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I still believe that there needs to be at minimum, a separate Industrial District from which you select either a Foundry zone, a Factory zone or a mixed Industry zone. A separate Industrial District would enable players to create Industrial zones without it using up one of the two free urban district zone slots in vanilla.
 
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Then limit it to 2-3 types of District per planet. Exactly the same way they did Zones. Right now you can add 2 custom "district types" which can create 4 different Jobs. How would flipping it to the verion I gave, with the restriction that you start with the default City District, and then you can add 1 more from a list at Colonization, and a second later on as the COlony grows.

It's the exact same limitations, but you get better control over what jobs are built when.
while I can see what you are complaining about, I don't know that its all that big of a deal. At least I've enjoyed my time with the beta. And I've felt my planets were a lot more interesting than in 3.14. to be fair, that's not hard. But its still a step in the right direction.

Given the extra effort to make the city districts distinct--complete with lore for each combination available--I'd suggest they are hoping to use the city district with its variable description to more accurately distinguish planets. I don't know that it will work, but that does appear to be how they are building the system.

I can see how they view it. Having several different districts--even if they are variable--could be viewed as less interesting as a single district that is different depending on your choices.

The difference between 'this is my planet with research and fortresses' and 'this is my skunkworks planet where military research is happening.'

Weather that difference is enough for you will very. it is for me. especially as I've not experienced any big issue with the mixed output planets. And I find this new set up more intuitive and straight forward.
 
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housing has essentially become a non-descissionfactor to the point that i was questioning why i should feel something positive for a 75% housing need reduction ( + housing-negative-trait is going to become the new meta ).
I suspect the 1000 housing per city was a placeholder because they weren't looking to balance it yet. Cuz yeah, it's nuts. I've still managed to see the AI have housing issues and I don't have any overlord holdings to bail them out of that problem.
 
I just don't understand what this system gives us that couldn't have been gained by giving planets a certain amount of customizable districts, rather then blending them together in City Districts. Like right now we have 3 Rural Districts (Energy, Minerals, Food) and 3 "Urban" Districts (City, Custom, Custom) but instead of letting us build those 2 custom districts seperately, they get all get lumped in together, and you lose the finer control over the system.

How is pushing these all together better than doing seperate districts with their own set of building slots? To me, it's the same thing, but with less control over your worlds.

(Credit to Pootino for the prettier UI)
Do you not understand or do you understand but don't consider it a good tradeoff? They're very different complaints. I understand why you want discrete districts I just have different priorities.
 
I'm very happy with the terminology changes. District to districts is a small but very important change and specialisations is a less cool name but much better at getting across what they do.
Probably for the best, allows you to make a proper Physics/Engineering hybrid research world on a planet with positive modifiers to both.

What I'd like is for "+30" jobs per district to be changed to something like "+33.3334" jobs (displayed as "+33"), so that they are actually adding up to +100 minus one, instead of lagging a whole 10 jobs behind, which quickly adds up to a 100 jobs disadvantage with 10 districts built.
I kinda like the idea of different districts having different base job amounts as long as the total input and output is reasonable. There's pros and cons to requiring 10,000 less pops to fully employ a research planet over an alloy planet (before building modifiers). I like mixes of pros and cons.

E: of course embracing the glory of base 12 and making the standard district pop amount 120 would be the far superior option.
 
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View attachment 1279840
I don't really like the look of these research support districts. Since all the penalties can be avoided, they're just encouragement to spam basic resource districts for the +10% research output while disabling all the debuffed miner jobs and using the engineering research specialization so you don't need to pay increased biologist upkeep. It works a little better if that tooltip is wrong and you're paying increased upkeep on engineers rather than biologists, but I still don't like that the correct move is to disable all the miner jobs due to the -30% output and get your minerals from another planet. Maybe it should give a reduction in number of miner jobs provided rather than a penalty to job efficiency?

Here's the livestream, in case anyone needs help finding it since I haven't seen it linked anywhere:
In order to avoid people turning off the miner jobs, it would be better to put the "Engineers output bonus" on the miner jobs themselves, instead of per district.
 
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View attachment 1279840
I don't really like the look of these research support districts. Since all the penalties can be avoided, they're just encouragement to spam basic resource districts for the +10% research output while disabling all the debuffed miner jobs and using the engineering research specialization so you don't need to pay increased biologist upkeep. It works a little better if that tooltip is wrong and you're paying increased upkeep on engineers rather than biologists, but I still don't like that the correct move is to disable all the miner jobs due to the -30% output and get your minerals from another planet. Maybe it should give a reduction in number of miner jobs provided rather than a penalty to job efficiency?

Here's the livestream, in case anyone needs help finding it since I haven't seen it linked anywhere:
Reducing the miner output itself by 30% also means that researching on planets with exceptional quality minerals is a worse idea than poor quality minerals, which seems backwards.
In order to avoid people turning off the miner jobs, it would be better to put the "Engineers output bonus" on the miner jobs themselves, instead of per district.
I'd say there's an issue there where you then have to decide if the miners count as engineers, meaning having to decide if other engineer bonuses boost mineral production, or don't, in which case other engineer bonuses don't boost the research, and all the possible answers are slightly unintuitive or have weird balance issues.

I actually notice that the icon on the district has a little + on it, which I think means +jobs. So there's a tooltip mismatch there - the icons say it reduces the number of miner jobs provided by 30%, but the text says miner output. If it's the former that makes a lot more sense, since you'll want to be running as many miner jobs as possible to fuel the upkeep of as many researchers as possible but the total miners you can have mining at once goes down because a chunk of the mines are full of engineers poking rocks.
 
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while I can see what you are complaining about, I don't know that its all that big of a deal. At least I've enjoyed my time with the beta. And I've felt my planets were a lot more interesting than in 3.14. to be fair, that's not hard. But its still a step in the right direction.
The deal is that having 1 district type with 2 zones means that, unless you have full use to all its jobs, you are wasting your district investment and planet size by having undesired jobs instead of the desired ones, because you could've had 2 zones providing desired jobs instead. How is that a big deal? Take the most obvious example: CG, which normally come at expense of alloys for non-gestalt empires. The zones change impacts alloy/CG dynamic the heaviest, especially in early game (say, first 20-30 years, 3 planets). Zone mechanic impacts non-gestalts the most. Gestalt empires, on the other hand are much less impacted by zones, they have one less resource to manage.

In live, for example, the optimal player controls consumer goods through the time axis by playing with designations: stockpiling as much early on, and switching off CG production for a couple of decades later (usually, when they unlock megaforges), and/or playing with CG/alloy designations to have just enough CG, this allows a near perfect balance between alloys/cg, at expense of player attention: not playing attention will mean hitting a CG deficit situation. If you need your alloy planet on CG duty for, say 20-25% of the time, then you can have that exactly. This dynamic will be entirely gone.

The zone system heavily penalizes non-gestalt empires: in live you could just play with designations free of charge and trade alloy for cg production untaxed whenever you needed them. Now you'll have to play a zone mineral tax to switch one alloy zone to CG, and a further alloy and district tax, by losing away potential alloy jobs to excess cg jobs because the split is fixed 50/50 and is not granular. It's not a just matter of simply getting unwanted CG jobs, but that those jobs come at expense of alloy ones. Before, if you needed a planed on CG duty 25% of the time, you could have that. Now you lose 50% of district alloy jobs, and then get to priorize/depriorize the remaining 50% cg jobs as needed. Before a non-gestalt could have 75-80% of their alloy planet's alloy output by switching designations, now it will be a fixed 50%, is a 25-30% difference not a big deal?

Why not just have a separate, additional planet just for CG? This was not needed before, and will be necessary because losing 50% on the alloy planet is waay too much, but those will be additional costs in time and resources that a gestalt would not need to incur. A new planet costs resources, and what makes it valuable are the pops. Static pop growth per planet is gone, so a planet's inherent value is lessened. The colony ship, resettling pops and building urban districts cost resources, districts cost a lot of time too. Pops that are resettled to a CG planet are still pops that could've produced alloys, and each incurs an energy tax to resettle. And even then, again, a extra CG planet would still incur wasted pops and resources on excess CG, because fine-tuning would incur resettlement costs. And in the new system non-capital planets get only 1 zone slot until later tech, halving the value of their urban district, so you are even further penalized if you want a separate CG planet, for the first couple of decades, maybe even three if you're unlucky with tech rolls and don't get colonial centralization. Granular control of CG/Alloys dynamic is going to be much more expensive, and it's something that does not impact gestalts nearly as much.

If, instead:
a) each zone provided double jobs but district slots were spent on upgrading individual zones instead, maybe in some kind of point allocation system, where you could freely distribute the invested district development as the player wanted or,
b) there were two urban districts, with 1 zone each, and zones provided double jobs
A non-gestalt player could have, say 15 alloy districts and 3 cg ones on their capital. It would still be less player control than designations, but better than the what is currently intended to be.
 
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the optimal player controls
after spending all this time in these discussions and watching live streams I am 75% certain that this is the problem. The 'optimal player' does not appear to be the target of these changes. I don't play optimally, and I enjoy it. Most of the people who have posted about enjoying the game also appear to play sub-optimally most of the time. The changes made to the beta seem focused on the complaints of people who weren't trying to play perfectly and optimally as well.

So I think I can say, the goal is not to make optimal play better, the goal is to make the sub-optimal play of the average player more enjoyable. Or at least as unchanged from 3.14 as possible while providing tools for whatever future upgrades they have in mind.
The deal is that having 1 district type with 2 zones means that, unless you have full use to all its jobs, you are wasting your district investment and planet size by having undesired jobs instead of the desired ones, because you could've had 2 zones providing desired jobs instead. How is that a big deal? Take the most obvious example: CG, which normally come at expense of alloys for non-gestalt empires. The zones change impacts alloy/CG dynamic the heaviest, especially in early game (say, first 20-30 years, 3 planets). Zone mechanic impacts non-gestalts the most. Gestalt empires, on the other hand are much less impacted by zones, they have one less resource to manage.

In live, for example, the optimal player controls consumer goods through the time axis by playing with designations: stockpiling as much early on, and switching off CG production for a couple of decades later (usually, when they unlock megaforges), and/or playing with CG/alloy designations to have just enough CG, this allows a near perfect balance between alloys/cg, at expense of player attention: not playing attention will mean hitting a CG deficit situation. If you need your alloy planet on CG duty for, say 20-25% of the time, then you can have that exactly. This dynamic will be entirely gone.

The zone system heavily penalizes non-gestalt empires: in live you could just play with designations free of charge and trade alloy for cg production untaxed whenever you needed them. Now you'll have to play a zone mineral tax to switch one alloy zone to CG, and a further alloy and district tax, by losing away potential alloy jobs to excess cg jobs because the split is fixed 50/50 and is not granular. It's not a just matter of simply getting unwanted CG jobs, but that those jobs come at expense of alloy ones. Before, if you needed a planed on CG duty 25% of the time, you could have that. Now you lose 50% of district alloy jobs, and then get to priorize/depriorize the remaining 50% cg jobs as needed. Before a non-gestalt could have 75-80% of their alloy planet's alloy output by switching designations, now it will be a fixed 50%, is a 25-30% difference not a big deal?

Why not just have a separate, additional planet just for CG? This was not needed before, and will be necessary because losing 50% on the alloy planet is waay too much, but those will be additional costs in time and resources that a gestalt would not need to incur. A new planet costs resources, and what makes it valuable are the pops. Static pop growth per planet is gone, so a planet's inherent value is lessened. The colony ship, resettling pops and building urban districts cost resources, districts cost a lot of time too. Pops that are resettled to a CG planet are still pops that could've produced alloys, and each incurs an energy tax to resettle. And even then, again, a extra CG planet would still incur wasted pops and resources on excess CG, because fine-tuning would incur resettlement costs. And in the new system non-capital planets get only 1 zone slot until later tech, halving the value of their urban district, so you are even further penalized if you want a separate CG planet, for the first couple of decades, maybe even three if you're unlucky with tech rolls and don't get colonial centralization. Granular control of CG/Alloys dynamic is going to be much more expensive, and it's something that does not impact gestalts nearly as much.

If, instead:
a) each zone provided double jobs but district slots were spent on upgrading individual zones instead, maybe in some kind of point allocation system, where you could freely distribute the invested district development as the player wanted or,
b) there were two urban districts, with 1 zone each, and zones provided double jobs
A non-gestalt player could have, say 15 alloy districts and 3 cg ones on their capital. It would still be less player control than designations, but better than the what is currently intended to be.
To further highlight what I'm trying to suggest and probably put a big spotlight on my differences with you when it comes to play style let me explain how I handle this kind of thing. Hopefully this makes it clear why I struggle to do more than say 'I've heard this, but don't get this.'

I've never messed with designations because I needed 'more' alloys or 'more' cg. The only exception might have been the first time I went from 'decent conditions' to 'utopian abundance' in one fail swoop without thinking about the cg costs. But I don't actually remember what I did then, because it was a while ago. In fact, I rarely if ever change those designations, only when I'm changing the focus of a planet--long term changes mind you--or the auto-designation was especially stupid. which happens more often than not with factory/foundry popping up.

If I need more CG I'll either build an industrial district, or I'll build a cg factory. Or I'll buy a couple thousand off the market and deal with the problem later. I stopped caring about having my CG above +10 about the same time I realized I didn't enjoy building mono-planets despite all the advice about 'getting better' saying you want dedicated worlds. And I rarely have bothered focusing on building more cg if its in the green, unless I'm looking to improve research or unity for some reason.

The same goes for alloys except my mid game goals are more like +50ish, with a lot more variability. I actually don't always mind if it drops down to the 40s or 30s. of course, I'm a fairly peaceful player so that's not a great set up for more aggressive builds, but my tendency to go ham on the market if I need to does a lot to compensate for emergencies or large projects.

The few times I've ended up with large surpluses of alloys (3.14 mind you) I end up selling it to fund other resource usages. so even when things get above the +50 mark, I'm not worried about anything really.

Pretty much everything else is very much the same. I build things slowly and mostly because in 3.14 any unemployment is bad. In 4.0 the beta suggests I will be building even less, only adding new jobs as things start feeling a little slow on the empire level. Something that is a lot nicer and in my limited experience with the beta, a lot more enjoyable to play. now I don't feel forced to build something to keep unemployment down, now I can make sure I have what I want while saving pops and resources for what is coming.

Nothing is more annoying than knowing your about to go on a spending spree in a few years--research coming in or war of conquest soon to end or whatever--and being forced to spend all those resources because five planets grew all at the same time. It's happened way more often than makes sense.

The result of all this is that your complaints sound like such a rare eventuality that I can't really imagine a time where I'd want to do as you suggested. Much less actually do it. I have had planets I designated as CG only, but they were never really industrial planets, because I almost always ended up building bucket loads of buildings instead of more CG. Meaning I am very happy that mixing like this is more encouraged than in previous version of the game. I've never really bothered with pure alloy planets, much less pure alloy planets which are primarily producing alloys. So, this is a pretty uninteresting choice in my experience.
 
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Do you not understand or do you understand but don't consider it a good tradeoff? They're very different complaints. I understand why you want discrete districts I just have different priorities.
If the benefit is "instead of hitting 1 button that gets you 1/3 X of a bunch of jobs, instead of giving you 1x of one job" then I guess I don't see the value in it. It gives you less fine control over your planets. And if I'm wrong about that benefit, am I seeing one that others are not.
 
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I'd say there's an issue there where you then have to decide if the miners count as engineers, meaning having to decide if other engineer bonuses boost mineral production, or don't, in which case other engineer bonuses don't boost the research, and all the possible answers are slightly unintuitive or have weird balance issues.
No no, I actually didn't mean putting engineering research production on the miners themselves.

But if the intention is for each mining district to boost engineers by 10% as in the tooltip, they could instead make for example each miner provide a 0.1% "engineer boost".

Edit: like the jobs production bonus on the telepath jobs provided by the psi corps, rather than on the building itself:
1744472304598.png


So mostly the same effect, but you have to actually let the jobs be filled.
 
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If the benefit is "instead of hitting 1 button that gets you 1/3 X of a bunch of jobs, instead of giving you 1x of one job" then I guess I don't see the value in it. It gives you less fine control over your planets. And if I'm wrong about that benefit, am I seeing one that others are not.
I don't want to derail the thread so I'll send you a PM later.
No no, I actually didn't mean putting engineering research production on the miners themselves.

