• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion tbh. Since, in a way, they have just taken away from "optimizing".

Before the rework you could, due to the combination of Districts and Buildings produce almost everything on a planet with only size and deposits being a factor.. factors that still exist.

After the Update and without taking beta-feedback into consideration you would have less different rescources you could have produced on a planet ( which they adressed with "spammable buildings" ) and an economy-crash each time you upgrade your housing-zone ( which they adressed by downscaling to two special-zones and 100 jobs per zone meaning its a 2:2 worker/specialist-conversion it used to be in the old system ). Apart from it they slapped a "trade"-tax on good's you don't produce locally.

so with mixed planets virtually getting nothing new but slapping a trade-tax on specialized planets i would like to question how you come to the conclusion that they wanted to improve on non-specialisation rather than reduce specialization?

but even in that case they failed due to how they changed the buildings.. i find myself in the same boat as Norse here.. with specializing my planets even more since they didn't really take away any reasoning on why we specialized them in the first place but due to the boosting-buildings combined with the building-type-limitations added even more reason to specialize. which in turn is where the band-aid-solution of spamable buildings shifts the balance even more to specializing.

are you sure you are not just blinded by the change how building-slots are unlocked and how we essentially get most/all of them from the beginning while being in the honey-moon-phase of a new update?
Another issue is that efficiency/productivity buildings and Planetary Designations also make mono-builds more effective. Then the cost they added is a new system, one which you can get around by building an All-Traders planet with buildings and designations as well.

What might actually make multi-district builds used more often isn't forcing it through "Zones" but by changing how Planetary Designations work. Instead of using them to benefit a single job, they could have made them give benefits for a single "resource stream".

Stuff like "Mining Planet: +10% Mineral Output from Miners" pushes you to monoplanets. Whereas Rural/Fringe Planets incentives mixed builds, or an Industrial World that gave +5% bonuses to Mining, Energy, Factory, and Forge workers.

Or make the Tech World give +5% benefits in output to Minerals, and -10% upkeep of Consumer Goods and Researcher jobs. Along with the Trade system, that would give an incentive to build an efficient vertical stream from Mining to Research. And then the Buildings either add more jobs where needed, or give bonuses to single resources along the way. That incentives either mixed builds or mono-planets if you want.

Especially when Planetary Features come into play, you can still select a mixed planet designation and only take advantage of one of the bonuses and jam it full of a single district if you want. Example: use that Industrial Designation for the mining bonus, on a planet with one of the "rich minerals" bonus, add optimization buildings, and use trade for other planets to pay for it: still a viable build. Having Mining Planet on there just piles on incentives.

I'm not saying this is the right answer, more than pointing out that a bunch of design decisions incentivize mono-planet builds. And using a punishment via trade and lumping districts together is a less effective solution than adjusting some of these incentives.
 
Last edited:
  • 10
Reactions:
Another issue is that efficiency/productivity buildings and Planetary Designations also make mono-builds more effective. Then the cost they added is a new system, one which you can get around by building an All-Traders planet with buildings and designations as well.
Funny thing though, they didn't make multi production planets any more effective than they currently are. They did however.

- Decrease carrying capacity of planets due to much lower job numbers, as in 35-45% at times.
- Add the need for trade specific planets to pay the new additional upkeep we have to pay on top of all the other upkeeps.
- Lowered player control over what is produced and how much.
- Made a new way more messy UI that is menus within menus.
- Threw the current balance out of whack due to lower production across the board.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Funny thing though, they didn't make multi production planets any more effective than they currently are. They did however.

- Decrease carrying capacity of planets due to much lower job numbers, as in 35-45% at times.
- Add the need for trade specific planets to pay the new additional upkeep we have to pay on top of all the other upkeeps.
- Lowered player control over what is produced and how much.
- Made a new way more messy UI that is menus within menus.
- Threw the current balance out of whack due to lower production across the board.
My sole disagreement is lower production necessarily being a bad thing.

The game has been getting aggressive powercreep for years, from dimensional fleets to Machine Age. The economic balance is out of whack and production is lower, but the balance isn't put of whack solely because production is lower - it's mainly because the current economic balance is simply not a complete product.
 
  • 6
Reactions:
- Threw the current balance out of whack due to lower production across the board.

getting back to conspiracy-theorys.. i rather say this is more likely the agenda. after all they also did mention that they intend to do something against tech-rush and reducing both the carrying-capacity and the advanced-rescource-output would fit that goal.
 
*sigh* You really make it hard to see you arguing in good faith.

Your argument right now evolves arround that you can't use the planet as a mining-planet due to it having only one mineral-district.. which is, quite frankly an extreme case but let run with it. Your argument is that you have less choice because you have one less outcome you can choose.

My argument is that its not because the choice i ( have to) make remains the same.. what do i want to do with the planet? If the Planet has no mining-district but more energy-district's than size than i am going to make it simply an energy-planet or a factory-planet the amount of choices and the choice i made remained the same.. i just had one less outcome to choose from.

Where the real value of limiting deposit's lies is not this extreme-case you put before me but in the simple fact that deposits are limited and disconnected from the planet-size in the first place. this in turn leads to situations where i can have built all the mining-districts the planet can support but still potential left untapped which then leads to me having to decide if i leave it untapped or what else i do with it, adding another choice to the initial one. which in turn CAN lead to the question if the mining-specialisation of the planet is still the best choice i can make or if another is better. Which in turn leads me to having MORE choices.
*smiles beatifically* so we are in agreement that the game would be poorer if you could solve a mineral shortage by just slapping down a mineral district somewhere you arbitrarily decided was going to be your mineral planet. And that how much food or energy you want to build having constraints on a particular planet is a good thing. That the on-planet constraints imposed by planetary features bring something to the game, and do not prevent you from being "able to meet the challanges the game gives us."

But comparable, though very different, constraints on the construction of t2/t3 resource districts renders the game unplayable?

Why so?

Or is it just these constraints? Would you accept any form of constraint? Is there any scenario where you wanted to build a specific amount of CG jobs and it required more thought than slapping "New CG district" a specific number of times that you would accept?

If not, why not?

If so, what specifically about these constraints do you dislike? Because so far you have only described your displeasure in terms of being against the concept of less simplistic problem solving.

If every planet came with a built in CG district limit, alloy district limit, research district limit, and unity district limit would you be more or less upset with that as a constraint? I think it would be silly, but for very specific reasons I can easily articulate in more detail than "I need to be able to adapt in the very specific way I am used to and I will not adapt to a new way of adapting".
From all your argumentation you seem to labour under the assumption that "limiting outcome" alway equals "limiting choices to make". And you are so focued on the outcome that you ignore the process on how we make choices in the first place. which is here the ne zone-problem comes in and why "spammable" building's/district's are a must.
There are choices and there are meaningful choices.

Being low on CG so you build a CG plant isn't a meaningful "choice". It's a reaction. But it's the only "choice" you will acknowledge ass acceptable for an economy model. I want to make actual, impactful choices with lasting effects. Choosing to load up the Science half of a city with Science output boosters (not the spam buildings, the other buildings) and the CG half with upkeep and pop reducers creates a much more science focused planet than choosing to do the reverse. Choosing to load up a Unity planet the other way around is not only a choice in itself, which will impact every time I upgrade that planet, but if I later react to a need for more CG I now have an interesting choice - do I boost unity and cg, science and cg, or both? Maybe I want the science more than the unity but the structure I chose for these planets means that I need to choose between the cg I want and a lot of science of the amount of cg I want and a little unity. Or maybe I will choose to build one of both. If I'm a relatively small empire, maybe I'll choose not to build any additional districts and replace my science cg planet's cg reducer with an output booster. These are choices. Interesting choices being tangibly impacted by previous choices.

If you separate the city districts these choices become a lot less interesting. If you can react by just building a CG district then the relative output totals you previously chose between the two buildings don't actually matter - and the optimal "choice" will probably degenerate to just building the output reducers, which would make it a false "choice". There's no choosing between cg and science vs cg and unity, just which planet do I build the CG district on.

"I have a planet with cg districts and science districts and I built a cg district but no science district and nobody stopped me" - where's the meaningful choices? Where's the game?
Stellaris at its core is still an RNG-game with diverse play-styles with different situation's and/or empires having different requirements. the ability to fine-tune our economy to those requirements has to be at the core of the game. If we can't we wont be able to meet the challanges the game gives us. A game where you can expand a lot at the beginning has a different early rescource-requirement to a game where you are boxed in at the beginning.. be it through space-monsters or other empires.
By trivialising the solutions to these scenarios you trivialise the scenarios themselves. If you solve every scenario with a hammer every scenario just becomes a different colour of nail.
But hey.. lets make a thought-game for a moment. Lets go with your approach to argue with an extreme about all or nothing and take up Xaelyns idea of putting ALL Zones together after all.. its the same idea right? put all rescource-production into one district.. so why make a distinction between basic rescources and advanced rescources? surely if you don't need to fine-tune the advanced resources then why should you need to fine-tune basic-rescources.
For the same reason that I think every planet having a distinct alloy district limit based on planet features would be a silly way to implement alloy district limits. t2/t3 resources are manufactured by the player, so the constraints you need to work within being consequences of player choices makes thematic sense. Your choices for producing rural resources are constrained by the layout of the planet, and your choices for producing manufactured resources are constrained by the combined city zone zone layouts [i[chosen[/i] by the player. Split city districts are just a couple of districts that happen to be on the same planet, but if they always advance together then you have a game setup where you, the player, manufacture your own constraints to abide by.

What a powerful choice to have.
 
  • 7
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
but if they always advance together then you have a game setup where you, the player, manufacture your own constraints to abide by.

What a powerful choice to have.
Gonna cut to the chase here: but this isn't a constraint I manufacture. It's one the devs manufactured, and put on me, after I had already bought the game, to solve a problem that isn't a problem, and doesn't even solve that problem, and also comes with marked quality of life decreases.

To call this a 'powerful choice' is... I hope you're being sarcastic.
 
  • 5Like
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
*smiles beatifically* so we are in agreement that the game would be poorer if you could solve a mineral shortage by just slapping down a mineral district somewhere you arbitrarily decided was going to be your mineral planet. And that how much food or energy you want to build having constraints on a particular planet is a good thing. That the on-planet constraints imposed by planetary features bring something to the game, and do not prevent you from being "able to meet the challanges the game gives us."

Again with the word-twisting and bad faith argumentation huh? very well i shall answer one last time more for the observers rather than you and then disengage with any discussion with you since its obvious that nothing productive can come out of it.

First of the premise of the descission was not to how to address a mineral-shortage but what to built on a planet, your example brought in a planet with a conctraint of only one mineral-deposit.. thats not a planet you would even consider as a solution the the problem you now shifted the goal-post too. which also means you are ignoring that the descission on how to address a mineral-shortage has other solution's which enriches the game. In the same vein the enrichment of a planet with limited deposits comes not from the limitation itself but from the further potential of the planet... something that has, when the mineral-districts are full.. have nothing more to do with any descission about how to adress a mineral-shortage. a descission that is mostly independend from the mineral-issue.


But comparable, though very different, constraints on the construction of t2/t3 resource districts renders the game unplayable?

Why so?

Or is it just these constraints? Would you accept any form of constraint? Is there any scenario where you wanted to build a specific amount of CG jobs and it required more thought than slapping "New CG district" a specific number of times that you would accept?

If not, why not?

If so, what specifically about these constraints do you dislike? Because so far you have only described your displeasure in terms of being against the concept of less simplistic problem solving.

If every planet came with a built in CG district limit, alloy district limit, research district limit, and unity district limit would you be more or less upset with that as a constraint? I think it would be silly, but for very specific reasons I can easily articulate in more detail than "I need to be able to adapt in the very specific way I am used to and I will not adapt to a new way of adapting".

There are choices and there are meaningful choices.

Okay lets forget for a moment the building that you hate and i find a bad band-aid-solution.

those are neither comparable constraints nor is there a choice to make. If you have a deficit you need to adress it your choice is how to do it. For minerals you have several possibilitys other then "just upgrade your mineral-district" while for GC.. well guess what other than buy it from the market and all its downsides you can only upgrade your consumer-district.

But to buy it you would have to increase trade.. in other words you would just upgrade your trade-district rather then the GC-district.. but there is still no choice to make here because you would have to upgrade a district to adress the issue. coupling the district's t2 and t3 district together doesn't change anything.. it doesn't change the action you take ( upgrading the district ) nor do you have to any meaningfull restriction.. on the contrary.. by bundeling the districts together with the zone you actually take away choices and constrictions since the different zones no longer compete with each other for planet-size. and in that train of thought we can now remember the production-buildings we both don't like that give us another option to address consumer-good-production other than "just upgrading the district".. so.. good job justifying them i guess?

and yes i did have to make meaningfull descissions in regards to GC's in the old system.. namely if i want to "expand" to a new planet when my old planet is full or if i put one down on a planet i have already colonized and be less efficient with it. as long as you can only increase GC-production by upgrading the already existing district there is no "meaningful" choice to make. It doesn't matter in that regard if the district is coupled to other districts or is on its own. the coupling only takes away other choices it doesn't add any.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Being low on CG so you build a CG plant isn't a meaningful "choice". It's a reaction. But it's the only "choice" you will acknowledge ass acceptable for an economy model. I want to make actual, impactful choices with lasting effects. Choosing to load up the Science half of a city with Science output boosters (not the spam buildings, the other buildings) and the CG half with upkeep and pop reducers creates a much more science focused planet than choosing to do the reverse. Choosing to load up a Unity planet the other way around is not only a choice in itself, which will impact every time I upgrade that planet, but if I later react to a need for more CG I now have an interesting choice - do I boost unity and cg, science and cg, or both? Maybe I want the science more than the unity but the structure I chose for these planets means that I need to choose between the cg I want and a lot of science of the amount of cg I want and a little unity. Or maybe I will choose to build one of both. If I'm a relatively small empire, maybe I'll choose not to build any additional districts and replace my science cg planet's cg reducer with an output booster. These are choices. Interesting choices being tangibly impacted by previous choices.

If you separate the city districts these choices become a lot less interesting. If you can react by just building a CG district then the relative output totals you previously chose between the two buildings don't actually matter - and the optimal "choice" will probably degenerate to just building the output reducers, which would make it a false "choice". There's no choosing between cg and science vs cg and unity, just which planet do I build the CG district on.

"I have a planet with cg districts and science districts and I built a cg district but no science district and nobody stopped me" - where's the meaningful choices? Where's the game?

By trivialising the solutions to these scenarios you trivialise the scenarios themselves. If you solve every scenario with a hammer every scenario just becomes a different colour of nail.

For the same reason that I think every planet having a distinct alloy district limit based on planet features would be a silly way to implement alloy district limits. t2/t3 resources are manufactured by the player, so the constraints you need to work within being consequences of player choices makes thematic sense. Your choices for producing rural resources are constrained by the layout of the planet, and your choices for producing manufactured resources are constrained by the combined city zone zone layouts [i[chosen[/i] by the player. Split city districts are just a couple of districts that happen to be on the same planet, but if they always advance together then you have a game setup where you, the player, manufacture your own constraints to abide by.

What a powerful choice to have.

And this right here is proof that you have actually no Idea what you are talking about.. and why GC is actually such a bad example on your part. The fact that you actually understood that the increase of GC is a ALWAYS a reactive measure but fail to understand how this play's into your example of Science/GC , Unity/GC is baffeling..

Yes you are right.. upgrading GC is never a meaningful choice.. because its a REQUIREMENT. GC isn't something that you want to overproduce at a large margin like most other resources.. because GC isn't something that is supposed to strongly fluctuate its an Upkeep-rescource not a production/end-rescource. Meaning your choice of "do i built a GC/Unity zone" or "do i built a research/GC-zone" is a choice between Research and Unity. It isn't even a good way to adress a GC-deficit that can come from pops since part of the increased GC-production is going to the Unity or research.

In the same vein the descission which boost-building you use for which district/zone is completly irrelevant to the question of the districts being stuck together or not.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Again with the word-twisting and bad faith argumentation huh? very well i shall answer one last time more for the observers rather than you and then disengage with any discussion with you since its obvious that nothing productive can come out of it.

First of the premise of the descission was not to how to address a mineral-shortage but what to built on a planet, your example brought in a planet with a conctraint of only one mineral-deposit.. thats not a planet you would even consider as a solution the the problem you now shifted the goal-post too. which also means you are ignoring that the descission on how to address a mineral-shortage has other solution's which enriches the game. In the same vein the enrichment of a planet with limited deposits comes not from the limitation itself but from the further potential of the planet... something that has, when the mineral-districts are full.. have nothing more to do with any descission about how to adress a mineral-shortage. a descission that is mostly independend from the mineral-issue.

Okay lets forget for a moment the building that you hate and i find a bad band-aid-solution.

those are neither comparable constraints nor is there a choice to make. If you have a deficit you need to adress it your choice is how to do it. For minerals you have several possibilitys other then "just upgrade your mineral-district" while for GC.. well guess what other than buy it from the market and all its downsides you can only upgrade your consumer-district.

But to buy it you would have to increase trade.. in other words you would just upgrade your trade-district rather then the GC-district.. but there is still no choice to make here because you would have to upgrade a district to adress the issue. coupling the district's t2 and t3 district together doesn't change anything.. it doesn't change the action you take ( upgrading the district ) nor do you have to any meaningfull restriction.. on the contrary.. by bundeling the districts together with the zone you actually take away choices and constrictions since the different zones no longer compete with each other for planet-size. and in that train of thought we can now remember the production-buildings we both don't like that give us another option to address consumer-good-production other than "just upgrading the district".. so.. good job justifying them i guess?

and yes i did have to make meaningfull descissions in regards to GC's in the old system.. namely if i want to "expand" to a new planet when my old planet is full or if i put one down on a planet i have already colonized and be less efficient with it. as long as you can only increase GC-production by upgrading the already existing district there is no "meaningful" choice to make. It doesn't matter in that regard if the district is coupled to other districts or is on its own. the coupling only takes away other choices it doesn't add any.
OK while phrasing what I was about to type here I think I realised where some miscommunication is coming from. There's a lot of ways to use the word "choice". As I said in my last post, there's choices, meaningful choices, false choices, and so on. Removing the ability to build the districts disconnected from each other removes a "choice" to build one district or the other but, in my opinion, introduces more meaningful choices. Exactly what you were saying here:
Your example is the exact opposite of fewer choices. If i can just built as much districts of one type i can on a planet, then i don't need to really make a choice since specialisation of a planet is always the best course of action due to modifieres. Your Counter-example however makes it so that i have a limited ammount of rescources on a planet, forcing me to make a choice of not fully utilizing the plant or what else i want to produce on that planet and if the mining-planet-spec is still the best one i can make..
The ability to build as many rural districts as you want arguably gives you more "choice" in the sense of being able to "choose" to build whatever you want wherever you want, but in reality it collapses to fairly degenerate choices. By removing a large number of "choices" from the rural districts you restrict the player to a much smaller number of real choices.

I thought the choice you were upset about giving up with the dual district model was the "choice" over which district to upgrade. I now think you're saying that connecting the city districts leads to a degenerate tactic (monoplanets again?) and that's why you say it removes choice. If I understand your reasoning correctly, your concern is that since only monoplanets allow you the level of fine control you feel is necessary to meet the demands of the game therefore it degenerates to monoplanets for manufactured goods, effectively removing the choice to build mixed manufacturing.

And that's where are real disconnect is - I really don't think that's true at all. Oh I think it might be very possible to screw it up that badly (I think building two of the same zone on the same planet giving you six building slots is a big concern there, and the existing planetary designation system needs to be revised, and of course those stupid +200 buildings), but manufacturing monoplanets are going to chew through trade like nobody's business and diverse planets.. won't. That's why I've been using CG as an example - it's the most straightforward chain that makes the fullest use of the logistics system. Keeping your science and your unity seperate from your CG is going to make you more flexible, but keeping them together loses you less trade. Alloys have a lesser but still significant benefit due to robot manufacturing and, like CG, can have SRs attached to them, and so on.

You believe that you need to be able to build t2/t3 resources individually in order to play the game, and therefore the game degenerates to monoplanets and/or +200 buildings. I don't think you need to build t2/t3 resources individually in order to play the game, and thanks to the deficit and revised trade system the increased fine control of a monoplanet will be substantially offset by the reduced logistics costs of a diverse planet.

Or at least that's my revised understanding of your objection. If I still do not understand what choices you think are being taken away by the dual city district please let me know.
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
I thought the choice you were upset about giving up with the dual district model was the "choice" over which district to upgrade. I now think you're saying that connecting the city districts leads to a degenerate tactic (monoplanets again?) and that's why you say it removes choice. If I understand your reasoning correctly, your concern is that since only monoplanets allow you the level of fine control you feel is necessary to meet the demands of the game therefore it degenerates to monoplanets for manufactured goods, effectively removing the choice to build mixed manufacturing.

Yes you are correct that is one of the changes i am upset about. What you have not yet realized is why i see how it takes away choices. As i alluded earlier.. a game is supposed to be a well oiled maschine with many parts working with each other.

Let me try again with your GC example but this time expand on the scope a bit. In the old System where research was coupled to buildings which in turn was coupled to housing-districts and i could choose between how much GC i want to make in comparison to research. In the new System that choice for nuance is mostly gone due to the fact that upgrading the GC-zone will automatically upgrade the research-zone as well. There is no ratio i can play arround with. At the same time housing also increases the growth-ceiling so for me one consideration was always.. do i want to be more tight with my housing, saving on upkeep and empire-size or do i want more popgowth.

In the current built there is no such consideration. But lets get back to your example. One of the big differences between Research and GC is, that you can never have enough research while your need for GC will always be between 10 and 80 ( except for when you built up for a change to utopian abundance ). In other words if you couple your GC with your research you will either end up overproducing GC by a margin or underproducing Research that you shoot yourself in the foot.

In reverse i still haven't seen an argument where connecting the district lead to more choices. Your argument this time around resolves around mono-production and dual-production-planets. With the argument for dual-production-planets being that they need less trade to function ( more to that later ). However the point is.. i can make a dual-production planet without the districts glued to each other. If they are not glued to each other i have more choice because now both the GC and the Research-district are in competition to each other for the district-cap.

Even your earlier argument that you would have to choose if you upgrade your Research/GC or your Unity/GC-Planet is in praxis a nonargument because you still would have to choose on which planet you want to upgrade your GC.. the research or the unity-planet.. only with the added consideration that with disconnected districts you would now either sacrifice potential furture unity or potential future research-production for an increase in GC.

Now lets address the issue with the mono and the multi-production-planets. As you have pointed out, the ascencion needs to be adressed but i consider it WiP.. considering that research-ascencion still gives research-lab-buildspeed but that is neither here nor there.

If we recall, the team's intention is for buildings to act more like a production-modifier rather than as the production per se.. however due to its nature those modifier, combined with other limitations like building-slots and.. pop's... a limiting factor we haven't talked about yet. Yes the limitation of Pop's is one more reason why you want to mono-planet.

Pops are usually the most limiting factor of your economy mid to lategame ( and one of the reasons why you can't compare "arbitrary" GC-limitations with the lack of mineral-districts on a planet). In the old System that meant that, if you wanted to play smart, you would deactivate any clerk-jobs since the "pop/production-ratio" wasn't there. Of course role-playing-reasons and special cases like a hyper-focused trade-empire are exceptions to that rule. In the new versions with even more modifier you can stack up, you have even more reason's to mono-produce on a planet.

Of course one could say "we just need adjust the penalty in this case" but other factors in this game work against it.. one of those factors is that you are incentivised to overproduce trade in the same vein you are incentivised to overproduce energy... due to the fluctuation of the rescource when you undock your ships for war and other uses you have for it.

So in other Words with mono-planets we have more production/pop, a better buildingslot/modifier ration and we are more flexible with adjusting our production to the want's and need's of our empire for the downside of spending a bit more of a rescource you are meant to overproduce anyway. That is way to onesided on account of mono-producing planets.


So i argue that disconnecting the districts and giving the production-flexibility back to them, is a rather important step to redressing this imbalance in reasoning due to doing so having no discernable down-side. since you know... connecting the district has no upside either.
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Wow, things have moved on. but here we go.
I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion tbh. Since, in a way, they have just taken away from "optimizing".

Before the rework you could, due to the combination of Districts and Buildings produce almost everything on a planet with only size and deposits being a factor.. factors that still exist.

After the Update and without taking beta-feedback into consideration you would have less different rescources you could have produced on a planet ( which they adressed with "spammable buildings" ) and an economy-crash each time you upgrade your housing-zone ( which they adressed by downscaling to two special-zones and 100 jobs per zone meaning its a 2:2 worker/specialist-conversion it used to be in the old system ). Apart from it they slapped a "trade"-tax on good's you don't produce locally.

so with mixed planets virtually getting nothing new but slapping a trade-tax on specialized planets i would like to question how you come to the conclusion that they wanted to improve on non-specialisation rather than reduce specialization?

but even in that case they failed due to how they changed the buildings.. i find myself in the same boat as Norse here.. with specializing my planets even more since they didn't really take away any reasoning on why we specialized them in the first place but due to the boosting-buildings combined with the building-type-limitations added even more reason to specialize. which in turn is where the band-aid-solution of spamable buildings shifts the balance even more to specializing.

are you sure you are not just blinded by the change how building-slots are unlocked and how we essentially get most/all of them from the beginning while being in the honey-moon-phase of a new update?
I'm not using 'optimized' and 'non-optimized' as synonyms for 'mono-planets' and 'mixed planets.' though the paragraph out quoted didn't make this clear. So, I apologize for that there mistake.

In my mind, the goal is to make role play and low to mid skill play more viable. This is regardless of mono-planet or mixed planets. And as a result, we get clear specializations/zones that are right there in front of us. When we build them, we know this will heavily impact on full development going for. Giving city districts specialized names for each combination is a suggestion that they are focused on this as well.

This is what I mean when I say they are focusing on non-optimal play. I think they are focusing on players who aren't trying to maximize their economics. maybe these players are focused on building planets that make sense for their role play. Or that simply don't know what optimal play is and are just feeling their way through.

The trade deficit kind of makes sense anyways, but more importantly its just kind of pushing people to explore other solutions than only one thing on one planet. which plays into non-optimal play, because you are not looking for the 'perfect' solution. your looking for a solution that works, and still drives enjoyment.
Yes you are correct that is one of the changes i am upset about. What you have not yet realized is why i see how it takes away choices. As i alluded earlier.. a game is supposed to be a well oiled maschine with many parts working with each other.
Just as a note, I find your 'well-oiled machine' idea of a game to be idealistic and unnecessary. As long as I can enjoy it without having to squeeze every tiny perfection out of the game I'll enjoy it.

'well oiled' machine isn't necessary, though it can be nice. As long as the squeaking and grinding gears don't prevent me from enjoying casual play I don't care.

maybe a better argument is that 4.0 is focused on new players and casual players. not people who take it more seriously than that.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
Yes you are correct that is one of the changes i am upset about. What you have not yet realized is why i see how it takes away choices. As i alluded earlier.. a game is supposed to be a well oiled maschine with many parts working with each other.

Let me try again with your GC example but this time expand on the scope a bit. In the old System where research was coupled to buildings which in turn was coupled to housing-districts and i could choose between how much GC i want to make in comparison to research. In the new System that choice for nuance is mostly gone due to the fact that upgrading the GC-zone will automatically upgrade the research-zone as well.
Oh that's the original thing I thought you were complaining about. Not going to lie, I'm pretty disappointed right now.
There is no ratio i can play arround with.
You. Manipulate. The. Ratios. With. The. Output. And. Input. Manipulating. Buildings.

You unlock them with tech. Play the beta for more than five seconds and you will encounter one.
At the same time housing also increases the growth-ceiling so for me one consideration was always.. do i want to be more tight with my housing, saving on upkeep and empire-size or do i want more popgowth.

In the current built there is no such consideration. But lets get back to your example. One of the big differences between Research and GC is, that you can never have enough research while your need for GC will always be between 10 and 80 ( except for when you built up for a change to utopian abundance ). In other words if you couple your GC with your research you will either end up overproducing GC by a margin or underproducing Research that you shoot yourself in the foot.
Only if you're bad at managing your ratios. Get good.
In reverse i still haven't seen an argument where connecting the district lead to more choices.
There are choices and there are meaningful choices.

Being low on CG so you build a CG plant isn't a meaningful "choice". It's a reaction. But it's the only "choice" you will acknowledge ass acceptable for an economy model. I want to make actual, impactful choices with lasting effects. Choosing to load up the Science half of a city with Science output boosters (not the spam buildings, the other buildings) and the CG half with upkeep and pop reducers creates a much more science focused planet than choosing to do the reverse. Choosing to load up a Unity planet the other way around is not only a choice in itself, which will impact every time I upgrade that planet, but if I later react to a need for more CG I now have an interesting choice - do I boost unity and cg, science and cg, or both? Maybe I want the science more than the unity but the structure I chose for these planets means that I need to choose between the cg I want and a lot of science of the amount of cg I want and a little unity. Or maybe I will choose to build one of both. If I'm a relatively small empire, maybe I'll choose not to build any additional districts and replace my science cg planet's cg reducer with an output booster. These are choices. Interesting choices being tangibly impacted by previous choices.

If you separate the city districts these choices become a lot less interesting. If you can react by just building a CG district then the relative output totals you previously chose between the two buildings don't actually matter - and the optimal "choice" will probably degenerate to just building the output reducers, which would make it a false "choice". There's no choosing between cg and science vs cg and unity, just which planet do I build the CG district on.

"I have a planet with cg districts and science districts and I built a cg district but no science district and nobody stopped me" - where's the meaningful choices? Where's the game?


Your argument this time around
Was based on giving you the benefit of the doubt and thinking you were bringing something interesting to the table instead of the same tired old "Oh no I can't add random jobs on the fly and that's the only way to manage an economy".

I swear if these forums had their way we'd still be watching the AI fail to handle tiles.

E: I'm honestly crushed here. I thought I'd originally misunderstood you and you were actually making an interesting, nuanced point about degenerate strategies, but I was right the first time and it's just more of the same depressing refusal to look beyond the familiar paradigm. The original derail may have ruined the thread but this, this ruined my night.
 
Last edited:
  • 8
  • 3
Reactions:
Wow, things have moved on. but here we go.

I'm not using 'optimized' and 'non-optimized' as synonyms for 'mono-planets' and 'mixed planets.' though the paragraph out quoted didn't make this clear. So, I apologize for that there mistake.

In my mind, the goal is to make role play and low to mid skill play more viable. This is regardless of mono-planet or mixed planets. And as a result, we get clear specializations/zones that are right there in front of us. When we build them, we know this will heavily impact on full development going for. Giving city districts specialized names for each combination is a suggestion that they are focused on this as well.

This is what I mean when I say they are focusing on non-optimal play. I think they are focusing on players who aren't trying to maximize their economics. maybe these players are focused on building planets that make sense for their role play. Or that simply don't know what optimal play is and are just feeling their way through.

The trade deficit kind of makes sense anyways, but more importantly its just kind of pushing people to explore other solutions than only one thing on one planet. which plays into non-optimal play, because you are not looking for the 'perfect' solution. your looking for a solution that works, and still drives enjoyment.

Just as a note, I find your 'well-oiled machine' idea of a game to be idealistic and unnecessary. As long as I can enjoy it without having to squeeze every tiny perfection out of the game I'll enjoy it.

'well oiled' machine isn't necessary, though it can be nice. As long as the squeaking and grinding gears don't prevent me from enjoying casual play I don't care.

maybe a better argument is that 4.0 is focused on new players and casual players. not people who take it more seriously than that.

the thing is... they can achieve all that without glueing the district's together.. i would even argue that its detrimental for new players in the long run since they no longer have to think about what they upgrade and what the opportunity-costs are meaning we have a auto-ship-designer-situation all over again.. so when the crisis comes around for a new player, not only will their ship-design be crap but their economy will also be crap.

the specialized "zone names" are dependend on what production-zone's you built in those two zone-slots if you disconnect the zone you would still built those zone's you would just upgrade them each on their own to better fit the requirements of your empire.

I just don't see how taking away the fine control over production and which part of the zone you upgrade will lead to more enjoyment.. i don't even consider it more immersive in terms of roleplay considering that if the toaster-corporation ( GC ) expand's it hardly means that the Virus-Researchlab on the other end of the city expands as well.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
the thing is... they can achieve all that without glueing the district's together.. i would even argue that its detrimental for new players in the long run since they no longer have to think about what they upgrade and what the opportunity-costs are meaning we have a auto-ship-designer-situation all over again.. so when the crisis comes around for a new player, not only will their ship-design be crap but their economy will also be crap.

the specialized "zone names" are dependend on what production-zone's you built in those two zone-slots if you disconnect the zone you would still built those zone's you would just upgrade them each on their own to better fit the requirements of your empire.

I just don't see how taking away the fine control over production and which part of the zone you upgrade will lead to more enjoyment.. i don't even consider it more immersive in terms of roleplay considering that if the toaster-corporation ( GC ) expand's it hardly means that the Virus-Researchlab on the other end of the city expands as well.
It surprises me how often I feel the need to say this but: I've never argued this was the only way to do things.

I do disagree with the 'never have to think about what to upgrade.' maybe players don't have to think about what to upgrade once they've decided which planet to upgrade. but those decisions need not be made on a per planet bases. Especially not with the recent improvements to auto-migration.

You decide if creating cg you will be upgrading planet 3 when you put a cg zone there. When you need cg, you decide which of your planets will be best for your current needs, and upgrade that one. if you need only a little bit, you might upgrade a planet that also has a unity or research zone. if you need more you will upgrade one of your other planets. maybe the trade/cg one. or a new colony that still only has one zone. or maybe that fortress/cg world that you see as front and center for the 'wargames broadcasts' the biggest entertainment show in your military empire.

The decision has been moved back a step. not removed entirely.

From a role play perspective, you aren't funding a single minor corporation on a single planet. You are funding the expansion of local infrastructure which is being taken advantage of the corporations--or whatever works for your head canon--that was previously given incentive to set up on that planet.

but the major benefit to role play that I see isn't the raw mechanics, it's the way city districts are emphasized to the player. unless you are building up all of your rural districts, the primary view of your planets is based on choices that you've made that have long term impacts on the planet. Not just the features that some RNG has applied to your planet. Of course, you could have taken those features into account, so it's not like they lack value, they just no longer need to compete for the spotlight. In this case I don't think a split district would work as well.

I don't know that its a bad thing, it depends on what the developers want out of their system. But I've got to guess they considered something similar early on, given that's basically how habitats and Ecumenopolis work in 4.0/beta. (how do you make that word plural? I feel like it should be Ecumenopoli.) So something about it caused the devs to reject the idea.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
It surprises me how often I feel the need to say this but: I've never argued this was the only way to do things.
Yea but you keep missing the that we fail to see a single positive aspect in doing it this way while we see more than one negativ aspect in doing it this way. And all your arguments so far have only been either "headcanon" which is a terrible reasoning for a change such as this in my opinion. or a line of argumentation that would've achieved the exact results if you split up the zones. Even with your latest example i can just point out.. that yea but the "long-termdescission" what zone's you built on planet is still one you have to make even if you split the upgrade.

most of or argumentation is phrased/built in a manner that let one think that you believe we argue that one still doesn't have the two zone-limit to contend with which is evident in how often i could just point an say "thats true for split zones as well".

And until someone can point out some more.. tangible reasoning other than "headcanon" my conclusion about the glued district's remain's the same.

The system fail's to achieve what it set out to do ( making mixed planets more viable ) only by the margin of putting all the zones together with not a single upsides but a lot of downsides.

But hey.. at least now we have that -75% housing-trait we can make use of.. oh wait.
 
  • 5
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Was based on giving you the benefit of the doubt and thinking you were bringing something interesting to the table instead of the same tired old "Oh no I can't add random jobs on the fly and that's the only way to manage an economy".

I swear if these forums had their way we'd still be watching the AI fail to handle tiles.

E: I'm honestly crushed here. I thought I'd originally misunderstood you and you were actually making an interesting, nuanced point about degenerate strategies, but I was right the first time and it's just more of the same depressing refusal to look beyond the familiar paradigm. The original derail may have ruined the thread but this, this ruined my night.
Oy, you're getting increasingly disrespectful of other people's opinions. While arguing on the exact same topic that the moderator kindly suggested we bring to an end on the other thread. Which is why I haven't picked up that topic here (nor will I).

All I will mention is that the comparison with the change away from tiles is absurd, since that was a far larger change. It was easier to see the upsides, and any simple downsides were not so obvious. This current change is far smaller, so it's easier for people to see what is worsening in their eyes.

Friendly advice: if it's ruining your night so much, maybe you've discussed it enough? I am sure the developers have seen your and my opinion on this at this point.
 
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions: