When is AoW4?

[Kitschy]

Thanks for the screen, now i dont have to search for it.

Honestly, i dont even know if era has a well defined amount of time needed. It can be quite freely used i think. Like "the era of stormbringers" could refer to the time when they were the most op, so between primal fury and eldritch realms.
I think an era of reexploration could just be a few years aswell. Adventurers exploring the new landscape and such.

I dont remember the canon ending of aow3s necro campaign, but i think it was also about wks invading.

If i had to make a timeline, my take probably would look like this:

Werlac opens seal
Magic fully returns. People can ascend, world terraforms. People have to find New homes. Decline of empires starts.
After the World opened up again, wks return to conquer (it makes sense magic comes before individuals, just like your new channel fills with water before ships arrive).
Huge war of the remaining parts of elven court and Commonwealth vs wizardkings. During this, Edward and sundren dissapear. Edward swallowed by the void in his juggernaut. Sundren to hunt down lithyl and other threats.

In the meantime, all the empires crumble. New countries and alliances get forged.

According to sundren, there were decades between 3 and start of 4. Considering that Alfred was a child and is now 40ish, i would say 30 to 50 years have passed since aow3. Then we start valley of wonders as Alfred. Though, its possible a century passed, if lithyl came late to the Party. Then lithyl would have entered athla way after the opening of the seal. Wait, sundren said lithyl Was one of the first.

Yeap, that's my understanding too.
I did completely forget about re-exploration era until this thread popped up and the whole protective/final seal thing but that one could be me overanalyzing or misunderstanding.

I'm pretty sure that Alfred became a Godir around the time of the initial story mission of Age of Wonder 4 because he is regarded as the unifier of Athla in the Oasis mission. In that mission you defeat Yaka and THEN you ascend, which suggests that Yaka is the last Godir standing of the invading Shad'rai alliance, because otherwise there would other 'unfinished business' to mop up that would keep you on Athla and you would not be able to just leave.

So the chronology goes something like this.

1. The final mission of Age of Wonders III Eternal Lords sees the World Gates opened by the Shadowborn.
2. The Shad'rai invade, led by Lithyl Nightweaver.
3. The Commonwealth and Elven Court both resist, but are weakened by a magical cataclysm unleased by the opening process itself and succumb to the invasion. Edward and Laryssa end up in the Astral Sea with their followers.
4. Sundren and Alfred lead the resistance to the Shad'rai.
5. One by one the Shad'rai are defeated and banished to the Astral Void.
6. Alfred rises to power over the humans of Athla and become regarded as the unifier of Athla.
7. The last Shadrai is defeated in the Valley of Wonders and the victor becomes a Godir.

A lot hinges on whether Alfred defeated Yaka or not in the Valley (in other words, whether he is the protagonist). If he doesn't, it is certainly possible that he became a Godir earlier, but 'unfinished business' suggests that he would not become a Godir until the last Shad'rai were defeated; though he could become a Godir and immediately return I suppose (depending on how it works).

In the into screen, Alfred appears to be a younger teenager, so something between 11-14. When he becomes a Godir, he is probably around 50-60, which suggests that the preliminary invasion to the game went on for around 50 years in total. This makes sense, because the Shad'rai cannot be defeated quickly if the Commonwealth and Elven Court are both destroyed, since they would have to have been defeated by a protracted 'guerilla' struggle rather than brute force.

It could have been Elderstone, but not necessarily is. Michelle was asked something like this on one of the streams "is Alfred the canonical protagonist of first mission?" and her response was close to "not necessarily, it could have been any Champ from Athla".

Also my impression Yaka wasn't really behaving like last man standing, more like someone playing with his food but I need to reread the interactions.

 

[Orinsul]

would yaka notice if he was the last standing, or would he just see that as being the victor?
Also, the story doesn't work if you have defeated a wizard king before, and Alfred definitely would have

 

[Blanch Warren]

Also my impression Yaka wasn't really behaving like last man standing, more like someone playing with his food but I need to reread the interactions.

No, that's how it reads. But then, without all this other information, I wouldn't have been able to interpret him as the last man standing in the first place. I would have assumed it was the start of the invasion. Or his, anyway. But then, I don't know how he got there.

 

[STARSDragoon]

I'm pretty sure that Alfred became a Godir around the time of the initial story mission of Age of Wonder 4 because he is regarded as the unifier of Athla in the Oasis mission. In that mission you defeat Yaka and THEN you ascend, which suggests that Yaka is the last Godir standing of the invading Shad'rai alliance, because otherwise there would other 'unfinished business' to mop up that would keep you on Athla and you would not be able to just leave.

So the chronology goes something like this.

1. The final mission of Age of Wonders III Eternal Lords sees the World Gates opened by the Shadowborn.
2. The Shad'rai invade, led by Lithyl Nightweaver.
3. The Commonwealth and Elven Court both resist, but are weakened by a magical cataclysm unleased by the opening process itself and succumb to the invasion. Edward and Laryssa end up in the Astral Sea with their followers.
4. Sundren and Alfred lead the resistance to the Shad'rai.
5. One by one the Shad'rai are defeated and banished to the Astral Void.
6. Alfred rises to power over the humans of Athla and become regarded as the unifier of Athla.
7. The last Shadrai is defeated in the Valley of Wonders and the victor becomes a Godir.

A lot hinges on whether Alfred defeated Yaka or not in the Valley (in other words, whether he is the protagonist). If he doesn't, it is certainly possible that he became a Godir earlier, but 'unfinished business' suggests that he would not become a Godir until the last Shad'rai were defeated; though he could become a Godir and immediately return I suppose (depending on how it works).

In the into screen, Alfred appears to be a younger teenager, so something between 11-14. When he becomes a Godir, he is probably around 50-60, which suggests that the preliminary invasion to the game went on for around 50 years in total. This makes sense, because the Shad'rai cannot be defeated quickly if the Commonwealth and Elven Court are both destroyed, since they would have to have been defeated by a protracted 'guerilla' struggle rather than brute force.

Nothing says ascending means leaving the realm. Ascending just means you are a fully fledged godir.

A seals victory for example has as flavor you are the only godir the realm knows for quite a while (i think eons is mentioned)

 

[Kitschy]

would yaka notice if he was the last standing, or would he just see that as being the victor?
Also, the story doesn't work if you have defeated a wizard king before, and Alfred definitely would have

Lol true, that is kinda Yaka thing to do.


Speaking about Yaka, there is not enough of him in the game and that is missed opportunity imo. So would be cool to have him in more missions or better yet get a realm trait with him, something like Ashen War but Yaka edition.

 

[STARSDragoon]

Lol true, that is kinda Yaka thing to do.


Speaking about Yaka, there is not enough of him in the game and that is missed opportunity imo. So would be cool to have him in more missions or better yet get a realm trait with him, something like Ashen War but Yaka edition.

I mostly agree. But istn Yaka an Ally in Greyolis?

 

[Kitschy]

I mostly agree. But istn Yaka an Ally in Greyolis?

Yeap he is there.

 

[Orinsul]

when you play Yaka you don't even get the statues 0/10 no statues
whats even the point?

 

[Blanch Warren]

when you play Yaka you don't even get the statues 0/10 no statues. Whats even the point?

That's odd. I thought I got them the time I played him.

 

[Orinsul]

That's odd. I thought I got them the time I played him.

oh! maybe I've just got a bug or its hit and miss? I'll have to keep playing him and see if I can get them. After the second game as him I gave up because, if not for statues why even yaka? why even live

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

It could have been Elderstone, but not necessarily is. Michelle was asked something like this on one of the streams "is Alfred the canonical protagonist of first mission?" and her response was close to "not necessarily, it could have been any Champ from Athla".

Also my impression Yaka wasn't really behaving like last man standing, more like someone playing with his food but I need to reread the interactions.

Yaka is too arrogant to let on that his position wasn't very good and based upon the small size of the map along with the weakness of his forces, it clearly is.

It is clear from the first story mission that you are not presently the head of some great empire. This means that the role of Alfred in defeating the Wizard Kings becomes much reduced if he is the protagonist, since all the other Shad'rai are clearly defeated at the beginning of that scenario, for otherwise we would have to remain on Athla instead of casually and unremarkably going to Magehaven to do whatever.

An Alfred protagonist means that to become the 'Unifier of Athla', Alfred must return as a Godir to Athla after Story Mission 1. But if he isn't the protoganism, then he can unify Athla as a mortal during the struggle against the Shad'rai and *then* become a Godir. Being the protagonist of Story Mission 1 greatly reduces Alfred's importance in the actual struggle against the Shad'rai and relegates him to a more political role of 'mopping up' rather than the warrior hero role he would otherwise have.

Nothing says ascending means leaving the realm. Ascending just means you are a fully fledged godir.

A seals victory for example has as flavor you are the only godir the realm knows for quite a while (i think eons is mentioned)

Other than the mission itself, which ends with you leaving the realm and going to Magehaven. I don't think returning to a world is very easy, because otherwise we would just constantly move resources over from our old maps to our new ones via Magehaven (and win the game as a result).

Everything points to our leaving at the end of a scenario being pretty significant an event. We go away, at least for a long time and start again somewhere else, leaving our former empire to govern itself in our absence, so I feel that winning the game is kind of a tragic event.

There isn't any kind of multi-world empire controlled by Godir from Magehaven.

 

[STARSDragoon]

Yaka is too arrogant to let on that his position wasn't very good and based upon the small size of the map along with the weakness of his forces, it clearly is.

It is clear from the first story mission that you are not presently the head of some great empire. This means that the role of Alfred in defeating the Wizard Kings becomes much reduced if he is the protagonist, since all the other Shad'rai are clearly defeated at the beginning of that scenario, for otherwise we would have to remain on Athla instead of casually and unremarkably going to Magehaven to do whatever.

An Alfred protagonist means that to become the 'Unifier of Athla', Alfred must return as a Godir to Athla after Story Mission 1. But if he isn't the protoganism, then he can unify Athla as a mortal during the struggle against the Shad'rai and *then* become a Godir. Being the protagonist of Story Mission 1 greatly reduces Alfred's importance in the actual struggle against the Shad'rai and relegates him to a more political role of 'mopping up' rather than the warrior hero role he would otherwise have.



Other than the mission itself, which ends with you leaving the realm and going to Magehaven. I don't think returning to a world is very easy, because otherwise we would just constantly move resources over from our old maps to our new ones via Magehaven (and win the game as a result).

Everything points to our leaving at the end of a scenario being pretty significant an event. We go away, at least for a long time and start again somewhere else, leaving our former empire to govern itself in our absence, so I feel that winning the game is kind of a tragic event.

There isn't any kind of multi-world empire controlled by Godir from Magehaven.

I dont think interpreting the games starting rules as an in lore explanation of it being hard to return to a realm is doing any good.

That would mean reaching the realm you desire would be very hard. Yet 7 out of 9 Story realms have us deliberately arriving in the realm we want to go to. In some cases (like grexolis, oasis and arcalot) even multiple godir with their retinue at the same time.

At best it is a point for it being hard to do meaningfull logistics via the worldgates. Maybe they need a lot of mana to stay open, so sending big armies and supplies is not feasable.

But it certainly is no issue to reach a desired destination. Otherwise we wouldnt see sundren in nearly every mission.

 

[Orinsul]

As I said on the last page, it doesnt make sense for Alfred to be the player in the first scenario, as you are leading a small tribe fleeing the war against the wizard kings through the mountains. that doesnt sound like Alfred, that sounds like refugees fleeing from Alfred's war.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

I dont think interpreting the games starting rules as an in lore explanation of it being hard to return to a realm is doing any good.

That would mean reaching the realm you desire would be very hard. Yet 7 out of 9 Story realms have us deliberately arriving in the realm we want to go to. In some cases (like grexolis, oasis and arcalot) even multiple godir with their retinue at the same time.

At best it is a point for it being hard to do meaningfull logistics via the worldgates. Maybe they need a lot of mana to stay open, so sending big armies and supplies is not feasable.

But it certainly is no issue to reach a desired destination. Otherwise we wouldnt see sundren in nearly every mission.

If you won the old game then you have access to essentially limitless mana and even if it took 10000 mana to move one elite unit from your old game world to your new game map then you would do so, since that one elite unit deployed in the early game rigs the game in your favour.

I never claimed that Godir could go to worlds that they choose to go to, I only believe that it is rather difficult for them to do so. That is why they need Magehaven and it is more than just a transit point between worlds, because they get stuck 'in transit' for lengthy periods of time.

Sundren may appear in your mission, but she cannot head back and forth to Magehaven and is clearly *stuck* on your world until you end the game. She also cannot go back to an 'old game', fetch some powerful items and then come back in a few turns.

I think the main problem is actually to do with time. The worlds all have their own timelines, separate from that of Magehaven and those of other worlds, but each Godir also has a personal timeline, one shared with a whole group of *other* Godir. The main difficulty with travelling from Magehaven is the risk of arriving before the collective Godir timeline within your destination world.

If the resulting grandfather paradox of going backwards in time is resolved by creating a parallel world, then if you go back in Athla's timeline to stop Meandor from ever existing by making sure that Inioch never marries Eleanor-Julia, you don't get to 'win' but rather you find yourselves in a parallel Athla of your own creation. It may be also the case that you cannot travel to Magehaven *from* a parallel timeline, so you are trapped there.

If this is the case, then the need for everyone to ensure they never arrive *before* anyone else in the local timeline complicates travel from Magehaven to the local worlds and reduces its ability to act as a transit point for moving stuff between worlds.

As I said on the last page, it doesnt make sense for Alfred to be the player in the first scenario, as you are leading a small tribe fleeing the war against the wizard kings through the mountains. that doesnt sound like Alfred, that sounds like refugees fleeing from Alfred's war.

Playing as Alfred demotes the character from main leader to side-act, but it does 'make sense' in that it is a coherent situation, ablaut one that completely alters a certain character's role in the canonical story.

If Alfred is the main character of Story Mission 1, then he must return to Athla after the game is completed in order to take over the aftermath. The struggle against the Wizard Kings did not have a single unified leader, Alfred was just one of the various minor leaders rather than THE leader.

 

[STARSDragoon]

If you won the old game then you have access to essentially limitless mana and even if it took 10000 mana to move one elite unit from your old game world to your new game map then you would do so, since that one elite unit deployed in the early game rigs the game in your favour.

I never claimed that Godir could go to worlds that they choose to go to, I only believe that it is rather difficult for them to do so. That is why they need Magehaven and it is more than just a transit point between worlds, because they get stuck 'in transit' for lengthy periods of time.

Sundren may appear in your mission, but she cannot head back and forth to Magehaven and is clearly *stuck* on your world until you end the game. She also cannot go back to an 'old game', fetch some powerful items and then come back in a few turns.

I think the main problem is actually to do with time. The worlds all have their own timelines, separate from that of Magehaven and those of other worlds, but each Godir also has a personal timeline, one shared with a whole group of *other* Godir. The main difficulty with travelling from Magehaven is the risk of arriving before the collective Godir timeline within your destination world.

If the resulting grandfather paradox of going backwards in time is resolved by creating a parallel world, then if you go back in Athla's timeline to stop Meandor from ever existing by making sure that Inioch never marries Eleanor-Julia, you don't get to 'win' but rather you find yourselves in a parallel Athla of your own creation. It may be also the case that you cannot travel to Magehaven *from* a parallel timeline, so you are trapped there.

