Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[Ispil]

From The Late Medieval Balkans:

I don't disagree on the religious makeup, but in terms of whether Serbia held this territory in 1337, you are mistaken.

 

[Ispil]

If you dont care about such nuances in the game, then why bother with transliteration discussions at all? If the historical accuracy of cultural identity isnt a priority, then surely, just like in Europa Universalis IV and Victoria 3, players should simply have the ability to rename provinces as they wish after conquest. That would be the logical solution-problem solved.

This is literally how these games work. You take over a location, it gets renamed to the localization that fits the culture of the country you're playing (unless you turn that off). I am proposing a localization of that location that fits Serbo-Croatian based on how it's transliterated today and was probably transliterated then. I don't understand what's so complicated about this. If you're angry at how Serbs transliterate this name, be angry at the Serbs, not at me.

Would you take such issue with me proposing a renaming/respelling for a location that wasn't Albanian?

 

[Ispil]

Alright, how about this.

Rubik as the name as an actual place rather than the region (since the devs have said they prefer the names of cities over the names of regions). Existed in 1337 (there's a Catholic monastery church there from the 12th century, it seems). Spelled the same whether in Albanian or Serbian. Seems like it should just barely fit in the location's borders.

In exchange, I insist on Skadar and Lješ.

 

[Znikii]

For those who crave the forbidden knowledge, banned by the Jedi order, but shared by the Sith

Wallachian Mobility and Settlement along the Carpathian Arc

The story of Wallachian mobility and settlement is remarkably central to the human condition. At its core, it reflects a fundamental drive to enhance daily life by migrating to new territories. The Wallachian features not only shaped their own existence but also left a lasting impact on the...

www.routledge.com

[Insert Palpatine meme]

 

[EneaBako]

Allow me to extend a research into the matter of why northern provinces were autonomus at some extend and why does it need a little change;

Duśan control over northern part of Albania was never absolute as shown in the map. Instead of Serbia fully owning the province, Dukagjin, Has, Komman, Lezhe, Shkoder could be tributary states, meaning they pay tribute but arent directly governed or could be autonomous entity under limited influence. Albanian chieftains were never fully subdued, and historical sources confirm this autonomy. A tributary status to some northern regions including Dukagjin, will reflect diplomatic flexibility is a better way to represent this in game.That way, we keep it both historically accurate and in line with game mechanics.

Historical research shows that Stefan Dušans expansion into Albania was largely a military assertion rather than deep administrative control.

John V. A. Fine, in The Late Medieval Balkans, explains that Serbian influence was limited in North Albania, with local Albanian chieftains like those in Dukagjin retaining substantial autonomy.

Similarly, Peter Bartl points out that while Serbias military campaigns reached into Albanian lands, the administrative integration never took hold. Oliver Jens Schmitts work on regional power dynamics further illustrates that even when Dušan claimed these areas, real control was minimal, as local rulers maintained significant diplomatic leverage. Noel Malcolm also emphasizes that after Dušan’s death, any semblance of Serbian control evaporated quickly, underscoring the temporary nature of that influence.

***

Translating this into game mechanics means that the Dukagjin, Has, Koman, Lezhe and Shkoder province have a tributary status such or an autonomous province with some extend of influence. It would still be under Serbian suzerainty considering the time period, paying tribute or following certain diplomatic ties but local rulers would have enough independence to potentially break away or shift alliances as conditions change. This dynamic setup will reflect some historical realities but also adds some strategic depth, while allowing the players to choose Albania and unify the provinces under Skanderbeg not much later on.

 

[Ispil]

I'm not opposed. Biggest issue is finding an appropriate person to give those lands to. Do you have any sources on what families might've owned lands there, and whether they were around in those regions prior to the collapse of the Serbian Empire (since those events led to a lot of movement of people; just look at what happened in Epirus)?

Also you don't need to disagree with all the posts I made on unrelated topics. I only disagreed with the couple of ones pertinent to this discussion.

And to be clear my naming suggestions still stands in the event that Serbia or some Serbian state were to actually go and annex and fully control those locations. Whether or not they actually directly held those locations in 1337 does not change that part of the suggestion. It just wouldn't be something that you'd see at start.

 

[ArVass]

Allow me to extend a research into the matter of why northern provinces were autonomus at some extend and why does it need a little change;
View attachment 1264297
Duśan control over northern part of Albania was never absolute as shown in the map. Instead of Serbia fully owning the province, Dukagjin, Has, Komman, Lezhe, Shkoder could be tributary states, meaning they pay tribute but arent directly governed or could be autonomous entity under limited influence. Albanian chieftains were never fully subdued, and historical sources confirm this autonomy. A tributary status to some northern regions including Dukagjin, will reflect diplomatic flexibility is a better way to represent this in game.That way, we keep it both historically accurate and in line with game mechanics.

Historical research shows that Stefan Dušans expansion into Albania was largely a military assertion rather than deep administrative control.

John V. A. Fine, in The Late Medieval Balkans, explains that Serbian influence was limited in North Albania, with local Albanian chieftains like those in Dukagjin retaining substantial autonomy.
View attachment 1264298

Similarly, Peter Bartl points out that while Serbias military campaigns reached into Albanian lands, the administrative integration never took hold. Oliver Jens Schmitts work on regional power dynamics further illustrates that even when Dušan claimed these areas, real control was minimal, as local rulers maintained significant diplomatic leverage. Noel Malcolm also emphasizes that after Dušan’s death, any semblance of Serbian control evaporated quickly, underscoring the temporary nature of that influence.

***

Translating this into game mechanics means that the Dukagjin, Has, Koman, Lezhe and Shkoder province have a tributary status such or an autonomous province with some extend of influence. It would still be under Serbian suzerainty considering the time period, paying tribute or following certain diplomatic ties but local rulers would have enough independence to potentially break away or shift alliances as conditions change. This dynamic setup will reflect some historical realities but also adds some strategic depth, while allowing the players to choose Albania and unify the provinces under Skanderbeg not much later on.

Shouldn't having low control be probably more accurate to represent this?

 

[EneaBako]

Shouldn't having low control be probably more accurate to represent this?

If the population is largely left alone and you mainly extract resources without direct governance, then tributary system would be the best fit. If there is some feudal obligation, then vassalage applies. If there is just disorder due to decentralized administration, then low control describes the situation.

However allow me to add that; Despite Serbian overlordship, powerful Albanian noble families like the Dukagjini and Thopia held substantial autonomy. These lords managed their own territories according to the Kanun-laws, collected taxes, and maintained local militias, often acting semi-independently.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I

If the population is largely left alone and you mainly extract resources without direct governance, then tributary system would be the best fit. If there is some feudal obligation, then vassalage applies. If there is just disorder due to decentralized administration, then low control describes the situation.

I'm not sure that's how Paradox sees it. Realistically, there would have been huge portions of the map where established power extracted resources from local leaders without really imposing any particularly administrative norms. If they were all recognised, there would be a gigantic explosion of tags. Realistically, tributaries shouldn't just exist where resources were extracted from local leaders, but where local leaders themselves were large enough to have recognised relations with foreign powers, rule over sufficiently large territorial areas, and so on. I'm not aware of any Albanian tribes under the Serbian Empire which were prominent enough to get tags - you'd mostly just be making up tags and name and giving them arbitrary borders.

Low control seems the best description really.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

I


I'm not sure that's how Paradox sees it. Realistically, there would have been huge portions of the map where established power extracted resources from local leaders without really imposing any particularly administrative norms. If they were all recognised, there would be a gigantic explosion of tags. Realistically, tributaries shouldn't just exist where resources were extracted from local leaders, but where local leaders themselves were large enough to have recognised relations with foreign powers, rule over sufficiently large territorial areas, and so on. I'm not aware of any Albanian tribes under the Serbian Empire which were prominent enough to get tags - you'd mostly just be making up tags and name and giving them arbitrary borders.

Low control seems the best description really.

I've been thinking for a while that certain autonomous populations in the balkans - especially those in the highlands or that participate in transhumance - might be better modelled as SoPs that overlap with regular states.

 

[EneaBako]

I


I'm not sure that's how Paradox sees it. Realistically, there would have been huge portions of the map where established power extracted resources from local leaders without really imposing any particularly administrative norms. If they were all recognised, there would be a gigantic explosion of tags. Realistically, tributaries shouldn't just exist where resources were extracted from local leaders, but where local leaders themselves were large enough to have recognised relations with foreign powers, rule over sufficiently large territorial areas, and so on. I'm not aware of any Albanian tribes under the Serbian Empire which were prominent enough to get tags - you'd mostly just be making up tags and name and giving them arbitrary borders.

Low control seems the best description really.

I get your point about how Paradox handles tags and tributaries, but my focus is more on historical autonomy rather than strictly fitting into existing game mechanics. Even under Dušan, northern Albanian lords like the Dukagjini, Thopia, and Balsha ruled semi-independently with their own laws and militias. Given how short-lived Serbian rule was and how quickly Albanian lords asserted full control afterward, it makes sense to represent these regions as self-governed rather than fully absorbed into Serbia. This also better reflects the coming rise of Skanderbeg and the League of Lezhë, rather than treating Albania as a fully integrated Serbian province that just suddenly “reappears” later.

 

[EneaBako]

I've been thinking for a while that certain autonomous populations in the balkans - especially those in the highlands or that participate in transhumance - might be better modelled as SoPs that overlap with regular states.

Just to clarify, Albanian highlanders werent nomadic. They lived permanently in their villages and followed Kanun-based governance. While some might have practiced seasonal livestock movement, they didnt abandon their homes like nomadic peoples. Their autonomy wasnt due to mobility but rather their strong clan structure and the difficulty of imposing centralized rule in the mountains.

 

[phantasmAgaric]

Just to clarify, Albanian highlanders werent nomadic. They lived permanently in their villages and followed Kanun-based governance. While some might have practiced seasonal livestock movement, they didnt abandon their homes like nomadic peoples. Their autonomy wasnt due to mobility but rather their strong clan structure and the difficulty of imposing centralized rule in the mountains.

I'm more referring to Aromanians and later Yörüks w/rt nomadism and transhumance - plus SoPs have been established to also refer to settled populations that don't have a centralised state-like authority.

 

[EneaBako]

I'm more referring to Aromanians and later Yörüks w/rt nomadism and transhumance - plus SoPs have been established to also refer to settled populations that don't have a centralised state-like authority.

Got it, that makes sense, although I hope we arent adding things that might become too overcomplicated for both the game and the devs. The decision to shift from a unified Albania in 1336 to partitioning it into smaller regions already overcomplicated things, and the devs kept it unified for a good reason. Historically, Albania wasnt a centralized state but a collection of semi-autonomous provinces controlled by noble families like Thopia and Balsha, often under the influence of larger powers. Instead of turning each region into a separate state, a better approach might be to represent them as autonomous territories under vassalage. That’s why I suggested depicting the northern Albanian provinces as vassals or tributaries of the Serbian state. This would keep the map somehow manageable while maintaining historical accuracy and reflecting the decentralized nature of medieval Albania.


P.S. The German states are a bigger nightmare.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I've been thinking for a while that certain autonomous populations in the balkans - especially those in the highlands or that participate in transhumance - might be better modelled as SoPs that overlap with regular states.

I'd had a pretty similar thought! Might be overcomplicating things, though.

 

[wilhelmwied]

I think the autonomy of the Gheg clans is probably already simulated by low control. The albanian domains of Serbia likely already have very low control(distance, mountains, no roads, foreign pops, recently conquered, religion etc). Also most albanian pops in Northeastern Albania and Western Kosovo should be tribesmen, that would be more than enough to simulate any autonomy that the clans had.
But I do think the Dukagjini should be added as a releasable tag with cores on all of northern Albania including Shkoder. They became independent in 1387 after the fall of the Serbian empire. As should be Kastrioti in Debar. Maybe the Gropa and Zenebishi can be added as releasables too(1-2 location minors like Matranga). This would set the stage for the oath-League of Lezhë later in the game. Hopefully with a similar setting to the Swiss Confederation(either an IO or country with with high decentralization and some appropriate law).

 

[Trepanator]

This dynamic setup will reflect some historical realities but also adds some strategic depth, while allowing the players to choose Albania and unify the provinces under Skanderbeg not much later on.

Not to rain on your parade but i sincerely doubt that Albania will get any unique stuff at the game's release. It was confirmed for Croatia, i think that Albania is in the same boat. Couple of DLC's in i could see it happen, however.

 

[Trepanator]

One, this is literally the official transliteration from Albanian into Serbian's rules.

Two, caring about bridging languages rather than erasing the identity of the source? In the modern era, absolutely.

In the time period of this game? Need I point out the laundry list of utterly destroyed source identity of places renamed from Arabic into Spanish, or Greek into Turkish, or Greek into Serbian (at least for the duration of Serbian rule in Greece), and so on and so forth?

You are arguing for modern sensibilities for cultural erasure at a linguistic level in a game whose setting absolutely did not give a damn about the extent that they were doing all sorts of cultural erasure to the names of the places they ruled. Or should İzmit be renamed Nikomedya?

Like... I'm not asking for this to be the default. I'm pointing out that this would be the way that Serbia would write the name of that location in the event that they're ruling that location (which they are in 1337). If Albania is ruling it, it'd be Dukagjini. If Albania conquers Peć it'd rename to Peja. Devs even mentioned a game rule that you could make the naming reflect plurality culture rather than ruling primary culture. Also there'd no doubt be another option to turn such renaming off, in which case the location would just be Dukagjini.

And this is why barring the naming system that they have, they should just let the players rename locations and provinces in-game, would solve this argument.

 

[Trepanator]

I think the autonomy of the Gheg clans is probably already simulated by low control. The albanian domains of Serbia likely already have very low control(distance, mountains, no roads, foreign pops, recently conquered, religion etc). Also most albanian pops in Northeastern Albania and Western Kosovo should be tribesmen, that would be more than enough to simulate any autonomy that the clans had.
But I do think the Dukagjini should be added as a releasable tag with cores on all of northern Albania including Shkoder. They became independent in 1387 after the fall of the Serbian empire. As should be Kastrioti in Debar. Maybe the Gropa and Zenebishi can be added as releasables too(1-2 location minors like Matranga). This would set the stage for the oath-League of Lezhë later in the game. Hopefully with a similar setting to the Swiss Confederation(either an IO or country with with high decentralization and some appropriate law).

Johan already confirmed that Serbia implodes into many tags after the fall. As for the tags we might get to see them if there is to be a Serbia tinto flavour. But at this point i hope it doesen't happen as it would be a shitshow in the comments, though the hungarians and romanians did behave in the hungary one, so who knows.

 

[I like wars and maps]

Not to rain on your parade but i sincerely doubt that Albania will get any unique stuff at the game's release. It was confirmed for Croatia, i think that Albania is in the same boat. Couple of DLC's in i could see it happen, however.

You have way more optimism for Paradox then I do. Considering Afghanistan got a dlc in HOI4 before Albania did despite being part of WW2 as the first state annexed and having infinitely more fun gameplay opportunities its impressive enough the devs even aknolwedge albania as existing wich they didnt when making CK3. Guess albanians grew out of mold in the overlap years of CK3 and project caeser.