Why is the distribution of raw materials completely unrealistic?

[luo]

Here we take tea, silk and dyes as examples.


The following are raw material maps of China, India, Persia, and the Balkans.
I marked the distribution and quantity of tea, silk, and dye among them.

It can be inferred that the Silk Road was completely fabricated. Because the silk producing locations in the Balkans are close to China (excluding Yunnan and the southwestern tusi as well as Vietnam, China only has 13 silk producing areas), while Persia is close to twice that of China (21), and India is close to three times that of China (33).

I still wonder why Kashmir on the plateau and the Tusi in the southwest China can produce silk. The environment in these places simply does not allow for the survival of silkworms and mulberry trees.

In terms of dyes, there is a greater disparity because China only has one dye producing area, while India has 29. Perhaps only India can produce silk dyed in color. lol
At the same time, India lacks locations for producing spices, which should have been more here. There should also be some spice production in southern China, such as the famous Sichuan pepper.

On the contrary, tea reflects the reality (but I believe Ceylon and Assam could have added some tea to reflect the tea plantations of the British colonial period).



Why is this issue so important?

1.This helps to enhance the sense of immersion and restore the distribution of history.
2.In terms of gameplay, it helps to restore the reasons for trade and colonization, after all, if Europe can produce silk on its own, why colonize the East to obtain it?

As many have suggested, India is famous for its spices and elephants, while China is famous for its silk and tea, but these are not reflected in the raw material maps. This should be corrected. Can China have fewer silk locations than India and Persia?


Another issue is about porcelain. Because I found that clay is distributed all over the world, and devs mentioned that porcelain is a secondary product produced by architecture. Does this mean that porcelain can be produced freely around the world? Or can it be unlocked by a unique Chinese technology to ensure that only the surrounding areas of China can produce porcelain?


Here are some maps about regional products in China during the Ming and Qing dynasties. Including agriculture, handicrafts, and mineral production. Perhaps Indian friends should also provide reference maps in this way for devs to modify.

This map is slightly distorted due to shooting issues, but it does not affect its information.

 

[Freshplayer]

Here we take tea, silk and dyes as examples.


The following are raw material maps of China, India, Persia, and the Balkans.
I marked the distribution and quantity of tea, silk, and dye among them.


View attachment 1302398
View attachment 1302399
View attachment 1302401
View attachment 1302403

It can be inferred that the Silk Road was completely fabricated. Because the silk producing locations in the Balkans are close to China (excluding Yunnan and the southwestern tusi as well as Vietnam, China only has 13 silk producing areas), while Persia is close to twice that of China (21), and India is close to three times that of China (33).

I still wonder why Kashmir on the plateau and the Tusi in the southwest China can produce silk. The environment in these places simply does not allow for the survival of silkworms and mulberry trees.

In terms of dyes, there is a greater disparity because China only has one dye producing area, while India has 29. Perhaps only India can produce silk dyed in color. lol
At the same time, India lacks locations for producing spices, which should have been more here. There should also be some spice production in southern China, such as the famous Sichuan pepper.

On the contrary, tea reflects the reality (but I believe Ceylon and Assam could have added some tea to reflect the tea plantations of the British colonial period).



Why is this issue so important?

1.This helps to enhance the sense of immersion and restore the distribution of history.
2.In terms of gameplay, it helps to restore the reasons for trade and colonization, after all, if Europe can produce silk on its own, why colonize the East to obtain it?

As many have suggested, India is famous for its spices and elephants, while China is famous for its silk and tea, but these are not reflected in the raw material maps. This should be corrected. Can China have fewer silk locations than India and Persia?


Another issue is about porcelain. Because I found that clay is distributed all over the world, and devs mentioned that porcelain is a secondary product produced by architecture. Does this mean that porcelain can be produced freely around the world? Or can it be unlocked by a unique Chinese technology to ensure that only the surrounding areas of China can produce porcelain?


Here are some maps about regional products in China during the Ming and Qing dynasties. Including agriculture, handicrafts, and mineral production. Perhaps Indian friends should also provide reference maps in this way for devs to modify.

View attachment 1302416
View attachment 1302427
View attachment 1302438
This map is slightly distorted due to shooting issues, but it does not affect its information.

I have talked a lot about this topic.

I notice some strange legumes production areas in the northwest. In theory, these areas can't produce legmunes or produce only a few centuries ago. Also, there is some wheat production around Lower Yangtze, while in real-world, the wheat and rice was divided by Qianlin-Huaihe Line so you won't grow wheat in the Yangtze Basin. Futhermore, I don't think we have any fur production in Southeastern China.
View attachment 1224599View attachment 1224586View attachment 1224660
Maps of cropping patterns in China during 2015–2021
Also for gems distribution in China, I have a map from (Yu et al., 2021). However, I have to emphasize the most valuable gems in China, that are different from the West, were Jades and Yellow or Green Jadites such as emeralds, turquoise, malachite, etc. For details, see https://intl.dpm.org.cn/galleries/details/319.html (Forbidden City's Jewelry Collection)

I will propose a series of gem production places including Hotan Jade, Lin'an (Wild Game -> Gems), Xun, Zhuxi, Xunxi (Rice, Livestock, Fur -> Gems), Nanyang (Fruit -> Gems), Lantian (Lumber -> Gem). Though Nanjing is nicked Stone City, I don't think they produce Stone anyway. A local gem named Yuhuan Stone is well-known in China. Baoshan is also a major production base for South Red Agate. Additionally, I am suprised that Dali Kingdom did not have any marble production as in Chinese we refer Marble as Dalishi, literally stone from dali. For me, the major production in Nanjing can be cotton or silk, notably Nankeen.
View attachment 1224600View attachment 1224629
As for Dye production, it varies on colors. According to (Tang, 2023) and the Silk Museum, Yellow was processed from Sophora japonica under Legumes, majorly from the Loess Plateau; Indigo is mainly Polygonum tinctorium Ait. and Isatis tinctoria Linnaeus, which also grows as herbs; Madders were widely used as the sources for red colorants. Most of the dyes were made from plants, many of which were also grown for Chinese medicine, notably Banlangen. Based on my observation, dye is not a kind of raw materials in China but a by-product of herbs or corps. View attachment 1224641View attachment 1224649
Distribution of Rubia cordifolia, a major material for red colorants in Eastern Asia and its theoritical suitable planting area in China.
View attachment 1224656
Map of Teas in China.
View attachment 1224657
Map of salt mines and oil drilling

List of Gold Mines: https://www.mindat.org/locentries.php?p=693&m=52454
List of Iron Mines: https://www.mindat.org/locentries.php?p=693&m=52466
List of Lead Mines: https://www.mindat.org/locentries.php?p=693&m=52471

View attachment 1234084
from Guo et al. (1976) Map of Business Centers /Production of Tea, Silk, Ramie, Wools, Crafts / Transportation in Ming China

Tea production in Hanzhong Basin (NE), Wool production along the Sichuan-Amdo borderland, Silk Production in the Jialing River basin (Baoning, Shunqing, Nanchong, Pengzhou, Guangan, Quxian), and Tea production along the Yangtze River in the south.
View attachment 1234153
Silk production in Lu'an. Zouping, and Zhangqiu, Dongchang, Tea production in Laiyang, Paper in Ruanzhou/Kaiping
View attachment 1234154
Cotton in Yunnan, Tea and Ramie in Guizhou and Yunnan, Silk in Yuanjiang.
View attachment 1234155
Ramie production from Guangdong to Jiangxi, along the Gan River valley. Silk production is in Qiyang and Yongzhou in Hunnan Province. Paper in Leiyang and Linchuan.
View attachment 1234156
Rich lower Yangtze basin.
Songjiang - Cotton and Wools
Huzhou - Silk, pen, and Printing
Suzhou - silk, tea, and printing
Ningguo - paper, tea, and pen
Hangzhou - silk and tea
Shaoxing - tea and paper
Nankang, Nanchang - Ramie and Tea
Major printing industry in Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Nanjing, and Huizhou
Major paper supply in Luzhou, Ningguo, Chizhou, Yinshan, Huizhou, Chun'an, Yanzhou, Chanshan, Guangxin, Qianshan, Yongkang, Shengxian, and Shaoxing

View attachment 1234158

From the same source as above.
View attachment 1234135
Coal, Iron, and Chinaware production in Shanxi and Henan provinces. There are still some silver and salt in the border of the map.
View attachment 1234136
Salt around the Bohai Sea. Chinaware production in Shouguang and Linqu, Iron in Laiwu. Gold mine in Qixia, Zhaoyuan, Laiyang, and Jiaozhou. Laizhou Gold Mine is still the largest gold mine in China.
View attachment 1234137
Salt production in Sichuan Basin. Gold production in Wanxian, Jianshi, Wuling, Taoyuan, Longyuan, Yuanling, Chenxi, Yuanzhou, and Qinyang. There are still more gold reserves to be discovered in the Yuan River basin of Hunan province.
View attachment 1234138
Chinaware production in Jingdezhen, Dehua, and Longquan are three major production bases for foreign trade. Chuzhou is a sub-center for Longquan celadon production. Chuzhou is also rich in silver, and Huizhou produces Lacquerware. The region was known for earliest production of Lacquerware in the world history. Dexing's copper mine is Asia's largest open-pit copper mine and second largest in the world.
View attachment 1234146

 

[luo]

I have talked a lot about this topic.

I think it would be better to have a separate post to discuss and compare the differences between different regions more intuitively.
Thank you very much for your work.

 

[Le Vengur]

Keep in mind that raw materials are produced by pops, not locations.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

The 5 in the balkans might only have 50.000 between them.

If anything the Chinese deposit will be easier to develop further with a single building impacting more workers.

 

[Mef]

On the contrary, tea reflects the reality (but I believe Ceylon and Assam could have added some tea to reflect the tea plantations of the British colonial period).

I'm pretty sure that it should only be Assam, because that's where the tea plant came from that the British plantations grew. Robert Fortune did introduce Chinese tea plants in the mid 1800s, but they perished - what actually mattered was that he brought skilled Chinese workers who established the plantations in Assam and Ceylon. This happened after the time period, but since the native tea plant did exist in Assam, I think it would make sense to have some tea there.

Keep in mind that raw materials are produced by pops, not locations.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

The 5 in the balkans might only have 50.000 between them.

If anything the Chinese deposit will be easier to develop further with a single building impacting more workers.

Each level takes 1000 workers and while population does affect max RGO levels, you're never going to have 500 levels of an RGO in a location.

 

[Freshplayer]

Keep in mind that raw materials are produced by pops, not locations.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

The 5 in the balkans might only have 50.000 between them.

If anything the Chinese deposit will be easier to develop further with a single building impacting more workers.

Much of my quotes talked about unrealistic distribution instead of number of places producing materials.

For example, almost no dye province, rice-producing provinces in the North China, suspicious legume-growing provinces in the inland. Typically, no idea what dyes means because the Chinese making of colors didn’t require rare and special materials.

 

[Le Vengur]

Each level takes 1000 workers and while population does affect max RGO levels, you're never going to have 500 levels of an RGO in a location.

You'll still have vastly more, and be able to fill it if there's demand.

 

[Freshplayer]

I'm pretty sure that it should only be Assam, because that's where the tea plant came from that the British plantations grew. Robert Fortune did introduce Chinese tea plants in the mid 1800s, but they perished - what actually mattered was that he brought skilled Chinese workers who established the plantations in Assam and Ceylon. This happened after the time period, but since the native tea plant did exist in Assam, I think it would make sense to have some tea there.


Each level takes 1000 workers and while population does affect max RGO levels, you're never going to have 500 levels of an RGO in a location.

The local tea in Assam should be a result of Tai migration from southern China in the 12th century, where Singpo introduced their technique in tea. They shared the same type of tea with Yunnan-growing tea.

 

[Freshplayer]

You'll still have vastly more, and be able to fill it if there's demand.

That’s even more unrealistic. Imagine you will employ millions of farmer to achieve higher production because this is the only place to produce something, even though the location may be mountainous, inhabitable, and inaccessible.

 

[Mef]

You'll still have vastly more, and be able to fill it if there's demand.

Depends on what the scaling is like. For example, at the start of the game, Nanjing with a population of 380K has 17 max levels of silk. If it was rural, it would be closer to 34 levels.
Compare to a location like Città di Castello with 9 max levels of dyes at the start and a population of 13k. Population really doesn't scale RGO levels all that much.

 

[luo]

Keep in mind that raw materials are produced by pops, not locations.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

The 5 in the balkans might only have 50.000 between them.

If anything the Chinese deposit will be easier to develop further with a single building impacting more workers.

I don't think that just stuffing more people into a location can produce more resources, just like you can't say that stuffing hundreds of thousands of people into one location and claiming it's like dispersing them into dozens of locations to produce as much. Can raw materials from one location be produced indefinitely without a limit? If that's the case, then the design itself needs to be modified.

A more likely scenario is a design similar to v3, where each location has an upper limit for raw material production.

Otherwise, Europe doesn't need any colonization at all. You just need to relocate hundreds of thousands of people to raw material production areas, such as Constantinople, and then you don't need to import any silk at all.

 

[Le Vengur]

Depends on what the scaling is like. For example, at the start of the game, Nanjing with a population of 380K has 17 max levels of silk. If it was rural, it would be closer to 34 levels.
That means a maximum of 34000 workers...

That seems fairly reasonable for the raw resource at least. Ideally i'd like to be able to have a comparable number in the production buildings as well. Turning the raw silk into dyed fabric.

That’s even more unrealistic. Imagine you will employ millions of farmer to achieve higher production because this is the only place to produce something, even though the location may be mountainous, inhabitable, and inaccessible.

For farming it'd be unreasonable yeah. Not so much for mining or basic processing.

I don't think that just stuffing more people into a location can produce more resources, just like you can't say that stuffing hundreds of thousands of people into one location and claiming it's like dispersing them into dozens of locations to produce as much. Can raw materials from one location be produced indefinitely without a limit? If that's the case, then the design itself needs to be modified.

A more likely scenario is a design similar to v3, where each location has an upper limit for raw material production.

Otherwise, Europe doesn't need any colonization at all. You just need to relocate hundreds of thousands of people to raw material production areas, such as Constantinople, and then you don't need to import any silk at all.

Really dependant on the resource. Rice at least can use literally hundreds of thousands of workers in a single location. It obviously makes little to no sense for forestry or mining. Plantations as a whole should have vast capacity for improvement through just throwing more slaves at it.

And i very much doubt we'll be able to relocate pops like that. Not on a massive scale anyways. Besides if you produce that much silk you'd run out of food (and drop the silk prices down to the point it's worthless).

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

I still wonder why Kashmir on the plateau and the Tusi in the southwest China can produce silk. The environment in these places simply does not allow for the survival of silkworms and mulberry trees.

I wonder if silk is intended to represent a couple other materials and they’ve just been folded in under “silk”, kinda like the new spices. I do agree though if China isn’t the dominant silk exporting region that’s going to create some weird dynamics, such as the Silk Road not existing since most regions along it actually just produce their own silks domestically.

 

[Freshplayer]

That seems fairly reasonable for the raw resource at least. Ideally i'd like to be able to have a comparable number in the production buildings as well. Turning the raw silk into dyed fabric.


For farming it'd be unreasonable yeah. Not so much for mining or basic processing.


Really dependant on the resource. Rice at least can use literally hundreds of thousands of workers in a single location. It obviously makes little to no sense for forestry or mining. Plantations as a whole should have vast capacity for improvement through just throwing more slaves at it.

And i very much doubt we'll be able to relocate pops like that. Not on a massive scale anyways. Besides if you produce that much silk you'd run out of food (and drop the silk prices down to the point it's worthless).

In my mind, much of farmland was used for self-subsistence instead of producing exchangeable goods, which limited population potential in the most countries.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Or can it be unlocked by a unique Chinese technology to ensure that only the surrounding areas of China can produce porcelain?

It shouldn’t be unique per-say, Europeans figured it out in the 18th century, but China starting with the technology and retaining a monopoly on it for a few centuries would be realistic, and what I expect from the game. Heck Messien porcelain is even a unique Saxon innovation, which would be a bit awkward if Europeans can produce porcelain before the age of absolutism.

 

[SAmaster]

I've always found the distribution of silk weird in that China doesn't enjoy a giant monopoly on it. Now, some provinces having it representing a strong silk trade makes sense, but like you said, it's bizaare there's twice as much silk in India than China.

On the spices thing though, I should note that India's love of spices started with the dawn of intercontinental trade with the Spanish bringing stuff like chili-peppers from south america, so it makes sense that their spice provinces should increase based from the middle-ages start-date.

 

[luo]

Keep in mind that raw materials are produced by pops, not locations.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

The 5 in the balkans might only have 50.000 between them.

If anything the Chinese deposit will be easier to develop further with a single building impacting more workers.

You have avoided the most important issue: This resource design is not in line with history and is not conducive to gameplay.

There are so many reference materials here, why can't they be modified? Even though Europe's resources have been historically examined?
Why do players from Eastern countries have to fill in the population in those locations to obtain the raw materials from Western countries with numerous production locations? Why ignoring the information and historical research provided by players, only discussing how the game content can be fully played under the existing design?
For example, if Europe only has one iron location in the game, I say here: anyway, the population can be relocated there, and 5000 pops in one location can produce the same amount of iron as 50 other locations in other regions. So there's no need for any modifications here, just keep it as it is, it's not that it can't be played.

Is it acceptable even if I am provided with maps of all iron ore producing areas in Europe?

 

[Freshplayer]

It shouldn’t be unique per-say, Europeans figured it out in the 18th century, but China starting with the technology and retaining a monopoly on it for a few centuries would be realistic, and what I expect from the game. Heck Messien porcelain is even a unique Saxon innovation, which would be a bit awkward if Europeans can produce porcelain before the age of absolutism.

It reminds me of printing in China. Printing became available centuries before the game started. Without printing, the adoption of paper money in the Yuan Dynasty or the publication of Tripitaka Koreana would not have been possible. Jikji, published in 1377, is the world's oldest extant book printed with movable metal type. It would be better to use some unique technology instead of a global one.

The first Chinese book printed using Gutenberg-style printing was A Dictionary of the Chinese Language in 1815. The missionary Robert Morrison took the risk of violating the Christianity Ban and aimed to translate the Bible into Chinese. As you can see, this book served the missionaries and was primarily in English. In 1823, his translation of the Bible was published using the same technique. It would be weird if Gutenberg printers were adopted before 1823 for Chinese.

 

[Le Vengur]

You have avoided the most important issue: This resource design is not in line with history and is not conducive to gameplay.

There are so many reference materials here, why can't they be modified? Even though Europe's resources have been historically examined?
Why do players from Eastern countries have to fill in the population in those locations to obtain the raw materials from Western countries with numerous production locations? Why ignoring the information and historical research provided by players, only discussing how the game content can be fully played under the existing design?
For example, if Europe only has one iron location in the game, I say here: anyway, the population can be relocated there, and 5000 pops in one location can produce the same amount of iron as 50 other locations in other regions. So there's no need for any modifications here, just keep it as it is, it's not that it can't be played.

Is it acceptable even if I am provided with maps of all iron ore producing areas in Europe?

The presence of a resource does not equal historical extraction of said resource.

The vast iron mines of northern Sweden were not exploited at scale within the timeframe of the game. Thus they are not included as a resource.

What is most important, that the resources exist in many spread-out locations, or there being enough produced in-game to cover the needs of the player or AI?

And i'm not sure why you think populations can just be freely relocated. There's little historical basis for it, at least in Europe within the timeframe.

 

[luo]

The presence of a resource does not equal historical extraction of said resource.

The vast iron mines of northern Sweden were not exploited at scale within the timeframe of the game. Thus they are not included as a resource.

The maps I provided are all within the time frame of the game, including product maps from the Ming and Qing dynasties. None of them are resource maps from modern China...
You haven't even looked at the information I posted for reference, and you don't even care about this issue. You're just constantly refuting me and maintaining the current material design.

What is most important, that the resources exist in many spread-out locations, or there being enough produced in-game to cover the needs of the player or AI?

In China, the most important producer of silk, is the number of silk production locations only a fraction of other regions? Is this data sufficient?
Considering the impact of India's raw silk exports in the 18th century, it is acceptable for India to have 33 locations for silk production, but China should have at least the same number of silk production locations.

And i'm not sure why you think populations can just be freely relocated. There's little historical basis for it, at least in Europe within the timeframe.

One location in China could have 500.000 pops producing dyes.

You're right, it can't be done in China either. So your example is simply not valid.