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Well, I'm not sure that Shams is wrong when he's talking about trends within the data, as such. But I am curious about what kind of games Majesty was being compared with, because that might change the picture a bit.
I mean, I considered one of the major problems with Maj2's development was that either Paradox and/or InoCo thought of Majesty primarily as a lightweight RTS title, rather than primarily a Sim-like game. I suppose it was an understandable mistake, but I'm just wondering if a misleading comparison is being made here again.
I mean, I considered one of the major problems with Maj2's development was that either Paradox and/or InoCo thought of Majesty primarily as a lightweight RTS title, rather than primarily a Sim-like game. I suppose it was an understandable mistake, but I'm just wondering if a misleading comparison is being made here again.
yeah, I thought about that recently. Something like "what you think Majesty is?" to identify the core of Majesty experience.
Unfortunately not.
But have a peek at publically available data.
http://steamcharts.com/app/73020
Compare this to a game that equally old:
http://steamcharts.com/app/25890
or
http://steamcharts.com/app/42890
While they don't paint the entire picture they're pretty telling of the popularity of the series.
/shams
Whoa, didn't know such data were available. Could you please set those values in some frame? What is profitable for you? What investment/playability after x years show profitability or whatever (if you understand me, the basis for decision on those data).
And the STEAM time that it shows? Because the curves looks quite harmonic with peak around 22:00. I guess that Paradox gamers aren't equally distributed all around world
(or gamers at all, as this trend can be seen in more games).
And again, this argument shows that Majesty 2 isn't played, not reasons why. I still play Majesty 1 and I don't play Majesty 2.
Is there way to check sales as well? Or this is locked and only available to developers? (I saw interesting statistics of one indie game posted on blog, with different price every day, it was quite interesting).
Do you consider Sword of the Stars dead series as well?
And the STEAM time that it shows? Because the curves looks quite harmonic with peak around 22:00. I guess that Paradox gamers aren't equally distributed all around world
(or gamers at all, as this trend can be seen in more games).And again, this argument shows that Majesty 2 isn't played, not reasons why. I still play Majesty 1 and I don't play Majesty 2.
Is there way to check sales as well? Or this is locked and only available to developers? (I saw interesting statistics of one indie game posted on blog, with different price every day, it was quite interesting).
Do you consider Sword of the Stars dead series as well?
@Shams: Thanks for pointing out that data. It doesn't really surprise me as such, but again, I'd have to argue that the popularity of Maj2 isn't a good indicator of market potential for a "proper" sequel, precisely because Maj2 didn't live up to a lot of fans' expectations.
It's interesting to note, for example, that the Majesty HD figures seem to be holding relatively steady. Of course, if you go by absolute numbers, they're pitiful- but if you go by staying power, more than a decade after release, they're not too shabby.
I think the more apt comparison might be with a somewhat younger game that you recently released an acclaimed successor to. I honest-to-Krolm believe that a properly-executed Majesty sequel could have a similar reception. Maj2 just wasn't up to it.
@Colombo: IIIRC, exact sales totals are only available for consoles, and I can't seem to google those anymore. Probably around some place, though.
It's interesting to note, for example, that the Majesty HD figures seem to be holding relatively steady. Of course, if you go by absolute numbers, they're pitiful- but if you go by staying power, more than a decade after release, they're not too shabby.
I think the more apt comparison might be with a somewhat younger game that you recently released an acclaimed successor to. I honest-to-Krolm believe that a properly-executed Majesty sequel could have a similar reception. Maj2 just wasn't up to it.
@Colombo: IIIRC, exact sales totals are only available for consoles, and I can't seem to google those anymore. Probably around some place, though.
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Another factor to consider: what is good enough of a performance for a majesty sequel? I think we could do a majesty game that sells +25% better than M2, which sold ok. But the stakes are a bit higher today than they were in 2008.
Next week I'm going to bring this up with the person in charge of the majesty franchise and have an honest to god talk about M3 and see if anything's changed.
Regarding the earlier question. A game that has about 30 active players daily is really not good, then again it was released 6-7 years ago. If any of the majesty games would have had about 100 players it would be a strong indicator.
Both Fred and I would love to do M3. It's a question of figuring out how to do it in a way that works in today's market/our business.
Now back to W2!
/s
But the problem is you shouldn't look at M2 to have an indication of how badly fans want a sequel but at M1 !
Even if I loved M2, I know I was disappointed with the lack of randomness in the maps and the somewhat very small scale compared to M1.
M1 had more sim elements for your town (how the caravans worked for instance : being able to place them where you want and the fact they had a gameplay impact on your heroes (selling potions)).
If nowadays 2 has so few players it's maybe because it's a game with a very low replaybility value even if the game is good. I know a sequel to M1 (not M2) would be an instabuy (even with the price policy of W2 that prevented me from buying day 1)
And I repeat it : I loved M2. But for me I "finished" the game and have no real invcentive to replay it.
Even if I loved M2, I know I was disappointed with the lack of randomness in the maps and the somewhat very small scale compared to M1.
M1 had more sim elements for your town (how the caravans worked for instance : being able to place them where you want and the fact they had a gameplay impact on your heroes (selling potions)).
