Yes and no. It's (almost) never easy to conquer land. It's the same as with all border areas. Like Norway and Ireland, only richer.
I think Drake's ideas are very good, and would gladly have those in rule.
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I think Drake's ideas are very good, and would gladly have those in rule.
oe starts very strong in any 1419 start due to its historical leaders.
just reminding you that upon sieging cairo,( and alexandria + delta+ syria) in some molds)it brings the inheritance of mameluks no later then 1520's. and in no mod mameluks can do better then the oe in the first 100years of game play if both human players are on the same play "level".
having mameluks is more important then having persia as drake says . however it all comes down to HOW the oe player chooses to expand at start or soon therafter regardless of the mod. no player can challange ottos earlly on except for venice and maybe austria, thus the oe is free to hammer on mameluks non-stop and keeping them in a poor economic state until the inheritance event comes along. basically only a venice-mameluks 50-100years alliance could effectivelly counter that if not counting the earlly tech random outcomes from fights.
but then again what type of game everyone is looking for?
the best alternative that was used for the above, was to let mameluks be human until it gets inherited by oe( loosing the major war). of course mameluks would have a chance to survive but not something to be forced upon the oe and OTHER players at all costs( mameluks will not be seen as a second "prussia"). in this circumstances, oe is still weaken even if wins due to its constant wars with mameluks earlly on( that are a must in order to keep mameluks "down").
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persia is not a viable oe-counter in any mods( exception beeing agceep). this has been "tested" in many mp's before. mameluks is much better but it does requier at least a venice-mameluk strong alliance for the earlly game ( usually mameluks will grant certain rights to venice later on in exchange for getting its naval support and thus beeing able to almost always keep oe in chek, having to defend only the syrian area during the earlly land tech, and thus suffering less pillage and economic slowdown).
that was NOT the main problem. what you say could had been easilly avoided IF played on "very hard" settings and thus stronglly limit and restrict oe going above bb limit with no bb wars penalty. also oe should have had gotten much less cores then the watckboi map offers, and even the ones it has should been released in stages( groslly ahistorical). byzhantum was in no way a bonus for oe at any stage since its provinces needed be converted, etc( taking resources away from quick further expansions at no penalty costs). oe without owning thrace earlly on does not stand a chance to develop well by 1500's as compared with how austria will.
yes but persia can always ask oe to force convert them earlly on
. and that would not be an illigal move as far as rules go perisa and OE cooperating is much more LIKELLY then oe and mameluks cooperating; at least that has been the case in most mps played...makes sense since the alexandria cot is much more important for oe then any other earlly on + oe can NEVER withstand the temptation of gaining 13+ provinces at no costs( war inheritance of mameluks). perisa usually develops a status quo with OE where both players realize they would much better if fully "respect" each others. they will simplly drow borders everywhere in asia earlly on since their COMMON objective will be to keep europeans out
mameluks - oe scenario has been tested a lot in the past and it works. albeit in extrawatck mod is the mameluks that might become stronger then oe if venice-mameluks alliance and earlly african expansion
-if 1337-1419 start oe-mameluks best option
- if 1520+ start then persia - oe would work as well ( since the scenario you talk about IS more likelly to happen,but quiet impossible to predict it as you do in an earlly start...)
also if thinking to adopt an oe-persia scenario then "updating" an alternative monarch file for persia (to trgger upon certain size conditions for example) would certanlly work.
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OE doesn't start that strong. Or anyway not not nearly as strong as in a 1453-start. And with the Mameluks starting with a large, mostly state-religion empire against the mostly orthodox OE, I'd say the one decent leader OE has before Mehmed II does not give the OE enough advantage to overcome that.
Not to mention the Mameluks start with a Cot, while the OE still has to manage to get one.
Venice and Mameluks can easily crush OE early on if they work together.
But indeed, only OE's neighbours can beat them early on...just like it is with any other major early on.
One way to contain Ottoman expansion (and everyone else, really) is giving out cores gradually and playing on VH (BB decreases more slowly + BB wars if they try to diploannex some huge khanate, like OE did to the Golden Horde and Chagatais in WATKABAOI).
