White Walkers and the Night's King?

[D Toccs]

I agree with you. Personally I expect the threat of the Others is that they want to throw everything into disarray and make Ice victorious over Fire (dragons/the children).

The Children are most definitely not on the side of Fire. It was men with fire that came and burned down their Weirwoods and took their lands. The Children 3 times deployed continent shattering magical WMDs in order to stop men and fire.
Why people assume they are in anyway the good guys constantly baffles me.

For that matter, why assume Fire is the good side. Fire and it's servants have been more destructive in the series so far than anything Ice and it's servants have done. Benerro's idea of a Fire victory is that it will be an eternal Summer (even worse than the long Summer that devasted Westeros during Maekar's reign) and that all Fire loyalists will rise from the dead (as in that hellish existance that Berric Dondarrion found himself desparate to get out of).
It's about balance, both Fire and Ice must be brought into check, niether is the good and niether is the bad.

 

[locustgate]

The Children are most definitely not on the side of Fire. It was men with fire that came and burned down their Weirwoods and took their lands. The Children 3 times deployed continent shattering magical WMDs in order to stop men and fire.
Why people assume they are in anyway the good guys constantly baffles me.

For that matter, why assume Fire is the good side. Fire and it's servants have been more destructive in the series so far than anything Ice and it's servants have done. Benerro's idea of a Fire victory is that it will be an eternal Summer (even worse than the long Summer that devasted Westeros during Maekar's reign) and that all Fire loyalists will rise from the dead (as in that hellish existance that Berric Dondarrion found himself desparate to get out of).
It's about balance, both Fire and Ice must be brought into check, niether is the good and niether is the bad.

I believe the children are the embodiment of balance, it is stated that their sole foes before man were the others and again it was stated that they aided the nightswatch, by supplying them with obsidian weapons which they themselves were equipped with. They fight Ice, when it is out of control, and then fight Fire when it is like wise. As to why people see them as good guys, it is probably because they didn't out right kill humans, when they could destroy vast swaths of land mass and they fought the Others.

If both ice (blue) and fire (red) are gray then the children are true gray.

 

[WingedLion14]

The Children are most definitely not on the side of Fire. It was men with fire that came and burned down their Weirwoods and took their lands. The Children 3 times deployed continent shattering magical WMDs in order to stop men and fire.
Why people assume they are in anyway the good guys constantly baffles me.

For that matter, why assume Fire is the good side. Fire and it's servants have been more destructive in the series so far than anything Ice and it's servants have done. Benerro's idea of a Fire victory is that it will be an eternal Summer (even worse than the long Summer that devasted Westeros during Maekar's reign) and that all Fire loyalists will rise from the dead (as in that hellish existance that Berric Dondarrion found himself desparate to get out of).
It's about balance, both Fire and Ice must be brought into check, niether is the good and niether is the bad.

I agree with you - it's about balance.
I'm not assuming Fire is the good side. I'm also not assuming Ice is the good side, either. Honestly, I think they're both two ends of the same bad side, fighting with each other.
The episode "The Children" is where I'm getting the children as "Fire" - the fireballs. In any case, I don't trust them at all. But if I may quote something from GRRM's website:

Long ago, in a time forgotten, a preternatural event threw the seasons out of balance. In a land where summers can last decades and winters a lifetime, trouble is brewing. The cold is returning, and in the frozen wastes to the north of Winterfell, sinister and supernatural forces are massing beyond the kingdom’s protective Wall. At the center of the conflict lie the Starks of Winterfell, a family as harsh and unyielding as the land they were born to. Sweeping from a land of brutal cold to a distant summertime kingdom of epicurean plenty, here is a tale of lords and ladies, soldiers and sorcerers, assassins and bastards, who come together in a time of grim omens.

Here an enigmatic band of warriors bear swords of no human metal; a tribe of fierce wildlings carry men off into madness; a cruel young dragon prince barters his sister to win back his throne; and a determined woman undertakes the most treacherous of journeys. Amid plots and counterplots, tragedy and betrayal, victory and terror, the fate of the Starks, their allies, and their enemies hangs perilously in the balance, as each endeavors to win that deadliest of conflicts: the game of thrones.

Whatever the threat is, it focuses above the Wall; otherwise, we wouldn't have followed Jon Snow up there, we wouldn't have gotten as much a taste of Beyond-the-Wall as the Wall itself (if not more), and he wouldn't have spelled it out on his website. Granted, Martin has a reputation for throwing people off, but I'd wager that the "swords of no human metal" are the Others, the wildlings are the wildlings, the prince is Viserys, and the determined woman is.............Dany?!?!?!? Could it be Arya, since, after all, the story is of the Starks and their allies?

Again, just speculating here.

 

[locustgate]

Whatever the threat is, it focuses above the Wall; otherwise, we wouldn't have followed Jon Snow up there, we wouldn't have gotten as much a taste of Beyond-the-Wall as the Wall itself (if not more), and he wouldn't have spelled it out on his website. Granted, Martin has a reputation for throwing people off, but I'd wager that the "swords of no human metal" are the Others, the wildlings are the wildlings, the prince is Viserys, and the determined woman is.............Dany?!?!?!? Could it be Arya, since, after all, the story is of the Starks and their allies?

Well since he already mention Viserys' sister I would say Arya or her bitch of a sisters.....but since it's GRRM I would say Dany. However I like the idea of Arya joining/teaming/aiding Dany.

 

[D Toccs]

The Wall is the magical event that through the seasons out of balance. The Children's third attempt at dividing Westeros with the Hammer of the Waters, only this time one that was frozen in place.

 

[MysticalReed]

What would it take to implement a 'Night's King' decision in the Night's Watch? Just a simple decision, or something more? If this was possible I'd consider playing the Night's Watch again.

 

[locustgate]

The Wall is the magical event that through the seasons out of balance. The Children's third attempt at dividing Westeros with the Hammer of the Waters, only this time one that was frozen in place.

Er...no the long night occurred before that, the only way that it would throw the seasons out of whack is if the rightful seasons are 100 years of winter and x years of summer. It also was stated that Bran the Builder built it, however it is possible the Children helped him they gave many hints that they disliked the wall.

 

[D Toccs]

Er...no the long night occurred before that, the only way that it would throw the seasons out of whack is if the rightful seasons are 100 years of winter and x years of summer.

Er . . .no, the Long Night ended with the raising of the Wall. I suspect that the protracted winter of the Long Night was required in order to facilitate the raising of a 700 foot Ice structure.
The Hammer of the Waters and the Wall are the most powerful form of magic seen in the series, both are highly elemental and destabilizing. If magic is the cause of the seasons imbalance (which GRRM says it is) then that is the prime suspect. The Wall must come down!

It also was stated that Bran the Builder built it,

No such thing was ever stated, nor is it widely believed in universe. From one of Bran's chapters . . .

Bran the Builder, who centuries ago raised Winterfell and some say the Wall as well.

Even in Westeros, even in the North, even in Winterfell only some people belive he built the Wall. Then GRRM himself says this

No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

Meaning that Bran the Buidler may never have even existed at all.

it is possible the Children helped him they gave many hints that they disliked the wall.

There are no such hints. The Children of the Forest have not once mentioned the Wall or the Others, not once even in passing.

 

[locustgate]

Er . . .no, the Long Night ended with the raising of the Wall. I suspect that the protracted winter of the Long Night was required in order to facilitate the raising of a 700 foot Ice structure.
The Hammer of the Waters and the Wall are the most powerful form of magic seen in the series, both are highly elemental and destabilizing. If magic is the cause of the seasons imbalance (which GRRM says it is) then that is the prime suspect. The Wall must come down!



No such thing was ever stated, nor is it widely believed in universe. From one of Bran's chapters . . .

Bran the Builder, who centuries ago raised Winterfell and some say the Wall as well.

Even in Westeros, even in the North, even in Winterfell only some people belive he built the Wall. Then GRRM himself says this

No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

Meaning that Bran the Buidler may never have even existed at all.
.

Storm of Swords, Chapter 33, Samwell "after the long night steps were made to ensure that Westeros would never face a threat from the north".

Old Nan told Bran that he built the wall in chapter 24, Game of Thrones, He then reiterates it in Chapter 40 of Storm of swords. Storm of Swords Chapter 30 Jon, Bran put the foundations of the wall.

Can you please give me some kind of evidence that the children built it.

 

[WingedLion14]

Storm of Swords, Chapter 33, Samwell "after the long night steps were made to ensure that Westeros would never face a threat from the north".

Old Nan told Bran that he built the wall in chapter 24, Game of Thrones, He then reiterates it in Chapter 40 of Storm of swords. Storm of Swords Chapter 30 Jon, Bran put the foundations of the wall.

Can you please give me some kind of evidence that the children built it.

Meh, in my opinion, if the author says that so-and-so might be real, then either he's not real, or it's irrelevant.

In any case, while I agree that the Wall must come down, I disagree that that is causing some sort of divide that is shoving the seasons out of balance. The existence of the Wall is important for the Children - why else would they give obsidian to the Watch? - but I don't think it's the be-all-end-all. They need the Others away from Westeros, because they want it back, but they don't want the Others making their land all cold and whatnot.

 

[D Toccs]

Storm of Swords, Chapter 33, Samwell "after the long night steps were made to ensure that Westeros would never face a threat from the north".

Old Nan told Bran that he built the wall in chapter 24, Game of Thrones, He then reiterates it in Chapter 40 of Storm of swords. Storm of Swords Chapter 30 Jon, Bran put the foundations of the wall.

Can you please give me some kind of evidence that the children built it.

Niether Old Nan or Sam are speaking with any authority other than centuries of garbled myths (a fact acknowledged in universe by Sam himself, Rodrik the Reader, Hoster Blackwood and all the Maesters).

As for evidence of the Chidlren doing it, they twice before performed simialr spells the Hammer of the Waters, once breaking the Arm of Dorne, the second attempting to break the Neck. The Wall is located at the third choke point, is essentially a frozen Hammer of the Waters, was acknoweldged as being raised by poweful magic and perhaps most telling, The Children are on the other side of it.

Meh, in my opinion, if the author says that so-and-so might be real, then either he's not real, or it's irrelevant.

Except that the histories being wrong and the implciations of that is a major plot point of the series.

In any case, while I agree that the Wall must come down, I disagree that that is causing some sort of divide that is shoving the seasons out of balance.

So you don't think that the most powerful magic seen in the world which raised and sustains giant 700 foot tall, many many miles long structire of pure ice, and was created directly after the very first imbalance, is having any effect on the magical imbalance of the seasons? To each there own I guess.

The existence of the Wall is important for the Children - why else would they give obsidian to the Watch? - but I don't think it's the be-all-end-all. They need the Others away from Westeros, because they want it back, but they don't want the Others making their land all cold and whatnot.

I would bet real cash money that the Children of the Forest are the ones turning Craster's boys into the White Walkers.
Remember that the Children were uneffected during the Long Night, being safe in their hidden cities. The armies of men lost great swaths of their lands and then the 13 heroes had to set out into those lost lands in order to find the Children.

The natural assumption of 95% of readers is to assume that the Children are like Elves, that they helped men fight the Others and that ultimately they are now going to help Bran do it again. It is an assumption not supported anywhere in the text.
GRRM is relying on people making that assumption, just like he relied on people assuming Ned was the main character and Drogo was going to invade.

 

[locustgate]

As for evidence of the Chidlren doing it, they twice before performed simialr spells the Hammer of the Waters, once breaking the Arm of Dorne, the second attempting to break the Neck. The Wall is located at the third choke point, is essentially a frozen Hammer of the Waters, was acknoweldged as being raised by poweful magic and perhaps most telling, The Children are on the other side of it.

So you don't think that the most powerful magic seen in the world which raised and sustains giant 700 foot tall, many many miles long structire of pure ice, and was created directly after the very first imbalance, is having any effect on the magical imbalance of the seasons? To each there own I guess.


I would bet real cash money that the Children of the Forest are the ones turning Craster's boys into the White Walkers.
Remember that the Children were uneffected during the Long Night, being safe in their hidden cities. The armies of men lost great swaths of their lands and then the 13 heroes had to set out into those lost lands in order to find the Children.

The natural assumption of 95% of readers is to assume that the Children are like Elves, that they helped men fight the Others and that ultimately they are now going to help Bran do it again. It is an assumption not supported anywhere in the text.
GRRM is relying on people making that assumption, just like he relied on people assuming Ned was the main character and Drogo was going to invade.

With their oldest enemy and the Northmen, their 'allies' on the other side.

If anything it helped stabilized it, slightly, It went from 100 year long winters to 10 year long ones, pretty huge improvement no matter how you look at it.

Why would the children aid their oldest enemies?

I don't know what fantasy you play but most elves tend to only help others if THEY benefit,. You thought Drogo would invade, never it was obvious Dany was the main force and something would happen that would compel her to lead. Bran is a greenseer which is very important them, chances are Bran is going to try to leave to aid a family member and have to fight his way out.

 

[D Toccs]

Why would the children aid their oldest enemies?

Their oldest enemies in this being? Giants? First Men? I don't think they would or are aiding either.

You surely can't mean the Others, because there is zero evidence anywhere in the books that the Children ever fought against or were otherwise hostile to them.

With their oldest enemy and the Northmen, their 'allies' on the other side.

If the Northmen were allies of the Children, then the Children would have been safe in the North after the Andals came and started killing them. But they weren't, they instead had to flee all the way Beyond the Wall.

 

[WingedLion14]

Niether Old Nan or Sam are speaking with any authority other than centuries of garbled myths (a fact acknowledged in universe by Sam himself, Rodrik the Reader, Hoster Blackwood and all the Maesters).

As for evidence of the Chidlren doing it, they twice before performed simialr spells the Hammer of the Waters, once breaking the Arm of Dorne, the second attempting to break the Neck. The Wall is located at the third choke point, is essentially a frozen Hammer of the Waters, was acknoweldged as being raised by poweful magic and perhaps most telling, The Children are on the other side of it.



Except that the histories being wrong and the implciations of that is a major plot point of the series.

Uh, I'm agreeing with you here. My reference to the author is referring to GRRM's comment that you can't be sure, not the text itself. If the author makes a statement that a historical character may or may not have existed, then either the character did not exist, or it is irrelevant. My hunch is on irrelevant, because I doubt GRRM would make such a revelation if it mattered.

So you don't think that the most powerful magic seen in the world which raised and sustains giant 700 foot tall, many many miles long structire of pure ice, and was created directly after the very first imbalance, is having any effect on the magical imbalance of the seasons? To each there own I guess.

It doesn't have to be a cause, it could be an effect. And remember, it's cold up north, so the magic used is of men lost great swaths of their lands and then the 13 heroes had to set out into those lost lands in order to find the Children.probably exactly the same as the magic that would be used if it was only stone, not ice, that the Wall was made of (or at least, it could be).

I would bet real cash money that the Children of the Forest are the ones turning Craster's boys into the White Walkers.
Remember that the Children were uneffected during the Long Night, being safe in their hidden cities.

I would say TV show disproves this; I doubt such a major point would be a difference.

The natural assumption of 95% of readers is to assume that the Children are like Elves, that they helped men fight the Others and that ultimately they are now going to help Bran do it again. It is an assumption not supported anywhere in the text.
GRRM is relying on people making that assumption, just like he relied on people assuming Ned was the main character and Drogo was going to invade.

The children have their own agenda; of that I do not argue. They are not just there just to help mankind. I still don't see them as ultimately the enemy though, or at least not the only enemy.


The Long Night happened; of that there can be no doubt, since the Wall and the Others both exist. Again, HBO accidentally spilled the beans earlier this year about the nature of the Others and gave a possible reason for them to invade south; if you have no idea what I'm talking about, try this link. For whatever reason, the Others are preying on mankind and moving south, and it doesn't seem like mankind can live alongside them.
The children chose to abandon a relationship with mankind. Why? I don't know - jealousy perhaps? A desire for Westeros all to themselves? Again, all I've got is speculation

 

[locustgate]

Their oldest enemies in this being? Giants? First Men? I don't think they would or are aiding either.

You surely can't mean the Others, because there is zero evidence anywhere in the books that the Children ever fought against or were otherwise hostile to them.

There are 3 natives to Westeros, The Giants, The Children, and The Others. The Giants lived in the mountains while the Children lived in the forests, the others inhabited the wastelands and are "opposed to life". Leaf call the giants their "bane and brothers", so while they have fought they are not their enemies. The first men were opposed to them at first but eventually they adopted their gods. The Children always used obsidian and always inhabited difficult fighting grounds. The Children Gave the Nights Watch "Hundreds of Obsidian daggers every years" Feast for Crows, Chapter 5, Sam.

The children fought the others during the long night, particularly the Battle of Dawn.

 

[WingedLion14]

Their oldest enemies in this being? Giants? First Men? I don't think they would or are aiding either.

You surely can't mean the Others, because there is zero evidence anywhere in the books that the Children ever fought against or were otherwise hostile to them.
....
....
If the Northmen were allies of the Children, then the Children would have been safe in the North after the Andals came and started killing them. But they weren't, they instead had to flee all the way Beyond the Wall.

All records indicate that the Children gave obsidian to the Watch. Wights attacked Bran, journeying to Bloodraven and the Children. The wights unable to follow them into the weirwood. If that doesn't show opposition, I don't know what does. Which doesn't necessarily mean balance isn't better - but usually balance is achieve through opposing forces, not forces trying to achieve balance.

And I thought the Children withdrew from the realms of men, not forced there.

 

[D Toccs]

There are 3 natives to Westeros, The Giants, The Children, and The Others. The Giants lived in the mountains while the Children lived in the forests, the others inhabited the wastelands and are "opposed to life".

The Others have never been said to be native to Westeros and seeing as how they are in fact transformed humans, they are not even an actual species.
Leaf lists the old races that inhabited Westeros, the Children, the Giants, the Great Lions of the Western Hills, the Mammoths and the Direwolves. Conspicious by their absence is the White Walkers. You're dealing in assumptions here not in the text itself.

Old Nan says they are "cold dead things which hate life" GRRM himself confirms she is wrong by saying that the Others are in fact "a different form of life".

The children fought the others during the long night, particularly the Battle of Dawn.

Again, assumptions not borne out by the text. There is nothing anywhere in the books or any quotes from GRRM himself that has ever said the Children fought alongside men against the Others, it simply doesn't exist.

The Children always used obsidian and always inhabited difficult fighting grounds. The Children Gave the Nights Watch "Hundreds of Obsidian daggers every years" Feast for Crows, Chapter 5, Sam.

All records indicate that the Children gave obsidian to the Watch.

The Children used obsidian because they worked no metal. The same way that the Aztecs, Maya, Toltecs and other mesoamerican cultures did.

As for their gift to the Watch. Remember that the Children lost their war to the First Men, they used their most powerful magics and they failed, they were forced to the table and they got the worse end of the deal.
Remember how all the Lords Aegon defeated in his conquest gave up their swords to him? Well the Children gave 100 of their obsidian weapons as tribute and at the time there were the 100 Kingdoms of Men . . .you see where I'm going?

And I thought the Children withdrew from the realms of men, not forced there.

Maester Luwin tells that sanitized version to Bran yes, Osha a Wildling who lives on the other side of the Wall and knows better corrects him, that they fled.

 

[WingedLion14]

The Others have never been said to be native to Westeros and seeing as how they are in fact transformed humans, they are not even an actual species.

Question remains - how do we get the first? We answer that, I believe, and we get their motive for attacking.

Leaf lists the old races that inhabited Westeros, the Children, the Giants, the Great Lions of the Western Hills, the Mammoths and the Direwolves. Conspicious by their absence is the White Walkers. You're dealing in assumptions here not in the text itself.

Evidence that backs up one of two ideas - either that the Others are not supposed to be there, or that the Children don't want them there.

Old Nan says they are "cold dead things which hate life" GRRM himself confirms she is wrong by saying that the Others are in fact "a different form of life".

As made clear by the TV show, they don't necessarily hate all life besides their own; at the end of season 2, why did that White Walker not kill Sam, besides it being necessary for the plot?

Again, assumptions not borne out by the text. There is nothing anywhere in the books or any quotes from GRRM himself that has ever said the Children fought alongside men against the Others, it simply doesn't exist.

Nothing to say here; you're exactly right. Although the prophecies don't necessitate the assistance of the Children.......and personally, I think Bran's plot ultimately has one purpose, involving Jon Snow and his parentage...but I digress.

The Children used obsidian because they worked no metal. The same way that the Aztecs, Maya, Toltecs and other mesoamerican cultures did.

As for their gift to the Watch. Remember that the Children lost their war to the First Men, they used their most powerful magics and they failed, they were forced to the table and they got the worse end of the deal.
Remember how all the Lords Aegon defeated in his conquest gave up their swords to him? Well the Children gave 100 of their obsidian weapons as tribute and at the time there were the 100 Kingdoms of Men . . .you see where I'm going?

Please provide evidence that the Children were defeated; as far as I know, they fought to a standstill and made a truce.

Maester Luwin tells that sanitized version to Bran yes, Osha a Wildling who lives on the other side of the Wall and knows better corrects him, that they fled.

If I am correct, she used the word "went" not "fled." But if I'm wrong, please, let me know where it is.

 

[D Toccs]

Please provide evidence that the Children were defeated; as far as I know, they fought to a standstill and made a truce.

The excerpts from the Worldbook execrpts certainly gives that impression and there's the fact that twice they used their greatest magic and twice they failed. Also in the Pact the Children who once owned all of Westeros, were left with just the deepest woods and caves while the First Men took all the rest.
That's a pretty one sided settlement, and sided in favor of the attackers not defenders.

 

[locustgate]

Old Nan says they are "cold dead things which hate life" GRRM himself confirms she is wrong by saying that the Others are in fact "a different form of life".

Again, assumptions not borne out by the text. There is nothing anywhere in the books or any quotes from GRRM himself that has ever said the Children fought alongside men against the Others, it simply doesn't exist.

As for their gift to the Watch. Remember that the Children lost their war to the First Men, they used their most powerful magics and they failed, they were forced to the table and they got the worse end of the deal.
Remember how all the Lords Aegon defeated in his conquest gave up their swords to him? Well the Children gave 100 of their obsidian weapons as tribute and at the time there were the 100 Kingdoms of Men . . .you see where I'm going?



Maester Luwin tells that sanitized version to Bran yes, Osha a Wildling who lives on the other side of the Wall and knows better corrects him, that they fled.

.

That doesn't mean they aren't native, there's native bacteria, that's a 'different form of life'. Game of Thrones, Chapter 24, Bran.

Game of Thrones, Chapter 24, Bran.

Evidence?

It said that the children attempted to destroy the neck and failed, it would seem they caused the neck's current state, Clash of Kings, Chapter 50, Theon, p 733.
The terms of the Pact was the Children kept the forests and the First Men kept the open lands, they did not 'flee' to the forests or give tribute and the exact words from the book is "they fought to a standstill". After the arrival of the Seven the children and men started to drift apart from men and by the time of King's landing they were thought extinct/myths. Game of Thrones, Chapter 66, Bran.