If nowadays 2 has so few players it's maybe because it's a game with a very low replaybility value even if the game is good. I know a sequel to M1 (not M2) would be an instabuy (even with the price policy of W2 that prevented me from buying day 1)
And I repeat it : I loved M2. But for me I "finished" the game and have no real invcentive to replay it.
What data? What data could you possibly base such an assumption on? The same sort of data Triple A developers used to determine that Horror Games were a dead genre and that no one wanted to play Isometric RPG's anymore? Based on how Majesty 2, a game that should have never been called a sequel, did? Show me another game like Majesty to compare data to. You can't because no other game like Majesty has ever been made. All of the "Like Majesty" games are games that play nothing like Majesty and have one or two similarities.
Why not just make CoD and Gears of War clone games like the Triple A devs if you're going to think like that? What Paradox Game should exist if you were going by that?
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This, even fans who defended Majesty 2 defended it as a stand alone product, saying it was a good game for what it was but often conceding that it failed at what made Majesty so charming.
Which was heroes that wander around on their own little adventures on random maps full of upgradable guilds and economy buildings, waves of monsters, and funny quest missions.
And the hero AI wasn't complicated, they basically just moved around on an invisible grid following priority queues with random variables.
Having heroes just walk patrol paths around the base, instantly finishing all market activity and only leaving the castle when a flag is put down kind of ruins the charm of it in Majesty 2, and having enemy AI that just runs at your castle and doesn't even wander around ruins it.
EDIT: Can somebody move this thread? It really doesn't belong here by now.
@Shams:
I don't mean to belabour the point unnecessarily, and again I'm far from an expert, but I think you kind of have to get away from Maj2 comparisons almost entirely. I reckon doing a properly-executed Majesty 3 will require a near-complete overhaul of Maj2's design agenda, to the extent that they can't be considered the same type of game.
With all sympathy, I really can't recommend IC/InoCo for the job- they're clearly a studio capable of solid work in the right genre, but AI development appears to be one of their persistent weak points, and I cannot think of anything more crucial to the success of a Majesty game than the AI. FWIW, I would suggest the following:
(1) I'm sure George Ledoux loves the attention, but give Jim Dubois a call. If he wants a royalty, give him one. Cyberlore vets will have a much more direct recollection of what the original fanbase wanted.
(2) The original fanbase don't matter here so much as their tastes do, but give some thought to a clean continuity reboot. Blue-skinned elves or gnarly green trolls or joan-of-arc paladins or voodoo-makeup priestesses might seem like a cosmetic thing, but at the least it sends the right message: This is Majesty, damnit.
(3) Either do the job in-house, time allowing at PDS, or give the job to a studio that has direct experience in making well-received Sim-like games.* It's no guarantee, but it'll improve your odds. Please, bide your time until this is possible, or don't do it at all.
*You might, just maybe consider talking to HeroCraft, but I don't know how well Maj Mobile sold, or what the RoI was. I'd have to play it more thoroughly first.
@Shams:
I don't mean to belabour the point unnecessarily, and again I'm far from an expert, but I think you kind of have to get away from Maj2 comparisons almost entirely. I reckon doing a properly-executed Majesty 3 will require a near-complete overhaul of Maj2's design agenda, to the extent that they can't be considered the same type of game.
With all sympathy, I really can't recommend IC/InoCo for the job- they're clearly a studio capable of solid work in the right genre, but AI development appears to be one of their persistent weak points, and I cannot think of anything more crucial to the success of a Majesty game than the AI. FWIW, I would suggest the following:
(1) I'm sure George Ledoux loves the attention, but give Jim Dubois a call. If he wants a royalty, give him one. Cyberlore vets will have a much more direct recollection of what the original fanbase wanted.
(2) The original fanbase don't matter here so much as their tastes do, but give some thought to a clean continuity reboot. Blue-skinned elves or gnarly green trolls or joan-of-arc paladins or voodoo-makeup priestesses might seem like a cosmetic thing, but at the least it sends the right message: This is Majesty, damnit.
(3) Either do the job in-house, time allowing at PDS, or give the job to a studio that has direct experience in making well-received Sim-like games.* It's no guarantee, but it'll improve your odds. Please, bide your time until this is possible, or don't do it at all.
*You might, just maybe consider talking to HeroCraft, but I don't know how well Maj Mobile sold, or what the RoI was. I'd have to play it more thoroughly first.
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Uncomplicated, and exhaustively documented in the official Prima Guide. We're not expecting neural nets here. The biggest problem with Maj2's AI wasn't the lack of complexity so much as it's baffling wrong-headedness. (100 gold reward on a 1000-HP werewolf? "HURP-DURP SOUNDS GOOD TO ME" said the suicidal level-1 wizard)
EDIT: Strictly speaking, I can think of a few other games that might compare with Majesty in gameplay: FF Chronicles- My Life as a King, the ill-received Medieval Conquest, and possibly the original Stronghold. I think folks earlier in the thread mentioned other examples, like King of Dragon Pass. (I've mentioned Sims Medieval already, but it would be a better comparison if the game allowed the monarch do actually do monarch-ish things, like delegate responsibility.)