If this is the case, then the need for everyone to ensure they never arrive *before* anyone else in the local timeline complicates travel from Magehaven to the local worlds and reduces its ability to act as a transit point for moving stuff between worlds.



Playing as Alfred demotes the character from main leader to side-act, but it does 'make sense' in that it is a coherent situation, ablaut one that completely alters a certain character's role in the canonical story.

If Alfred is the main character of Story Mission 1, then he must return to Athla after the game is completed in order to take over the aftermath. The struggle against the Wizard Kings did not have a single unified leader, Alfred was just one of the various minor leaders rather than THE leader.

I think you are overanalyzing gameplay stuff. Things like not getting support from a previously conquered realm, why units can build roads without movement malus and even benefit from the road instantly, battles restricted to 18v18, why a war suddenly ends at turn 150 after the gamelenght runs out. One could come up with ingamereasons for that. But it feels like its gameplay mechanics without any in lore explanation. It also would be impossible to explain why before a fight of 7 stacks with 8 units each was possible and now its 3 stacks per side with 6 units each. It also doesnt even need one.

The timetravel stuff seems not plausible. I dont remember a single mention of that being a possibility. And if it was possible (even at the cost of leaving maintimeline forever) i would be sure Merlin would have picked that instead of trusting lythil.

So far all we nnow about time in relation to realms and stuff is, that some places progress faster or slower than others and that in the void you probably are too dissoriented to adequately judge the passing of time.

So at best in lore character A, twin of character B could leave their homerealm while B remains. Live elsewhere for a decade and return, just to learn for his twin only 1 year passed. Or that his twin aged 60 years, is a grandparent now and on their deathbed. But not to return before they left.

For why sundren doesnt go away for 2 days and returns fully Equiped with t4 stuff, brings you 5 stacks of angelkin warbreeds and 10k Gold. That would result in a very boring game.

Also, you usually have the option to send some of those heroes away, like sundren in arcalot and oasis. If you do that, she simply dissapears. Most likely leaving the realm instantly. So she isnt stuck. She just fights on our side for that war. If we let her.

 

[Goblin-Cookie]

I think you are overanalyzing gameplay stuff. Things like not getting support from a previously conquered realm, why units can build roads without movement malus and even benefit from the road instantly, battles restricted to 18v18, why a war suddenly ends at turn 150 after the game length runs out. One could come up with in game reasons for that. But it feels like its gameplay mechanics without any in lore explanation. It also would be impossible to explain why before a fight of 7 stacks with 8 units each was possible and now its 3 stacks per side with 6 units each. It also doesn't even need one.

There is no in-lore basis for multi-world empires, so there is no reason to automatically assume that the gameplay mechanics and the lore are separate here. Granted a contradiction between lore and game mechanics is a problem for other games, but it hasn't so far happened in the Age of Wonders series to my knowledge; a lot of things happen in the game mechanics that aren't mentioned in the lore, but they do not ever contradict the lore.

The time-travel stuff seems not plausible. I don't remember a single mention of that being a possibility. And if it was possible (even at the cost of leaving main-timeline forever) i would be sure Merlin would have picked that instead of trusting Lithyl.

Simple : It isn't considered as a possibility and so it is not mentioned. We don't get from character conversations the complete scoop of every detail of their world, we get the details that are relevant to their present circumstances.

Merlin is not trying to save *any* Julia, he is trying to save *his* Julia, that is the one that exists in his own timeline. If he goes back in time to save Julia, then *his* Julia remains in the trouble in a future that 'no longer exists' for him. Because Julia (and all the other Godir), did not go back in time along with him, from their POV nothing happened except Merlin vanishing.

When you travel to a world from Magehaven, you must be careful not to arrive before anyone else. At the same time, as a Godir you want to arrive as early as possible in order to gain a strategic advantage. The result is everyone arrives shortly after eachother, so we end up with the starting condition of most game missions, they all arrived within the length of time represented by a turn in the game mechanics.

Everyone tries to arrive in the future from the perspective of the previous arrivals and never in the past, because if you arrive in the past, then you are now 'out of sync' with Magehaven and are forever trapped in an alternative timeline of your own making. This principle applies to every shipment of goodies from Magehaven, it must arrive in the future from the perspective of those it is intended to aid.

So far all we now about time in relation to realms and stuff is, that some places progress faster or slower than others and that in the void you probably are too disoriented to adequately judge the passing of time.

So at best in lore character A, twin of character B could leave their home-realm while B remains. Live elsewhere for a decade and return, just to learn for his twin only 1 year passed. Or that his twin aged 60 years, is a grandparent now and on their deathbed. But not to return before they left.

For why Sundren doesn't go away for 2 days and returns fully equipped with t4 stuff, brings you 5 stacks of angelkin warbreeds and 10k Gold. That would result in a very boring game.

Also, you usually have the option to send some of those heroes away, like Sundren in Arcalot and Oasis. If you do that, she simply disappears. Most likely leaving the realm instantly. So she isn't stuck. She just fights on our side for that war. If we let her.

They aren't trying to have an interesting game, they are trying to win easily without lots of them dying . So if they don't move 5 stacks of angelkin warbreeds and 10k gold over from their previous world to the new empire it can only be because they cannot.

Given the majority of beings in the game-world are not 'units in the game', nothing implies that hero-Sundren instantaneously left the game-world because she is no longer a unit in your army.

Also, it is actually Laryssa that fights on your side in the Oasis Mission.

 

[STARSDragoon]

When you travel to a world from Magehaven, you must be careful not to arrive before anyone else. At the same time, as a Godir you want to arrive as early as possible in order to gain a strategic advantage. The result is everyone arrives shortly after eachother, so we end up with the starting condition of most game missions, they all arrived within the length of time represented by a turn in the game mechanics.

Everyone tries to arrive in the future from the perspective of the previous arrivals and never in the past, because if you arrive in the past, then you are now 'out of sync' with Magehaven and are forever trapped in an alternative timeline of your own making. This principle applies to every shipment of goodies from Magehaven, it must arrive in the future from the perspective of those it is intended to aid.

Sorry, but that is personal headcanon without any evidence at all. If you can bring up any line that suggests the problem with travelling to a realm is accidental timetravel (which essentially deletes you from existence) i am willing to listen.

 

[STARSDragoon]

They aren't trying to have an interesting game, they are trying to win easily without lots of them dying . So if they don't move 5 stacks of angelkin warbreeds and 10k gold over from their previous world to the new empire it can only be because they cannot.

Given the majority of beings in the game-world are not 'units in the game', nothing implies that hero-Sundren instantaneously left the game-world because she is no longer a unit in your army.

Also, it is actually Laryssa that fights on your side in the Oasis Mission.

The devs deciding not to give free stuff because you won once before doesn't need to be justified with ingamereasons.

I am also pretty sure you get 2 heroes joining you in oasis. One of them sundren. She even talks to alfred in that mission.

And there is nothing suggesting, that the hero is trapped in the realm upon not getting to join you either.

 

[Blanch Warren]

You can "bring things in", it just costs more gold, mana or imperium.

 

[Orinsul]

The 'rules' of Magehaven and invading worlds in AoW4 appear to all be social conventions, rules enforced by Meandor and, if you broke it the other Godir would break it too, cold-war-isms not natural forces or the Laws of Magic. The Oasis? mission implies that the random maps you fight on, are a way to settle scores and arguments between Godir, so you arrive at the same time, with small prep forces sent ahead at the same time to prepare the way, not because of physical restraints on the ability to travel between worlds or physical limitations, but because those are the rules of the game, and all of magehaven is watching