• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Jaronpinochet: Don't feel bad that people didn't agree with your Islam events. You have had some good ideas, such as the one you just suggested for denmark asserting a claim over Vinland. And your other events about the norwegian ship and the abundance of fish were good idea, they may need more work, but try to be open to criticism so that people can suggest how things can be improved.

For example, MKJ and Havard just told me how I could improve one of my events, and now I think it is better than before because of the changes. So don't feel bad when someone says something could be improved in your events...
 
Originally posted by Havard
Capt. K.:
I would certainly like an alternative option on those random conversion events...

What sort of alternative option do you mean?

Edit: If you meant that the second one should be triggered by them being catholic, I completely agree. It was only an accident that I left it as Hinduism (from copying the first one) I changed that...
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Mad King James


Not exactly, 'Pagan' in eu2 refers more to Animist beliefs like Wicca or Finnish shamanism, or of course, North American paganism. What we are trying to simulate is Polytheism, and the only pure polytheistic religion in EU2 is Hinduism. Hindus and Asa are closer religions structurally than say, Catholics and Jews, so it's close enough :) Even if they DO encounter indian Hindus, it would still work, since polytheistic nations usually got along great :) [/B]

Historically polytheistic nations were just as enthusiastic about killing one another as Christian nations were. They just tended not to use religion as an excuse.

Christians may be somewhat more bloodthirsty than most, but only somewhat.

Max
 
Originally posted by maxpublic


Historically polytheistic nations were just as enthusiastic about killing one another as Christian nations were. They just tended not to use religion as an excuse.

Christians may be somewhat more bloodthirsty than most, but only somewhat.

Max

Without a doubt! I'm just saying two polytheistic religions like hindu and asa would have WAY less culture clash than say, a polytheistic and monotheistic religions, like hindu and moslem or hindu and christian.
 
A couple of more things. Don't want to mess with y'all, so just ignore me if you don't care for my comments here. I'm just a fan of Vinland - was once a real Norse history buff - and am real interested in what you're doing.

- I think someone posted the dp slider settings earlier, but frankly, rifling through 16 pages to find it is rather daunting. I'd just suggest that the Norse were not only known for their flamboyant viking expeditions, but also as the greatest traders in Europe prior to the rise of the Italian city-states. Furthermore, their complete lack of a centralized government (remember, the 'kings' of the Norse weren't kings as we think of them, but more a 'jarl of jarls', and only so long as the other jarls allowed them to be) means that tariffs and the like were virtually unknown prior to the rise of a strong centralized government.

Add to this that Vinland has no contact with any real 'nation' for 400 years and the idea of mercantilism would never develop. I believe that in this case the free trade slider should be maxed out simply because there's no one around to practice mercantilism against, nor would it be a concept familiar to Vinlanders. And the Vinlanders have nothing to fear in terms of trade competition with the Skraelings since the Skraelings can't really compete with them technologically (in fact, the freer the trade the more the Vinlanders would benefit - they could get raw materials from the Skraelings and concentrate on specialization in finished goods).

- a second point I'd make is that - and this is curious, given the fact that the Norse were consumate traders - the Vinlanders knew of the Skraelings but for whatever reason seemed to have no contact with them at all. No trading, no war, no interaction. This is just plain bizarre - not very Norse-like at all. Of course, they must have had *some* contact since the Skraelings eventually attacked and wiped them out but the attitude of the Vinlanders seems to be 'the Skraelings are there but it's barely worth the mention'.

In your scenario you're looking at a Vinland that actively made and fostered contact with the Skraelings (in this case, the Micmac). If this were true the Norse would trade with the Micmac - probably providing finished goods in return for raw materials like food, furs, and timber. What this means is that:

a) the Micmac, at least, would get steel weapons and armor, effectively raising their tech level and essentially wiping out their whiteman disadvantage. Four hundred years of trade, interaction, and exchange of knowledge - they should be pretty close to on par with the Vinlanders after all that time. And they might very well be more organized because of it. Also, given the warlike nature of the Micmac they most likely would've used their nifty armor and weapons to destroy and enslave their enemies. I doubt there'd be a Huron 'nation' in the area after this time. So when the Europeans arrive they'd have to deal with two relatively advanced nations, not just one - more if the secret of forging steel escaped the Micmac to other tribes, or if the Norse decided to trade with the Huron or Lenape or others.

b) this close contact with the Micmac would no doubt result in some blending of cultures, as well as intermarriage. The Norse were anything but racial purists and were happy to interbreed with anyone they came across, so much so they made a habit of packing home thralls wherever they went at the drop of a hat. Especially young, pretty female thralls. Which means you might want to rethink the religion of the Micmac in order to allow 'royal' marriages.

Max
 
Originally posted by maxpublic
A couple of more things. Don't want to mess with y'all, so just ignore me if you don't care for my comments here. I'm just a fan of Vinland - was once a real Norse history buff - and am real interested in what you're doing.

- I think someone posted the dp slider settings earlier, but frankly, rifling through 16 pages to find it is rather daunting. I'd just suggest that the Norse were not only known for their flamboyant viking expeditions, but also as the greatest traders in Europe prior to the rise of the Italian city-states. Furthermore, their complete lack of a centralized government (remember, the 'kings' of the Norse weren't kings as we think of them, but more a 'jarl of jarls', and only so long as the other jarls allowed them to be) means that tariffs and the like were virtually unknown prior to the rise of a strong centralized government.

Here are the current DP slider settings, as taken from the scenario file:

aristocracy = 4
centralization = 4
innovative = 5
mercantilism = 5
offensive = 7
land = 3
quality = 3
serfdom = 2

Originally posted by maxpublic
Add to this that Vinland has no contact with any real 'nation' for 400 years and the idea of mercantilism would never develop. I believe that in this case the free trade slider should be maxed out simply because there's no one around to practice mercantilism against, nor would it be a concept familiar to Vinlanders. And the Vinlanders have nothing to fear in terms of trade competition with the Skraelings since the Skraelings can't really compete with them technologically (in fact, the freer the trade the more the Vinlanders would benefit - they could get raw materials from the Skraelings and concentrate on specialization in finished goods).

Earlier in the thread we decided not to give them too much of a free trade setting to prevent them from getting too many colonists.

Originally posted by maxpublic
- a second point I'd make is that - and this is curious, given the fact that the Norse were consumate traders - the Vinlanders knew of the Skraelings but for whatever reason seemed to have no contact with them at all. No trading, no war, no interaction. This is just plain bizarre - not very Norse-like at all. Of course, they must have had *some* contact since the Skraelings eventually attacked and wiped them out but the attitude of the Vinlanders seems to be 'the Skraelings are there but it's barely worth the mention'.

Don't forget that the sagas themselves do mention contact and interaction with Skraelings. And of course, the Norse artifacts found in native sites dating from this era. Clearly there was a mixture of both peaceful trade and war between the two.

Originally posted by maxpublic
In your scenario you're looking at a Vinland that actively made and fostered contact with the Skraelings (in this case, the Micmac). If this were true the Norse would trade with the Micmac - probably providing finished goods in return for raw materials like food, furs, and timber. What this means is that:

a) the Micmac, at least, would get steel weapons and armor, effectively raising their tech level and essentially wiping out their whiteman disadvantage. Four hundred years of trade, interaction, and exchange of knowledge - they should be pretty close to on par with the Vinlanders after all that time. And they might very well be more organized because of it. Also, given the warlike nature of the Micmac they most likely would've used their nifty armor and weapons to destroy and enslave their enemies. I doubt there'd be a Huron 'nation' in the area after this time. So when the Europeans arrive they'd have to deal with two relatively advanced nations, not just one - more if the secret of forging steel escaped the Micmac to other tribes, or if the Norse decided to trade with the Huron or Lenape or others.

I heard that the Vinlanders were smart and refused to give neither Iron weapons nor the knowledge of making them to the natives. They did conduct trade, but this was more limited to foods such as milk and beer. Iron tools were traded, but not weapons... and another thing to keep in mind, is that Iron is not particularly abundant in these areas, I think even the Vinlanders had to import their tools from Europe.

Originally posted by maxpublic
b) this close contact with the Micmac would no doubt result in some blending of cultures, as well as intermarriage. The Norse were anything but racial purists and were happy to interbreed with anyone they came across, so much so they made a habit of packing home thralls wherever they went at the drop of a hat. Especially young, pretty female thralls. Which means you might want to rethink the religion of the Micmac in order to allow 'royal' marriages.

Max

Very true. There is some who believe that the Vinlanders were not driven off the continent as is the common belief, but rather they were peacefully assimilated ethnically into the natives. There are historical accounts of post Colombus European explorers encountering natives with Blue eyes and other Norse characteristics, in the eastern coast. Unfortunately, this mystery will likely never be solved, as the Natives on the eastern coast have been driven to extinction for the most part.

Would be interesting to read more on this... :)
 
Originally posted by maxpublic
A couple of more things. Don't want to mess with y'all, so just ignore me if you don't care for my comments here. I'm just a fan of Vinland - was once a real Norse history buff - and am real interested in what you're doing.

Max

Its good to have excellent worded and well thought out comments :) and your last post was equally as well written. I think you have made some extremely good points here. Regarding your points:

1. Given the relationship and sheer amount of time i agree perhaps they should have tech group change?

2. The Micmac didnt "truly" display any warlike tendencies (historically) until the early 1600's when in support of french settlers attacked many english settlements. The Huron nation in my mind "should" exist purely because in 1000 when we assume these vinlanders arrived both the micmac and huron tribes were small "nations" who only thinly held there lands. By 1419, the lands have reached there present boundaries with only occassional clashes. Don't forget alot of the early history of this scenario will "justifiably" involve the superior micmac warring against the huron.

3. I had an idea of several options, one of which was a trigger "at some time" to check the religon of the vinlanders and execute a similar random provincial conversion or state conversion. I am debating whether perhaps the "island of contact" Isle Royal might be the same religon as the vinlanders but a micmac land. This could be the middle ground for such a conversion.

4. I also agree with the slider ideas. Seems pretty logical to me.

I like your ideas mate.
 
Giving Micmac a new tech group may be a little extreme. Wouldn't it be better to just give them a slight whiteman value? this would represent their contact with Vinland (which is what the whiteman value is supposed to represent, by the way). It would boost their tech research rate significantly, but not so much as to place them far ahead of the other native nations.

And about Micmac-Vinland relations at startup. Why not give them a dynastic and/or military alliance? We definitely want to give them both a trade agreement... as they are meant to be major trade partners.

Does anyone know if it is possible to edit religions in such a way to allow Hinduism to intermarry with Pagan? This would be a great solution if it were possible... And while we are on the subject of altering religion, do you think the bonuses/penalties of Hinduism should be altered in any way? Like trade efficiency, morale, techspeed, etc...

Would be very nice to remove the Konfucian, Buddhist, and Muslim religion sliders and give them a Pagan one instead. If it is possible....
 
i dont know how to pronounce skraeling but i am guessing its something like scrayling. the event wouldnt make sense unless the word sounded like 'skrawling', thus crawling. So I will think of more and better events. Like 'MicMac Paddy Whack Give a Skraeling a bone this old Huron went running home" :cool: