Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[Byzantium2000]

Why is Epirus a Byzantine vassal? It should be fully independent in 1337 under Anna Palaiologos, widow of John Orsini who murdered him. Anna offered to be a vassal with her son Nikephoros as despot in 1337 under Emperor Andronikos III Palaiologos but Andronikos rejected her and full annexed Epirus in 1338 which then stuck in 1340 after putting down a rebellion.

(Treadgold, “A history of the Byzantine State and Society”)

(Kaldellis, “The New Roman Empire, A history of Byzantium”)

Phokaia should also be a Byzantine subject under the Genoan Domenico Cattaneo who rebelled against Byzantine authority in 1334-1335 with Genoese help and was forced back into submission by 1336, later being completely evicted from the island in 1340.

I also have found scant but debatable evidence whether Genoa yet controlled Amastris. Professor Ian Mladjov has it under Byzantine control in his map of 1350, and Dimitri Korobeinikov mentions it foundation as a Genoese colony being 3 separate dates post 1337 from 1339-1344, 1356-1363 or 1374-1376, citing Karpov.

 

[JohnCro]

Not sure is there any thread for goals of the countries you have in mind but here is my goal for Croatia if I played it

 

[Materloo]

Not sure is there any thread for goals of the countries you have in mind but here is my goal for Croatia if I played itView attachment 1254360

I hope you realize, that medieval Croatia never had these borders. It was borders of the 1940's Croatia.

Csáktornya/Cakovec as we discussed earlier was not part of Croatia, but Hungary, alongside with Szermség/Srem

 

[JohnCro]

I hope you realize, that medieval Croatia never had these borders. It was borders of the 1940's Croatia.

Csáktornya/Cakovec as we discussed earlier was not part of Croatia, but Hungary, alongside with Szermség/Srem

I know but this is what I WANT to have, I even toy of idea of vassals in Italy, doesn't have to be 100 percent historic

 

[ArVass]

@Pavía, three quick questions
- what is the full official name of the Albanian principalities? Lordship like Berat? Perhaps county?
- did you end up changing the colours of Bulgarian, Greek, Transylvanian Saxon, Transylvanian Romanian etc so they don't look practically identical?
- I forgot what the third question would have been, so here is a picture of my frog instead:

 

[Polesie Admiral]

knowing you added 35 or so norse pops, whats stopping you adding 35 hungarian pagan pops?

 

[ArVass]

knowing you added 35 or so norse pops, whats stopping you adding 35 hungarian pagan pops?

Actually, you are not wrong, pretty sure there should be tiny fraction of still pagan (Tengri) Cumans present

 

[Ajaxwindowcleaner]

I hope you realize, that medieval Croatia never had these borders. It was borders of the 1940's Croatia.

Csáktornya/Cakovec as we discussed earlier was not part of Croatia, but Hungary, alongside with Szermség/Srem

I hope you are ready to remind a LOT of people that their borders are ahistorical

 

[Ispil]

It's been a bit too long since there was a nice, heated argumentative topic that cuts deep along ethnic and cultural divides in this thread, so let me just open up another can of worms on that front.

Should the localization of the location of Dubrovnik under the Republic of Ragusa be "Ragusa" or "Dubrovnik"? Presently it's "Dubrovnik", as per the map.

 

[ArVass]

It's been a bit too long since there was a nice, heated argumentative topic that cuts deep along ethnic and cultural divides in this thread, so let me just open up another can of worms on that front.

Should the localization of the location of Dubrovnik under the Republic of Ragusa be "Ragusa" or "Dubrovnik"? Presently it's "Dubrovnik", as per the map.

Depends on the language of the primary culture of Ragusa, as it seems.
When it is Croatian, Dubrovnik.
When it is Dalmatian, Ragusa.


Dynamic localisation depends on primary culture and its dialect, not tag

 

[Ispil]

Depends on the language of the primary culture of Ragusa, as it seems.
When it is Croatian, Dubrovnik.
When it is Dalmatian, Ragusa.


Dynamic localisation depends on primary culture and its dialect, not tag

Right, which then begs the question: what's the primary culture of the Republic of Ragusa?

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Right, which then begs the question: what's the primary culture of the Republic of Ragusa?

its a vassal of Venice so i reckon Dalmatian

 

[Ispil]

Y'know, I just realized that there's an error with the setup. Why is Corfu Venetian?

It should belong to the Kingdom of Albania:

To elaborate on some of the other mentions, it seems Naupaktos should also remain in the hands of the Kingdom of Albania:

Angelokastron as well:

Not Vonitsa, however. Vonitsa should belong to Argos, as should Leucas:

Actually some added clarity here as to the complicated mess of statuses and titles:

So, assuming the weakness of John in this situation, anything that's supposed to belong to Albania should actually belong to Robert, son of Catherine (the current ruler of Achaea). Or Catherine herself. Either works.

 

[Ispil]

To put it to a map:

1. Belongs to Argos, freshly conquered
2. Belongs to Achaea
3. Independent archbishop of Patras, which I've mentioned before
4. Duchy of Athens

Corfu to Achaea as well.

As to explain all the stuff with Athens:

 

[Ispil]

Wait, the location map didn't make it seem like Salona was representing Frederic's stuff separately. Map, take two:

1. Corfu and Butrinti, to the Kingdom of Albania Achaia
2. Leucas and Vonitsa, to Argos
3. Anglokastron and Naupaktos, to Achaea
4. Karystos, to Salona
5. Patras, independent archbishopric

 

[Ispil]

Also, one last little bit to confirm Angelokastron:

It seems that the Albanians only wind up there after the Serbians take it, but in 1337 it should still belong to the Angevins.

 

[Ispil]

Some more details, this time from The Despotate of Epiros:

So the Albanians ruling those locations should be Byzantine subjects. Or rather...

The Byzantines should be presently at war with them.

Also it seems, in contrast to what I pointed out above, that Angelokastron should actually belong to Epirus. Looks like John Orsini seized it and then, as per the above, swore fealty, but never actually gave up the land. Sources aren't really clear when it changed hands, but it seems that John Orsini definitely held it.

It also seems that Corfu should also belong to Achaea. Looks like when John took Albania, he took only Albania and nothing else.

 

[Ispil]

Aha!

So we have explicit statements saying that Butrini was tied to Corfu, a ruler of Corfu with some heritage (John Kabasilas, son of Alexios Kabasilas), the fact that those rulers were subject to Achaea (the "agent of Catherine of Valois" bit, plus the fact that the land remained held even after Epirus's annexation to the Byzantines), and the fact that Venice did not hold it yet. Plus another confirmation of the fact that Walter of Brienne still held Vonitsa and Leukas even as far as the Serbian conquest of Epirus and that he held those lands (as confirmed above) as early as 1331.

EDIT: Alright it seems that it was more just "a guy with land" rather than directly ruled; the territory goes to Achaea.

 

[Ispil]

Also, Slano should belong to Ragusa, not Venice.

(Ston is just north of Slano in this case but still in the same location; Pelješac is the peninsula of the Slano location)

 

[Ispil]

Putting it all together...

1. Ragusa, now including Ston and Pelješac
2. Achaea's holdings in Corfu, directly held
3. Walter of Brienne (Argos)'s territories in Epirus, directly held
4. Achaea's holdings in Epirus, directly held
5. Alphonso Frederick (Salona)'s holdings in Euboia, directly held

Won't bother mentioning Patras because I've beaten that dead horse aplenty.