: I would rename this to Carrien / Karja and pass it to the bishop (+1 to B. Osilia)
3: Renamed to either Peude / Pöide (main castle until approx. late 1340's) or Soneburg / Maasilinn (main castle from approx. 1350's to 1560's) in this region. This would stay with the Teutonic Order in Livonia.
1, 2, 3, plus Arensburg would form a four-location province called "Ösel" / "Osilia" (for which the bishop was named).
4: Leal (modified)
5: Werder / Virstu (modified location of current St. Martens), based on a 15th century castle and harbour which was relatively important in the 16th century.
6: Alt-Pernau / Vana-Pärnu added as a second town for B. Osilia, and his main grain export station.
4, 5, 6, plus Hapsal would form a four-location province called "Wiek"/"Maritima".
7 & 8: Modified borders for Tolsburg / Toolse, as Toolse was mainly a harbour/port location so should not be so extensive on the inland side. Main roads would have been through Wesenberg/Rakvere.
9: Removed "Wendau" to replace with Ecks / Äksi, which will be contentious again, but this was a heavily populated area with mostly many small villages/manors, so that's why I would opt for this parish center.
10: Add one to B. Tarbatu with Warbeck / Varbeki which is first mentioned about 50 years after game start, but ended up being a significant castle into the 17th century and ruled the mouth of Emajõgi.
11: Add second to B. Tarbatu with Kirrumpäh / Kirumpää west and north of Neuhausen / Vastseliina. Major castle from 13th century. This is outlined with the yellow line.
12: Modified boundaries for Neuhausen / Vastseliina.
13: Minor boundary modifications, but named to Odenpäh / Otepää as "Walk" was a border settlement and shouldn't be featured in this way.
These provide a slightly larger province that's wholly owned by B. Tarbatu in the beginning of the game.
14: This could be either Salismünde or Lemsal, dependent on where the center was placed, but this is essentially the archbishop's extra location.
15: With some argument, this could be either Roop/Gross-Roop or Lemsal
16: I liked the idea mentioned above of this one being Turaida which was one of the archbishop's most significant locations.
17: Hasenpoth released from "Durbe" and provided as an exclave to the B. Courland.
18: Modified boundaries for Durben.
Sea zones added to allow for 1 (Sõrve Strait, to control access), 2 (Livonian Coast, to allow for access to Riga), 3 (Gulf of Riga, could be considered deep water), 4 (Gulf of Pärnu, for access to Alt-Pernau and Pernau), 5 (Approaches to Osilia and Maritima), 6 (Väinameri, or the Sea of the Advocate of Maasi), 7 (Coast of Maritima), 8 (Coast of Harjumaa/Harrien), and 9 (Coast of Virumaa/Vironia).
The locations otherwise are more or less okay.
In general, I think that the use of villages, parish churches, small settlements, or similar is better than the use of an area/island name for a location. Such that, for example, "Keinis" is better than Dagö except for one minor fact -- that Hiiumaa is owned by the Teutonic Order in Livonia (which, in my mind, should replace "Livonian Order" as the name of the country) should mean that the location is actually called Pühalepa / Poilep which was the T.O.'s parish on the island.
Also, I think that in the main, the improvements we have seen in this area are really great. However, instead of having a number of roughly equivalent-in-power states as we should, we have the following:
Denmark: 7 locations
B. Tarbatu (Dorpat): 4 locations
B. Osilia (Ösel): 4 locations
B. Courland (Kurland): 2 locations
A. Riga: 8 locations
C. Riga: 1 location
Teutonic Order in Livonia: 31 locations
(Bishops: 18)
Livonia altogether: 57 locations
In reality, the bishops in joint action were often able to at least stalemate the Order, but this doesn't seem likely in this setup. But also, it feels weird to have the Danish properties almost twice as "large" as the chief bishops' territories. So I would like to add one location to each of the bishops' provinces to have four more in Livonia for a relatively minor change which would still alter the balance of power rather a lot (the bishops together would be ~22% stronger). As the Bishop of Tartu was, at least in theory, a bit more powerful than the other bishops based on his lands' population and vassals, it could be an option to add two provinces for him, but perhaps that's too far outside the current options that still exist. Based on that, I have two variations of his lands.
Most importantly, I think a lot more maritime locations are needed to make this coastline feel "good" or decent enough to allow for some maritime warfare that's not completely boring.
Land locations:
1: Keinis belonged to the bishop; the Order's parish on Hiiumaa was Poulep / Pühalepa.
2: I would rename this to Carrien / Karja and pass it to the bishop (+1 to B. Osilia)
3: Renamed to either Peude / Pöide (main castle until approx. late 1340's) or Soneburg / Maasilinn (main castle from approx. 1350's to 1560's) in this region. This would stay with the Teutonic Order in Livonia.
1, 2, 3, plus Arensburg would form a four-location province called "Ösel" / "Osilia" (for which the bishop was named).
4: Leal (modified)
5: Werder / Virstu (modified location of current St. Martens), based on a 15th century castle and harbour which was relatively important in the 16th century.
6: Alt-Pernau / Vana-Pärnu added as a second town for B. Osilia, and his main grain export station.
4, 5, 6, plus Hapsal would form a four-location province called "Wiek"/"Maritima".
7 & 8: Modified borders for Tolsburg / Toolse, as Toolse was mainly a harbour/port location so should not be so extensive on the inland side. Main roads would have been through Wesenberg/Rakvere.
9: Removed "Wendau" to replace with Ecks / Äksi, which will be contentious again, but this was a heavily populated area with mostly many small villages/manors, so that's why I would opt for this parish center.
10: Add one to B. Tarbatu with Warbeck / Varbeki which is first mentioned about 50 years after game start, but ended up being a significant castle into the 17th century and ruled the mouth of Emajõgi.
11: Add second to B. Tarbatu with Kirrumpäh / Kirumpää west and north of Neuhausen / Vastseliina. Major castle from 13th century. This is outlined with the yellow line.
12: Modified boundaries for Neuhausen / Vastseliina.
13: Minor boundary modifications, but named to Odenpäh / Otepää as "Walk" was a border settlement and shouldn't be featured in this way.
These provide a slightly larger province that's wholly owned by B. Tarbatu in the beginning of the game.
14: This could be either Salismünde or Lemsal, dependent on where the center was placed, but this is essentially the archbishop's extra location.
15: With some argument, this could be either Roop/Gross-Roop or Lemsal
16: I liked the idea mentioned above of this one being Turaida which was one of the archbishop's most significant locations.
17: Hasenpoth released from "Durbe" and provided as an exclave to the B. Courland.
18: Modified boundaries for Durben.
Sea zones added to allow for 1 (Sõrve Strait, to control access), 2 (Livonian Coast, to allow for access to Riga), 3 (Gulf of Riga, could be considered deep water), 4 (Gulf of Pärnu, for access to Alt-Pernau and Pernau), 5 (Approaches to Osilia and Maritima), 6 (Väinameri, or the Sea of the Advocate of Maasi), 7 (Coast of Maritima), 8 (Coast of Harjumaa/Harrien), and 9 (Coast of Virumaa/Vironia).
The locations otherwise are more or less okay.
Ecks (Äksi) did not excist independently before 16th century because this village and most other surrounding villages were under the control on Valkenau/Falkenau (Kärkna) monastry. First mention of Äksi village was made 1582 because after Livonian War they became independent from Kärkna. Similar to Padise, this area should be named after a monastary that held a lot of power over the region.
The reason why this province should not connect to Irbozka and be west from Neuhausen (and not north) is related to medieval roads. A road that went from Riga and from Dorbat to Pskov went through Vastseliina castle and you weren't able to by pass it from the north (unless you used a boat or went through Narva). That made Vasteliina more important castle for the order than Kirumpää. Kirumpää was just a castle on the road, while Vasteliina was a vital first defence against Pskov incursions.
As a reference here are all the roads in Estonia at the time of the game start. Roads in blue are for winter.
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I actually meant naming it after the church and not the village. The church is evidenced mid-15th century, and could have been as early as the 13th. Valckena's territories never extended as far as Saadjärve, including Äksi, and at least by the 1550's, they stopped well short (from the recent Tartu piiskopkond, 1224–1558):
Yellow: Vassals
Dark Green: Valckena monastery
Light Green: St. Catherine's monastery
Light Brown: Bishop
There are other options of course for the naming, but it felt even sillier for me to rely on something like Elistvere or another of the vassal's manors from this district as their dating and importance is very doubtable/arguable.
Yes, in general we are in agreement. Of course, at the start of the game, Vastseliina has not been founded yet so this will be a fairly uninhabited area. Kirumpää formed the border at that time with lands beyond it (to the SE) essentially a desolation/wilderness. The way this is best represented is tough to say, but I don't think Kirumpää's location should touch the border (as my image made it show). In effect, the Bishopric's eastern border would be best represented by two locations in the southern side: "Warbeck", which is "marshland so difficult you can't go through it" and then "Vastseliina", with neither having a castle in the beginning. For the sake of gameplay (i.e., to direct armies to use Vastseliina), I wuold make the Warbeck location extend very far south (more than in reality) to represent the extent of the marshy coast of Lake Peipus in this area.
With this in mind, my map from yesterday was not the best, but hopefully it still gave some ideas as to how one could add one/two locations into this province of the bishop.
I forgot to mention that I got this information from the "Äksi" webpage. Based on the information I have, the biggest and oldest village at that time was Saadjärve (Sadegerwe) where arround 300 people got christianised 1220. Valckena monastary was founded 1228 and lasted until 1558. First mention of Äksi parish is from 1443. Äksi village (the same place Äksi church is) was first mentioned 1558 when in inventory/audit of Tartu region they mentioned that this village and others had belonged before to Kärkna monastary.
Batasz (Pataste), Kaifer (Kaiavere manor), Kaiawer (Kaiavere village), Pahial (Patjala), Kaszynorm (Kassinurme), Arro (?, 1,5 km away from Kassinurme), Pykiorb (Pikkjärve), Kasywere (Kassivere), Sosar (Soosaare), Wyzusth (Visusti), Waidawer (Vaidavere), Alistfer (Elistvere), Hehawer (Ehavere), Kudzin (Kudina), Saskula (Sääsküla), Viado (Vedu), Kikiwier (Kikivere), Axy (Äksi), Puchta (Puhtaleiwa. Although this could be some other village because it was then known as Sooveere), Toloma (Toolama)
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Sure, the northern Tartu(maa)'s provinces location could also be named Saadjärve if this is what you were suggesting. You're right about the first mention of the church/parish of Äksi, but it's not unusual for first mentions in Livonia to be much later than the real founding of a place, so the church could well date to the 13th century.
I'm a bit less convinced by the ownership of the village in Valckena's hands, but that may be true even so. The status map provided above references 1558, and it's not impossible the monastery sold some lands it had earlier owned around the lakes there to the nobles by that point. Or the land ownership map may have some errors in it; it's based on Oleg Roslavlev's work. There's not been a whole lot of land ownership research or map making for the medieval period altogether, and I'm sure Roslavlev did not have all the sources one could have today at his disposal (though he probably spent enough time on it to compensate for that given the maps span about twenty years).
From the rest of your list, both Saadjärve and Elistvere are noted as private holdings (vassals') by Herbert Ligi's list of medieval manors (private manors). A quick search on Elistvere's history only mentions the enfeoffment of the manor by the bishop to a vassal in the 14th century, with no mention of the village before then. KNR does not list any mentions of the village of Elistvere prior to the mention of the manor. So, I'm not sure I'd believe the monastery's villages' list wholly, but it may again be that some earlier purchases/sales are not properly recorded.
The developers are probably very busy (kudos to them), but I'd love to see the results of this round of feedback; Whether some things have changed or not because of this thread.
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You are right. But there is more: Nowadays slavs are made of 2 dialect continuum 1 is in the North and 1 is in the South. So not Only from Rusyn to Novgorodian, but rather from Sorbs to Novgorodians.
Also culture is not equal to language. Like Bulgarian and Russian languages are very close, but culturally Bulgarian will be closer to Greek due to obvious reason
Yeah exactly!
Chrzanów was a private city anyway... Not only castle was created by Casimir the Great but also city rights were given to Będzin and it was designated as royal city (settlement is way older).
As well a mentioned already in this thread Będzin castle was part of Trial of Eagle's Nests which was important protection of the border. By the way border which lasted for hundreds of years (it has changed during desolution of Poland).
Even there could be special events to build a castle etc.
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Depending on how fast the rest of the Tinto Maps are done, it would be lovely if each one got a second review as well, with a variety of smaller changes suggested in these threads
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The Mazovian culture should be renamed Mazur, as this is the archaic term for an inhabitant of that traditional region. Inhabitants who would soon move north into Prussia, but I'll get to them a bit later.
There's no point in there being Curonian minorities that far east.
Brest Litovsk should be just Brest. The Poles called it by its longer name to differentiate it from a different Brest in Poland proper, but the Poles didn't control it in 1337. The province it's situated in should be Beresteishchyna.
Masuria got its name because of Polish settlers from Mazovia who moved in during Teutonic rule. With these settlers being completely absent on the map (which I think is historically accurate), there's no justification for the name.
Pocutia should be Pokuttia. Rotalia (a Latin name) should be Wiek & Ösel. Tartu should be Ugaunien.
Western and Eastern Podolia should be West and East Ponyzzia, respectively. Bratslav province should be Bratslavshchyna. The area they're in should be renamed Ponyzzia & Pobuzhzhia.
Belz province should be part of Volhynia.
The Baltic area should be Livonia.
This discussion properly belongs to the Carpathia and the Balkans maps, but none of those are of areas, so I'm putting it here: Slovakia? Hell no! Neither the native name nor any foreign forms are attested until much later, the area includes a lot of territory without a Slovak majority, and what a surprise, it looks exactly like modern-day Slovakia. Just call it North (not Upper) Hungary.
(Edited because I spelled Ponyzzia in 2 different ways.)
There's no point in there being Curonian minorities that far east.
Brest Litovsk should be just Brest. The Poles called it by its longer name to differentiate it from a different Brest in Poland proper, but the Poles didn't control it in 1337. The province it's situated in should be Beresteishchyna.
Masuria got its name because of Polish settlers from Mazovia who moved in during Teutonic rule. With these settlers being completely absent on the map (which I think is historically accurate), there's no justification for the name.
Pocutia should be Pokuttia. Rotalia (a Latin name) should be Wiek & Ösel. Tartu should be Ugaunien.
Western and Eastern Podolia should be West and East Ponyzzia, respectively. Bratslav province should be Bratslavshchyna. The area they're in should be renamed Ponyzzia & Pobuzhzhia.
Belz province should be part of Volhynia.
Volhynia
Image from entry Volhynia in the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine [ Інтернетова Енциклопедія України ]
www.encyclopediaofukraine.com
The Baltic area should be Livonia.
This discussion properly belongs to the Carpathia and the Balkans maps, but none of those are of areas, so I'm putting it here: Slovakia? Hell no! Neither the native name nor any foreign forms are attested until much later, the area includes a lot of territory without a Slovak majority, and what a surprise, it looks exactly like modern-day Slovakia. Just call it North (not Upper) Hungary.
(Edited because I spelled Ponyzzia in 2 different ways.)
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Isn't that just an uncommon Romanization of one of the Russian names?
apparently its romanisation of the old belarusian name
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Russian =/= Rus'
An archaic Russian name for a place in Belarus isn't automatically authentic. The question isn't what a clerk in St. Petersburg would've called the city immediately after it was annexed by Russia, or what a merchant in Moscow would've called it in 1337. It's what the East Slavic locals would've called it around that time.
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oops i was wrong apparently its the name from the primary chronicle which can be considered "old russian" if we're going with the local old belarusian name then its Biereść(also considering its under lithuanian control it should be called Brasta like in eu4)