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the event to inherit mamlucks won't have any effect if mamlucks is played so doesn't matter much tbh
Yes please contact me so we can test the conn. I'll be back online in about 2 hours ready to test.
some mods yes, but once cairo/nile/delta/alexandria/syria/lebanon/aleppo are sieged there the former mameluks player bows out(maybe switch country) and a rehost with mameluks as ai is requiered, thus inheritance for oe once ingame again
as for solving the french possible huge expansion within a few years holland can be played by human from start , begining as Brabant. simplly add the "become holland" even from agceep and the agceep monarch file as well, for brabant, regardless of map/mod. brabant has dutch and french culture(or should) in most mods/maps and could be an efficent country to be played by a human. all assuming that the HYW plays somehow as historical( england and france fighting each other off and not dividing brabant, hehehe).
brabant is much better then burgundy in this area becouse it leaves the rhine provinces to be contested at least by 3 humans (burgundy usually ends up beeing divided by france and austria in vanilla at least thus a human will be much more "hated" as burgundy then he would as brabant
brabant is much better then burgundy in this area becouse it leaves the rhine provinces to be contested at least by 3 humans (burgundy usually ends up beeing divided by france and austria in vanilla at least thus a human will be much more "hated" as burgundy then he would as brabant
some mods yes, but once cairo/nile/delta/alexandria/syria/lebanon/aleppo are sieged there the former mameluks player bows out(maybe switch country) and a rehost with mameluks as ai is requiered, thus inheritance for oe once ingame again
and why would the mamluck player do such a thing ? the only advantage ottos have atstart is general so could just give mamlucks a 4shock to
ok...lets see...
venice at most can bother the oe with regards to the straights. also, unless minting like nuts a venice player will have huge disconfort in raising troops(25 ducats for 1k cavalery). unless absolute luck in the random battles outcome an invasion by anatolia would be very upractical for venice earlly on, not to mentione her loosing time in gaining the italian minors before france and spain do so as well
moving on, mameluks CAN invade oe but their troops will soon run out of steam even if their initial invasion would be successful( a human would not play as the ai in the sense that would not just engage in any fights mameluks would like them to and the opposite). the oe will simplly win any invasion due to its superior militarry sliders and manpower( mameluks has VERY low manpower due to wrong culture/no cores. of course the OE might need to take a loan or 2 in the worst case scenario, but nothing it can not handle.
oe only needs to dow byz right at start and annex( there is absolutelly nopthing mameluks or venice can do about it this earlly...). the cot event triggers right after regardless if mameluks keeps ottos at war or not...just the capital move is requiered for oe to be at peace...
the above scenario(wich usually happens if all players at the same "level" of eu2 mp) brings the oe -french alliance to forefront and it gives it a real purpose from start to finish IF the players follow even remotelly the historical course. so it wont be just austria vs france or ottos; will be france/oe vs mameluks/venice vs austria/spain(maybe).
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we talking much later in game when the event should trigger(1500 to 1520); of COURSE that should be an intital rule where IF ottomans win the war mameluks will be inherited. but if mameluk player manages to WITHOLD oe attempts for a DEFINED period of years(10y or 20y , etc) then the event shall be slept and the mameluks will "rock on" further"
both players have 80+ years to avoid/make sure that the event happen/does not happen.
ok...lets see...
venice at most can bother the oe with regards to the straights. also, unless minting like nuts a venice player will have huge disconfort in raising troops(25 ducats for 1k cavalery). unless absolute luck in the random battles outcome an invasion by anatolia would be very upractical for venice earlly on, not to mentione her loosing time in gaining the italian minors before france and spain do so as well
moving on, mameluks CAN invade oe but their troops will soon run out of steam even if their initial invasion would be successful( a human would not play as the ai in the sense that would not just engage in any fights mameluks would like them to and the opposite). the oe will simplly win any invasion due to its superior militarry sliders and manpower( mameluks has VERY low manpower due to wrong culture/no cores. of course the OE might need to take a loan or 2 in the worst case scenario, but nothing it can not handle.
oe only needs to dow byz right at start and annex( there is absolutelly nopthing mameluks or venice can do about it this earlly...). the cot event triggers right after regardless if mameluks keeps ottos at war or not...just the capital move is requiered for oe to be at peace...
the above scenario(wich usually happens if all players at the same "level" of eu2 mp) brings the oe -french alliance to forefront and it gives it a real purpose from start to finish IF the players follow even remotelly the historical course. so it wont be just austria vs france or ottos; will be france/oe vs mameluks/venice vs austria/spain(maybe).
I see you didn't really check the scenario.
Mameluks, who have arabic culture, do have some decent MP.
And OE can't annex Byz that easy. Byz starts with two provs.
Mameluks can choose to block OE, meaning OE will have to win a war if it wants any chance of expanding.
Edit: In what game was Mameluks-OE tested? And was that a WatK game?
What games with Persia and OE saw Persian-Ottoman cooperation?
That seems like a really bad rule.we talking much later in game when the event should trigger(1500 to 1520); of COURSE that should be an intital rule where IF ottomans win the war mameluks will be inherited. but if mameluk player manages to WITHOLD oe attempts for a DEFINED period of years(10y or 20y , etc) then the event shall be slept and the mameluks will "rock on" further"
I really don't see the problem with Mameluks. They start out larger than OE in 1419, so them being annexing in the first session just ain't going to happen.
If I will go to OE and KJ to Mameluks we can guarantee constant war till XVIII/XIX :rofl: