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Pavía

Content Design Lead PDX Tinto
Paradox Staff
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Jan 3, 2006
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Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps feedback review! This week, we will be taking a look at Russia, a very anticipated review (which Johan already advanced in some maps last week).

A note before we start on the area that we've covered in this update. We've focused it on the core Russian lands, plus the Kola Peninsula. This means we've not yet updated the lands of Vyatka and Perm, nor those ruled by the Golden Horde. These will be covered in the future Tinto Maps feedback post, probably the one for the Steppes and Western Siberia. With that said, let's take a look at the list of changes, and then start with maps!

ADDITIONS

Added the following:
  • Locations (153+ 55 Lakes + 6 Wastelands)
    • Andomsky Pogost
    • Ashevo
    • Azeevo
    • Badozhsky
    • Beloe
    • Berezhnyany
    • Bernovo
    • Bezhanitsy
    • Bibirevo
    • Bogorodskoye
    • Bogorodskoye (Pereyaslavl)
    • Bolshevo
    • Bor Volgo
    • Borisogleb
    • Brody (Tver)
    • Burga
    • Chelmuzhi
    • Chuzboy
    • Demyanovo
    • Drokov
    • Dubok
    • Dubrovna
    • Fomin Gorodok
    • Georgevskoye
    • Glukhovichi to Perevitska
    • Gorodechnya
    • Goroditse
    • Gruzino
    • Ilovna
    • Ivangorod
    • Izboishchi
    • Izdeshkovo
    • Izori
    • Karniki
    • Katyn
    • Khakhaly
    • Khatun
    • Khlepen
    • Kholm
    • Khotiml
    • Khotmyzh
    • Khotsy
    • Kinerma
    • Klepiki
    • Knyazhichi
    • Knyazhoye
    • Koi
    • Koloshma
    • Koponovo
    • Korenevo
    • Kosozhichi
    • Kozlov
    • Ktsyn
    • Kubenskoye
    • Kulotino
    • Kurba
    • Kuretsk
    • Kurmysh
    • Kuzhbal
    • Lezhnevo
    • Luda
    • Lyady
    • Lyakhovichy
    • Lyuban
    • Lyubichi
    • Lyubun
    • Lyubno
    • Maryovo
    • Megra
    • Megrino
    • Meletovo
    • Meshchersk
    • Mezhutka
    • Mikhailovka
    • Mikshino
    • Mikulino (Tver)
    • Moshok
    • Mushkov Pogost
    • Nadvoitsy
    • Nikolo Dor
    • Nikol'skoye
    • Nizhel'skoye
    • Nuorttijärvi
    • Obolensk
    • Odintsovo
    • Opalkova
    • Orekhovna
    • Ostrechiny
    • Pashozero
    • Petrovsk
    • Podberezye
    • Pogoreloye
    • Pogostishche
    • Poreevo
    • Pribuzh
    • (Krasnye) Prudy
    • (Serebryanye) Prudy
    • Pryazha
    • Przemysl
    • Pustosel
    • Putyvl
    • Radogosch
    • Rakitnya
    • Raznezhye
    • Revny
    • Rogachevo
    • Ropsk
    • Rozhalovo
    • Rzhavets
    • Rzheva Pustaya
    • Sevsk
    • Shal'skii
    • Shatur
    • Shchuchye
    • Shenga-Kurya
    • Shoptovo
    • Shui
    • Sol Velikaya
    • Spasskoye
    • Spasskoye (Lyskovo)
    • Starodub-Votsky
    • Sudai
    • Suikujärvi
    • Sumino
    • Svinort
    • Svir
    • Talitsa
    • Tervenichi
    • Tesov
    • Trufany
    • Ust Kuloy
    • Valday
    • Veliky Porog
    • Verba
    • Vereya
    • Vertyazin
    • Verzhavsk
    • Vetlitsy
    • Vichuga
    • Visokoye
    • Vlasovo
    • Vodlozero
    • Vognema
    • Volkona
    • Volodimerets
    • Voronizh
    • Vorotynsk
    • Vorotynsk (Novosil)
    • Vshchizh
    • Yeszk
    • Yorga
    • Zhulino
    • Zolotkovo
  • Lakes
    • Lake Bol'shoye Rovkul'skoye
    • Lake Chudzjavr
    • Lake Dvin'ye
    • Lake Engozero
    • Lake Galichkoye
    • Lake Gimoly
    • Lake Golodnaya Guba
    • Lake Goltsovoye
    • Lake Imandra
    • Lake Kamennoye
    • Lake Kenozero
    • Lake Kenozero (Near Ladoga)
    • Lake Kolozero
    • Lake Kolvitskoye
    • Lake Konchozero
    • Lake Kozhozero
    • Lake Kovdozero
    • Lake Kovzhskoye
    • Lake Kukkureozero
    • Lake Lednikovoye
    • Lake Leksozero
    • Lake Lindozero
    • Lake Lizhmozero
    • Lake Lokht'yarvi
    • Lake Lovozero
    • Lake Lyoksmozhero
    • Lake Maslozero
    • Lake Nero
    • Lake Notozero
    • Lake Nyuk
    • Lake Otradnoye
    • Lake Pal'vozero
    • Lake Peschanka-To
    • Lake Pleshcheyevo
    • Lake Pyaozero
    • Lake Seletsy
    • Lake Seliger
    • Lake Sergozero
    • Lake Shotozero
    • Lake Sredneye Kuyto
    • Lake Sumozero
    • Lake Suoyarvi
    • Lake Syamozero
    • Lake Tishkeozero
    • Lake Topozero
    • Lake Tulos
    • Lake Tungudskoye
    • Lake Umbozero
    • Lake Verkhneye Kuyto
    • Lake Volgo
    • Lake Vyalozero
    • Lake Vygozero
    • Lake Yelmozero
    • Lake Yenozero
    • Lake Zhizhitskoye
  • Wastelands
    • Divided many Wastelands in more pieces.
  • TAGs (15)
    • Fomin-Berezuesk
    • Galich-Mersky
    • Gorodets
    • Klin
    • Kozelsk
    • Novgorod-Seversky
    • Pronsk
    • Rylsk
    • Starodub
    • Suzdal
    • Tarusa
    • Uglich
    • Vladimir
    • Yuriev-Polsky
    • Zubtsov
  • Characters
    • fmb_fyodor_konstantinovich_krasny
    • glm_davyd_konstantinovich_rurik
    • glm_fyodor_davydovich_rurik
    • glm_ivan_fyodorovich_rurik
    • kch_mstislav_mikhailovich_rurik
    • kch_svyatoslav_mstislavich_rurik
    • kch_panteleimon_mstislavich_rurik
    • kch_vasily_panteleimonovich_rurik
    • kch_andrei_mstislavich_rurik
    • kzk_titus_mstislavich_rurik
    • mos_sophia_yuriovna_rurik
    • prk_alexander_mikhailovich_rurik
    • prk_mikhail_yaroslavich_rurik
    • prk_yaroslav_alexandrovich_rurik
    • rya_konstantin_romanovich_rurik
    • rya_yaroslav_romanovich_rurik
    • tve_konstantin_mikhailovich_rurik
    • trs_yuri_mikhailovich_rurik
    • trs_konstantin_yurievich_rurik
    • yrv_yaroslav_ivanovich_rurik
  • Dynamic Names
    • Added tons of Dynamic Names
CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:
  • Locations (only corrections. Additionally renamed all locations to standardized form):
    • Aksentevo to Berezovets
    • Alexandrov to Alexandrovskaya Sloboda
    • Ardatovo to Sergach
    • Beloye to Lipno (Lipnaya Gorka)
    • Belinsky to Chembar
    • Bezhetsk to Gorodetsk
    • Bolshoy Dvor to Ozerevo
    • Bolshoye Ignatovo to Altyshevo
    • Cheltsa to Kobyl'e
    • Cherepovets to Cherepoves
    • Dalen Olina to Dalniye Zelenstsy
    • Demyansk to Demon
    • Dyatkovo to Foshnya
    • Grad Mersky to Galich
    • Hotoshino to Khotoshino
    • Kaduy to Nikol'skoye
    • Karhumagi to Karhumägi
    • Kashkaransj to Kashkarantsy
    • Kexholm to Korela
    • Kharkiv to Donetsk
    • Khoza to Zaostrovskoye
    • Kildon to Kiltinä
    • Koivisto to Beryozovskoye
    • Kolgaczich to Unezhma
    • Koporje to Kopor'ye
    • Korop to Melnya
    • Kovoda to Kovda
    • Kovrov to Rozhdestveno
    • Kurovskoye to Rogozh
    • Lahdenpohja to Kurkijoki
    • Laptevo to Lopasnya
    • Lekanstroj to Akkala
    • Liissila to Lisino
    • Likhoslavl to Mednoye
    • Limenda to Pyras
    • Lindoserskij to Lindjärvi
    • Lokot to Boldyzh
    • Loymola to Loimola
    • Luskoje to Staropolye
    • Lyudinovo to Fominichi
    • Mafelskoj to Maaselkä
    • Makaryev to Unzha
    • Malaya Shuika to Maloshuyka
    • Maly Arkhangelsky to Tagin
    • Markkova to Markobo
    • Maselskiij to Maselga
    • Mena to Snovsk
    • Michurinsk to Kozlov
    • Mökhö to Möhkö
    • Molouskoj to Mootka
    • Morshansk to Morsha
    • Nev to Nebolchi
    • Noginsk to Vokhna
    • Nöteborg to Oreshek
    • Nyen to Neva
    • Okulovka to Lyubytino
    • Onegaborg to Shuya
    • Onega Peninsula to Nyonoksa
    • Opoka to Zaplyusye
    • Oryol to Zvenigorod
    • Paaanajärvi to Paanajärvi
    • Padanskij to Puatane
    • Panoimskoj to Panoi
    • Parfino to Nalyuchi
    • Peszenskoj to Luujärvi
    • Petrovskoye to Izberdey
    • Petzinka to Pechenga
    • Pialiska to Pyalitsa
    • Pienika to Pieninka
    • Plaskoye to Gogol
    • Pochinok to Belik
    • Podporozhye to Vinnitsy
    • Podyuga to Charonda
    • Porchov to Porkhov
    • Poretskoye to Atrat
    • Prokhorovka to Muzhech
    • Riistina to Ristiina
    • Rugosenskoj to Rukajärvi
    • Sarai to Kazari
    • Seletskij to Sellinkylä
    • Sem Ostronoj to Semiostrov
    • Semtsejerskij to Semčojärvi
    • Serdobsk to Serdobinskaya
    • Seredyna-Buda to Znobov
    • Sergiyev Posad to Yanovo
    • Shakhanovka to Krasavino
    • Shenkursk to Vaga
    • Shugozero to Spirkovo
    • Sigovets to Vazhiny
    • Sokol to Arkhangelskoye
    • Soligalich to Sol' Galichskaya
    • Soma to Saarijoki
    • Sonoshinskoi to Sumsky Posad
    • Spasskij to Vygozero
    • Stanovoye to Ploskoye
    • Starababa to Olenitsa
    • Stupino to Koshira
    • Suenokele to Suonikylä
    • Svetenoes to Svyatoy Nos
    • Taldom to Dubna
    • Trelina to Tetrino
    • Tsareva to Vekshenga
    • Tunga to Tunkuo
    • Tutayev to Romanov
    • Tyrö to Martyshkino
    • Uhtua to Uhtuo
    • Ust-Shonosha to Tavrenga
    • Ustyuzhna-Zheleznopolskaya to Ustyuzhna
    • Vartsila to Värtsilä
    • Vashky to Vashki
    • Vaskina Polyana to Staraya Ryazan
    • Vesyegonsk to Ves Yogonskaya
    • Voigoma to Kriitina
    • Volnushki to Luchani
    • Volokolamsk to Volok
    • Volovo to Terbuny
    • Vyazniki to Yaropolch
    • Warshiga to Varzuga
    • Yagnitsa to Lukoves
    • Yegoryevsk to Vysokoye
    • Yershichi to Zaroy
    • Zadonsk to Teshevka
    • Zaozyorye to Ustye
    • Zaraysk to Rostislavl-Ryazansky
    • Zhizdra to Usty
    • Zhizhitsa to Zhizhets
Cultures
  • Reworked the spread of cultures in the region.
Raw Goods
  • Changed several Raw Goods as suggested.
Terrain and Vegetation
  • Total Review.
Locations
  • Redrew several Locations.

Countries
Countries.png

Countries2.png

In the first screenshot you can see the wider picture of the region, while in the second, we have the Russian Principalities more in detail. The main change here, besides the additions, is that most of them are now under the Tatar Yoke. Speaking of that, two more screenshots, the first with the IO itself, the second with the lands ruled by Ivan I 'Kalita', Prince of Muscovy:

Tatar Yoke.png

Diplomacy.png

The second screenshot is taken playing as Novgorod, which has an elective system to pick its ruler, the current one being Ivan I 'Kalita'; you may see that Pskov and Orshek are subjects of Novgorod, while the other Principalities share with Novgorod a Personal Union under the aforementioned Prince of Muscovy.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

The map of Russia is much clear when you just take into account the ruling dynasties... :p

Societies of Pops
SoPs.png

A map mode that we hadn't revealed yet when we first presented Russia, as a few more below.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations2.png

Locations3.png


Provinces
Provinces1.png


Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Russia is in general terms a cold, flat, and forested region. The climate has already been changed to the new standard (1901 distribution). Please let us know any further terrain suggestions for us!

Development
Development.png

Development2.png

Another new map, the development one. There's a big difference between the core lands, and the outer ones.

Harbors
Harbors.png

A few interesting harbors here.

Cultures
Cultures.png

Some tweaks here, as we now have Bjarmian, Polatskian, and Smolenskian spreading over the Russian map. It's WIP, so suggestions are welcome.

Languages
Dominant Language.png

Dialects.png

Court Language.png

This is our current proposal for Russia, following the feedback received, although take it as non-final. First, there are two Languages, Russian and Ruthenian, both belonging to the Slavic language family. Each of them is divided into two different 'Dialects' (remember, this is a gameplay term, as they're closer to real-life languages), Novgorodian and Russian for Russian, and Belarusian and Ukrainian for Ruthenian. The later terms are a bit modern for 1337, but we wanted to show here clearly what linguistical spheres we wanted to portray; we will gladly receive suggestions to potentially change these names for more flavorish ones if you think so. Finally, the third map is the Court Language, as you may notice because of having Latin over the Livonian and Prussian lands.

Religions
Religions.png

Not many changes in the religious map mode. The main one is the portrayal of 'Finnish ancient religion' ('Suomalainen muinaisusko'), which we've called in-game 'Muinaisusko'; please let us know if you like this name, as well.

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Raw Materials2.png

I suggest you to make an exercise, and find the differences with the original Tinto Maps...

Markets
Markets.png

Not many differences, but I thought that a bigger picture wouldn't hurt, as taking a look at another endonym possible with our new flavor system, 'Moskva'.

And that's all for today! We'll be reading your feedback to our feedback review (feedback loop!), and replying to your questions, as usual. The next Tinto Maps will be this Friday, the 13th, about Central America. Aaand, we will be able to have one more Tinto Maps Feedback post before the Christmas break, the one devoted to Levant and Egypt, next Monday, the 16th! Cheers!
 

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No update to the finnic pagans in Estonia & Ingria? Or are they just not visible due to being too small minorities?

Also name change of Ukonusko feels very much too non-specific now. Maybe ut's just me but it doesn't have the same ring to it.
WIP, there needs to be some more work on the minorities, as we've been lately having some code issues that we need to fix first.
 
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What is the light blue coloured religion in Novgorod?
Why is there Sunni religion in Lithuania?
1. Votian, one of the cultural Animist religions that we know need to rework.
2. Because of a bug in the pop editor.
 
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will their be any events concerning maybe a revival of the Kievan Rus. I wrote a paper in highschool about them and if i recall prior to the Mongol invasion kiev had about 50,000 people with a very close trade relationship with Constantinople and was quite developed. Quite accuratly you represent the area in 1337 as very undeveloped, but not long before the start date it seems quite developed. I belive the source for that figure can be found in Lord and Peasent in Russia By
Jerome Blum. Basically Im wondering if there will be events to help you role play as someone trying to revive the Rus from kiev instead of Muscovy.
Not on release, as we are focusing mostly on purely historical content, and not so much on the alt-historical possibilities. It will be possible to create the Kingdom of Ruthenia, and there's some content for it at the start of the game, though.
 
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Great job! As always I have some qurstions and requests:

-1 Is Aleksandr Mikhailovich ruler of the republic of Pskov at the start and are there events regarding his return to Tver and his "rivalry" with Moscow and the Golden Horde?
-2 Who's the ruler of the Vyatka tag and is it a republic?
-3 Last time you told me that the tag of Novgorod can have it's historical name(Sovereign Lord Novgorod the Great) but since Nizhny Nivgorod exists as a tag from the start I feel like that the other Novgorod(both tag and location) should be normally called Veliky Novgorod(or Great Novgorod in English) to distinguish the 2 since they are relatively close
-4 Someone mentioned in the tinto maps that for consistency the Moscovy tag should be renamed to Moscow to which I agree since that the name Moscovy/Moscovia although fine is a western exonym, the Rus started properly calling both city(country) and river Moskva(Moscow) around this time period
-5 On the same note of the previous two can you rename Perm to its official name Great Perm plz?
-6 Since Vladimir and Moscow have been split does that mean that the former is a tier three tag(Grand principality) and the latter a tier two(principality)?
-7 Is Russia a kingdom or an Empire tier formable tag? Considering Russia first united as a Tsardom under Ivan the terrible and officially became an empire centuries later under Peter the Great I'd say the first one makes more sense especially if we compare it to Bulgaria
1. Yes to the first, no to the second.
2. Not touched, unknown AFAIK, so it starts with a random ruler and dynasty.
3. We'll consider it.
4. We're aware, we've kept and favored for the moment archaicism, as feeling more flavourish, although we'll keep reading the feedback regarding it.
5. Doable.
6. Hmm, good question, as the flavor title of the Tatar Yoke leader is 'Grand Prince of Vladimir'... I'll give it a thought, thanks.
8. Empire ATM, but could be changed.
 
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Nice to see so much attention to detail given for these reviews :)

Also I have a question that isn't necessarily related to this, about character names. Basically, how are they coded in? Do you have a separate pool for commoner names / ruler names? For different religions? Do specific countries get unique names or just cultures?
They're done by cultures, both for commoners, and for the upper class, and as a side system, we also have dynastical names.
 
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Are the Slavic population in the Golden Horde included in this Feedback? Because I see too many Slavic people in Uren(instead of Mari) and too little in Yelets and Lipetsk.
No, not yet.
 
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Could you say what is your policy regarding feedback to feedback?
Do you wait with implementing it until entire map goes through Feedback 1, or do you implement at least some of it as you go?
Usually on the go, because 'Feedback of the Feedback' posts would be tiresome for everybody, and two rounds of feedback are usually enough to gather all the relevant information that may help us.
 
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What are some of the culture groups the cultures belong to? Are there broad culture groups like Slavic or Turkic that Muscovite or Mishary can also be part of?
Russian and Slavic culture groups, and there's also a Tatar one.
 
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How does Novgorod function as a country in-game? Like a PU in EU4? More independently? For what I've seen, it was very independent by these times and should not be represented as too subject to the Muscovites.
PUs work differently in Project Caesar, we'll talk more about in a future Tinto Talks.
 
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Very good to see massive improvements to the Karelia area! Though not sure what this tiny wasteland is meant to be:
View attachment 1228229

Also not sure why there's pearl production in Karelia? Is there a source/reason for this? I don't recall ever reading about pearl production there. Salt was the primary trade good in White Karelia.
View attachment 1228230

SOURCE IN SWEDISH: https://www.karjalansivistysseura.fi/sv/sv-historia/vitahavskusten/

New name for finnic paganism is also fine.

Sami should not be a giant SoP as I've mentioned in the Scandinavia thread. Especially with Johan mentioning recently that SoPs have social stratification with nobles/clergy/peasants. Sami were generally bands of nomadic hunter-gatherers with little political centralization or social stratification. Reindeer herding wasn't a thing yet. Sami should just be tribesmen without a SoP.

View attachment 1228232

If you're going to have a Sami SoP regardless of history, then at least split it into smaller ones based on Sami dialects.

Still some major problems with finno-ugric cultures, as some important feedback doesn't seem to have been implemented.

View attachment 1228236

1. Why are there still Vepsians here? Veps inhabited the area south of Ladoga and Aunus. Map from the 9th century:

View attachment 1228237
View attachment 1228252

2. Why have you not implemented the feedback from these excellent posts:

View attachment 1228239

It's pretty much how it should roughly look. Important to note that his map marked majorities and minorities correctly. In the 1300s, finnic cultures are largely not yet assimilated into Russian especially in Volga and North Russia.

You can say "oh most of this will be in the Golden Horde feedback" and that's fine, but please fix the finnic cultures in Novgorod/Muscovy areas while you're at it.

3. Why are there Bjarmians on White Karelian coast??? I don't think anyone suggested that. Maybe you misunderstood a feedback post or something?

View attachment 1228245
View attachment 1228242


Bjarmians are believed to have lived on the Dvina river, in modern-day Archangelsk region.

View attachment 1228246

I've circled the area where modern historians believe Bjarmaland was for your convenience. Sadly, one of the traditional sources for history of Bjarmia, "Bjarmien vallan kukoistus ja tuho", is only available in finnish from what I can tell.

So who should inhabit the coast of White Karelia then? Well, um, Karelians, obviously. Though they probably hadn't settled the northern parts of the coast in the 1300s yet. Some Pomor lived there too, of course.

SOURCE IN SWEDISH: https://www.karjalansivistysseura.fi/sv/sv-historia/vitahavskusten/

In conclusion, this isn't just finnic nationalist circlejerk. The history of the finno-ugric peoples of Russia is closely intertwined with the history of the, well, Russian people. Even Russian historians acknowledge this. If you want an accurate representation of the history of Russia, you need to accurately represent the role of the various finno-ugric people who lived there, especially this far away in history. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm just sad the excellent feedback I saw wasn't implemented at all.
Two reasons for not having implemented yet any of that feedback: 1. We have not yet worked on the outer parts of the region, just on the core Russian lands (plus Kola and Karelia). 2. We have some issues with our pop editor that have limited a lot of the work we could do on the minorities, that's why we haven't reviewed so much the Veps and other cultural and religious minorities in the region (which we plan to do with the rest of the region).

We will also take another look at the Bjarmian, as we review all those non-Russian peoples.
 
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Can you elaborate on this a bit more, please?

Does this mean that commoners and the upper class can have separate name lists (both first name and last name) like in Vic 3?

What do you mean by "as a side system"?

And do you have weighted names, like in CK, where some names are more common than others? Eg. John being more common than Randolph.
1. Yes.
2. Yes, we have 4 pools of names for each culture: male and female names, dynasty (= upper-class surnames), and lowborn (=lower-class surnames).
3. Each scripted dynasty can be scripted to use only a handful of male and female names.
4. Not in general terms, but maybe it could be done somehow with our current system.
 
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is Ivory a resource in this game? Either from Walrus, Narwal, elephant or Rhino. I dont recal seeing in on the iceland/greenland, nordic or the north american. And if I remember correctly Muscovy made a killing in the 1600s selling ivory found from mammoth remains in Siberia.
There are 5 locations with Ivory as a resource between Iceland and Greenland, yes.
 
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Hi! A quick update about something that I've just been working on this afternoon:

Velikiy Novgorod.jpg


I've used 'Veliky Novgorod' as the name of the country for two reasons:
1. It allows for a clearer distinction with the two other Novgorods (Nizhny Novgorod and Novgorod-Seversky).
2. Our current naming system for countries doesn't support having both a suffix and a prefix (as it's not common), so this was the easiest workaround.
 
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