So ancestors of eastern Slovaks and Rusyns. They did not magically die out, though a part of them (in the lowlands) would have hungarized. By 14th century they should be represented as Ruthenian & partially Hungarian, really.
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Zalavar (Blatnohrad) Slavs came from Nitra, so I'd say western, but I doubt they remained in any significant numbers by the 14th century.
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@Pavía would'n it be better for Candia and Negroponte to have Venetian as their primary culture and Greek as accepted since they were republics of which the main offices were almost always occupied by Venetian people? Candia especially since it was set up as a Venetian colony
I guess the question is how you interpret the evidence, to me after reading those paragraphs saying Rusyn are just direct descendant of white croats is akin to say South Albanians are direct descendants of Epirote Slavs and Romanians direct descendants of Transdanubian Slavs, they are indeed descendants in a genetic sense but culturally there was a turnover, which obviously might appear less important when it's Slavs assimilating other Slavs,
Even if it is a slav to slav conversion such a process would have reinforced transcarpathian ties, contrary to the idea that Rusyn always existed since the slavic migrations and were always East Slavs and just coincidentally also converted to the Orthodox religion like other East Slavs and then diverged more when Hungarians conquered, which is contradicted by what those paragraphs say.
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Return rusyn culture. They are significantly different from halychian. They have their own language.
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It's questionable whether the orthodoxy came pre-hungarian conquest via Cyril & Methodius or later with any immigration from across the Carpathians. Bottom line, I think we can agree that the original Slavic majority population has been present there, whether called Rusyn or Ruthenian in the game. And they should also be the largest minority in Sáros/Šariš county, far ahead of Hungarian (who historically only ever were a single digit minority in that area).
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You seem to be misconstruing the timeline and mixing up various Slavic groups:
"The theory of 19th-century Ukrainian priests (Andrella, Babilovics, Lucskai, Bazilovics, Dusliskovics) who proclaimed the indigenousness and autochthonousness of the Ukrainians of Transcarpathia was refuted by historiography based on written sources. Bidermann was the first to prove that the uninhabited mountainous regions of Zemplén, Ung, Bereg, and Máramaros were settled by shepherds from Galicia starting in the 13th century." [Page 28]
"Three theories have been developed regarding the origin of the Ruthenians in Hungary: the theory of indigenization, the theory of arrival together with the Hungarian conquerors, and the theory of migration. The theories that assert the indigenization of the Ruthenians have been mostly refuted by modern historical science." [Page 65]
...numerous historical sources testify that the mass settlement of the Ruthenians began in the period following the Tatar invasion, i.e. from the middle of the 13th century. [Page 65-66]
Obviously, the area was not completely uninhabited before the Hungarian conquest or the Ruthenian migrations, but the people living there had been mostly assimilated and many perished due to border incursions and of course the Mongol invasions. The way I see it, in the 13th-16th century the region was a melting pot between the Hungarians and Ruthenians migrating there, along with many other cultures (Germans and Romanians were also mentioned, or rather Saxons and Vlachs in the texts if that matters).
Now, whether we can call the Ruthenians living there at the time Rusyns is tricky. Based on the sources it seems a bit anachronistic, but since the devs decided to split up the Ruthenian culture, they might as well differentiate between Rusyns to display the unique customs that developed there over time.
Looking at the old map it is a bit perplexing that they had Rusyns (when in all sources they are referred to as Ruthenians) in the first place, and it is even stranger that they removed them after they split up the Ruthenians (so once it made sense to represent Rusyns).
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It really makes no sense to say it's from Cyril or Methodious, because if it was so then the Slavs would have stayed Catholic like Hungarians and Slovaks were.
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But the Moravians & Slovaks (Hungarians are still somewhere in Etelkoz at that point) did not become Catholics because of C&M, but in spite of them, when Svätopluk overthrew Rastislav and brought in Frankish missionaries instead.
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This is going to be a controversial take so I would appreciate counter-arguments, preferably from Ukrainian or Slovakian academic sources and not nationalistic gut reactions.
Most of the documents on Ruthenians/Rusyns seemed to suggest that they did not spread out as far and in the numbers – at the game's start – as they are represented on the current map:
"The Ruthenians initially settled in the uninhabited, flat areas along the "border defense line" [gyepűvonal]. In the 15th–17th centuries, due to the shrinking of free land, the settlement of the mountainous areas on the inner side of the North-Eastern Carpathians, the so-called Verhovina, gained momentum." [Page 66]
"Parallel to the Ruthenian settlement, the Hungarian ethnic group managed to populate the area of Transcarpathia in the present-day sense by the end of the 14th century." [Page 66]
"As for Transcarpathia, one of the researchers, Gáspár J., has shown that the current generation of Ukrainians (Rusyns) are not direct descendants of the 13th-century settlers, but are mostly 18th-century immigrants. The above is also supported by statistical data. For example, between 1720 and 1787, the population of the right bank of the Tisza River increased by 320 percent." [Page 32]
An extremely difficult-to-read map [Page 25] about the Hungarian settlements and expansion in the 11-12th century:
Population data from the 15th century when the Hungarian % was the highest in history:
"The population of the former counties of today's Transcarpathia in 1495 was 75,685 inhabitants in 21 cities and 592 villages in the four counties. According to ethnicity, he established the following proportions: Hungarian 51,900 (69%), Ruthenian 12,600 (16.8%), Slovak 5,300 (7.0%), Romanian 5,680 (7.5%)." [Page 29]
For additional visual aid I could refer to post #41, but I will be the first to admit that it is a biased and simplified map.
Here's a Slovakian source, albeit not about Transcarpathia:
"Ruthenians penetrated into the territory of eastern Slovakia in two basic waves starting from the beginning of the 14th century... it was only in the 16th century, especially from its middle, that more substantial Ruthenian-Wallachian activity can be documented." [Page 62]
All in all, the current culture map is doing a good enough job, but perhaps flipping Ungvár and Beregszász from Rusyn to Hungarian majority is warranted:
To clarify, I am not disputing whether Rusyns lived there at the time, just that they only became a majority in later centuries, during and after the Ottoman occupation. Additionally, when it comes to population statistics, it will be important to represent Slovaks, Romanian (not sure which group) and German populations as they are also mentioned in practically all the sources that I've been reading.
Most of the documents on Ruthenians/Rusyns seemed to suggest that they did not spread out as far and in the numbers – at the game's start – as they are represented on the current map:
"The Ruthenians initially settled in the uninhabited, flat areas along the "border defense line" [gyepűvonal]. In the 15th–17th centuries, due to the shrinking of free land, the settlement of the mountainous areas on the inner side of the North-Eastern Carpathians, the so-called Verhovina, gained momentum." [Page 66]
"Parallel to the Ruthenian settlement, the Hungarian ethnic group managed to populate the area of Transcarpathia in the present-day sense by the end of the 14th century." [Page 66]
"As for Transcarpathia, one of the researchers, Gáspár J., has shown that the current generation of Ukrainians (Rusyns) are not direct descendants of the 13th-century settlers, but are mostly 18th-century immigrants. The above is also supported by statistical data. For example, between 1720 and 1787, the population of the right bank of the Tisza River increased by 320 percent." [Page 32]
An extremely difficult-to-read map [Page 25] about the Hungarian settlements and expansion in the 11-12th century:
Population data from the 15th century when the Hungarian % was the highest in history:
"The population of the former counties of today's Transcarpathia in 1495 was 75,685 inhabitants in 21 cities and 592 villages in the four counties. According to ethnicity, he established the following proportions: Hungarian 51,900 (69%), Ruthenian 12,600 (16.8%), Slovak 5,300 (7.0%), Romanian 5,680 (7.5%)." [Page 29]
For additional visual aid I could refer to post #41, but I will be the first to admit that it is a biased and simplified map.
Here's a Slovakian source, albeit not about Transcarpathia:
"Ruthenians penetrated into the territory of eastern Slovakia in two basic waves starting from the beginning of the 14th century... it was only in the 16th century, especially from its middle, that more substantial Ruthenian-Wallachian activity can be documented." [Page 62]
All in all, the current culture map is doing a good enough job, but perhaps flipping Ungvár and Beregszász from Rusyn to Hungarian majority is warranted:
To clarify, I am not disputing whether Rusyns lived there at the time, just that they only became a majority in later centuries, during and after the Ottoman occupation. Additionally, when it comes to population statistics, it will be important to represent Slovaks, Romanian (not sure which group) and German populations as they are also mentioned in practically all the sources that I've been reading.
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if you take a look at the early reign of emperor Dusan of Serbia (then king) you will be able to find Dubrovnik making an agreement in 1333 to pay Emperor dusan 8000 perpers and an anual rate of 500 perpers. How will this be shown in the game? Would it have a special event? And maybe another province for the peninsula and Dubrovnik itself being a city as it is known that area had specific rights to stay orthodox under the agreement signed in 1333 indicating at least a minority in the province of dubrovnik! would love to hear more about this!
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Yet another Balkan troll who doesn't want to enter into an argumentative discussion
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That's a fairly accurate assessment of Beregszasz, and Maramaros didn't have that many Ruthenians until the 15th century either (I'd make Raho mostly Transylvanian).
Ungvar I'm not sure about, as you would also have to account for substantially higher Slovak numbers.
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Some of eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina should be at least minority Serbian. Eastern Herzegovina and the lands of the Altomanići in eastern Bosnia should be Serbian majority. The lord of the lands across the Drina river, that were already part of the medieval Bosnian land, where ruled by the aforementioned Serbian noble family, which swore loyalty to Dušan a couple decades after. But Western Hum shouldn't be mostly Serbian, maybe not even as a minority depending on the criteria for a minority population to appear visible.
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I did see some stuff and apparently he died like 2 years before
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Cool, I guess his son rules over Corfu im 1337 then, Can you tell me where did you find this so I can change the post?
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Beregszasz, maybe Hungarian majority in 14th century could make sense. Ungvar not so much. But please for the love of god Sáros needs to have Hungarian replaced by either Rusyn or German, both minorities outnumbered the Hungarians there several times over.
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