But if the intention is for each mining district to boost engineers by 10% as in the tooltip, they could instead make for example each miner provide a 0.1% "engineer boost". So mostly the same effect, but you have to actually let the jobs be filled.
Oh right yes. The issue there would be performance - jobs impacting the output of jobs sounds like it could need to be recalculated frequently (and should that 0.1% scale with miner happiness?) whereas putting it per district just requires a recalculation every time you add or remove a district.

If it's supposed to be 30% less miners rather than miners being 30% worse then it all hangs together much better. Is that worth ating a dev to clarify on? I'm not sure of the forums etiquette on that outside of dev diaries.
 
Oh right yes. The issue there would be performance - jobs impacting the output of jobs sounds like it could need to be recalculated frequently (and should that 0.1% scale with miner happiness?) whereas putting it per district just requires a recalculation every time you add or remove a district.
Hmmm, I have no idea actually. But from first impressions it shouldn't be any more expensive than the calculations on all the other productions from pops. In any case it all gets pooled together at the planet level. The only difference is the modifiers need to be calculated before the real resources.

But a dev would have to confirm.
 
Hmmm, I have no idea actually. But from first impressions it shouldn't be any more expensive than the calculations on all the other productions from pops. In any case it all gets pooled together at the planet level. The only difference is the modifiers need to be calculated before the real resources.

But a dev would have to confirm.
Yes, but the +0.1% engineer modifier is not in itself producing anything. A job generating a percentage modifier that is then applied to another job means the second job's output needs to be calculated after, and based on, the first job's output.
 
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Yes, but the +0.1% engineer modifier is not in itself producing anything. A job generating a percentage modifier that is then applied to another job means the second job's output needs to be calculated after, and based on, the first job's output.
There are a few event jobs that already do this. I know I saw Gas Plant Engineers around recently, they give +% exotic gases from jobs.
 
Huh whaddaya know. You're right.

------

My biggest concern from the stream is I'm still seeing the +200 resource job buildings in there, which is just baffling.
If they're not eventually removed from the game, the best I can hope for is that it will be very obvious the other possible buildings are better in the vast majority of cases.

Still, this incentives the weird situation of building at least one of every district on every planet, because you get so much more jobs out of that one district slot.
 
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Yeah, so I thought about how they've changed City/Urban Districts and I think my thoughts on it can be summarized as this:

If this is actually "improving" the game by adding limitations and less choices, why don't we do the same thing for the 3 basic resource districts as well? Just drop it down to 2 sets of Districts, and then use "specializations" for the rest:

Double-Mixed Zones.jpg


To be clear, I don't like this idea at all. But maybe for the folks that don't seem to understand why some of us don't like the move to Zones/Specializations, this will illustrate why we don't like it at all.
 
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Yeah, so I thought about how they've changed City/Urban Districts and I think my thoughts on it can be summarized as this:

If this is actually "improving" the game by adding limitations and less choices, why don't we do the same thing for the 3 basic resource districts as well? Just drop it down to 2 sets of Districts, and then use "specializations" for the rest:

View attachment 1280452

To be clear, I don't like this idea at all. But maybe for the folks that don't seem to understand why some of us don't like the move to Zones/Specializations, this will illustrate why we don't like it at all.
My complaint about this one is that it would make the city and rural districts to similar and thus ruin the differences between them and thus making planets rather uninteresting as a result. Somehow, I don't think this is your problem with city districts.

A better analogy would be to combine the rural districts into one and make the city districts 3. But then you run into the question about planets with really good soil for farming or lots of minerals. Or whatever. Still ignoring that, I'd argue that we have a lot more resources that are made in cities than in rural districts so it might even make a kind of sense. It would certainly be interesting to test.

I didn't think I failed to understand the problem, until now.

I thought that the complaint was that the change reduced a level of control that you regularly use. And that makes the game harder to play and enjoy. As I understand it, those of us who don't mind or even enjoy the games either don't use that level of control, or don't use it often. So, its loss is of minimal concern.

I said it in a different post but, I feel like this update is intended to make the average player--role play or just sub-optimal--have as little disruption of their normal play style as possible while giving the devs more tools to play with.
 
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