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Even so - if we purely look at Majesty 1 - or heck put all the numbers together - concurrent users, forum activity (posts like yours) - it all tells us there's smarter things we could be doing with our time/developers. We've got limited bandwidth as a company and we have to chose what we do. A vocal minority isn't enough to warrant a course direction. Sorry.
Really? Thinking like that has given us games like Crusader Kings, Warlock, Victoria, Teleglitch, Cities in Motion - that's a far cry from turning into a CoD or GoW machine. That's actually another problem with Majesty - a "proper" majesty sequel is, for me not niche enough, nor is it mainstream enough - it's just too little for us to consider a full sequel. There's a big difference between doing niche and niche.
But Tarantian - you don't seem to believe a word I say - so how about you start your own game company and make us an offer we can't resist. Until then I'm done with your tone and this discussion - I don't have anything to add.
/shams
Really? Thinking like that has given us games like Crusader Kings, Warlock, Victoria, Teleglitch, Cities in Motion - that's a far cry from turning into a CoD or GoW machine. That's actually another problem with Majesty - a "proper" majesty sequel is, for me not niche enough, nor is it mainstream enough - it's just too little for us to consider a full sequel. There's a big difference between doing niche and niche.
But Tarantian - you don't seem to believe a word I say - so how about you start your own game company and make us an offer we can't resist. Until then I'm done with your tone and this discussion - I don't have anything to add.
/shams
Shams, with due respect, your company kind of poisoned the well, and now you're complaining that nobody's coming to drink. (Going by forum activity is particularly strange, given that the Cyberlore boards went down years before the IP acquisition, and only a few of us ever migrated.)
As I gather, your argument has been based on Maj2's numbers, and your estimate that you might be able to do, say, 25% better this time around. I would invite you to imagine how much better Maj2 could have sold if it had (A) functional (and co-op) multiplayer, (B) at least the full range of the original's content, (C) AI that was at least as performant/colourful as the original, and (D) random map generation and freestyle play (heck, if we're dreaming big, maybe even a sandbox campaign.) Now, I don't know what kind of numbers that translates to, but I bet it's a shade better than 25% over.
There's no mystery surrounding why folks don't still play Maj2: because it has no replay value.
This is not a subjective matter of taste- these are all things which were objectively missing from Maj2, and present (or at least markedly less problematic) in the original. You say you are a company that prides itself on seeing the smart opportunities. Well, please, use your intelligence, and extrapolate a wee bit- it's absurd to suggest the presence or absence of these features wouldn't have a marked effect on sales and longevity. Lord knows what would happen if you actually improved on Maj1.
EDIT: Anyway, like I said- if you have more pressing things on your plate at the moment, or the right dev team isn't available right now, that's understandable. But that's a matter of circumstances, and different from saying Maj3 is intrinsically not worth your time.
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Anyways, I can't speak for Tarantian, but I guess I should apologise for helping to drag out the discussion as long as it has. It wasn't my intention to distract from news/updates about W2, and I hope it's players enjoy what's on offer.
I'd love a Majesty game focused on the Arethi elves, like the Monster expansion. Perhaps as DLC for M2 rather than a new game.
My sentiments on M2 are mixed. In some ways, it was a huge improvement over M1, but in others it was a tackier, less polished game. I also disliked the typical OP melee heroes, such as the Paladin, and would've liked some competitive spellcaster ones. The Priestess of Krypta was very powerful, which was nice, but I'd like for more ellite spellcaster heroes, on par with the likes of the Paladin. I also missed the library from M1, which allowed more heroes to cross-specialise in some vital spells, the Teleportation amulets, the wizard teleportation spell (loved this) and the Sorcerer's Lab (or w/e it was), which gave you some amazing spells. Introducing mana as a resource for Wizard guild spells would also have been nice.
M2 did provide some amazing expansions, like Monster Kingdom. It just lacked in the balance department, and some of the maps felt very same-y. I mean how many times can you put down goblins without it becoming something of a chore?
I was hoping Folk Lore would provide a good alternative to M3, but it's been very slow in development. Warlock 2 and AoW3 will have to do for now.
My sentiments on M2 are mixed. In some ways, it was a huge improvement over M1, but in others it was a tackier, less polished game. I also disliked the typical OP melee heroes, such as the Paladin, and would've liked some competitive spellcaster ones. The Priestess of Krypta was very powerful, which was nice, but I'd like for more ellite spellcaster heroes, on par with the likes of the Paladin. I also missed the library from M1, which allowed more heroes to cross-specialise in some vital spells, the Teleportation amulets, the wizard teleportation spell (loved this) and the Sorcerer's Lab (or w/e it was), which gave you some amazing spells. Introducing mana as a resource for Wizard guild spells would also have been nice.
M2 did provide some amazing expansions, like Monster Kingdom. It just lacked in the balance department, and some of the maps felt very same-y. I mean how many times can you put down goblins without it becoming something of a chore?
I was hoping Folk Lore would provide a good alternative to M3, but it's been very slow in development. Warlock 2 and AoW3 will have to do for now.
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I wouldn't go so far to say we poisoned the well...
but you definitely have a point - look we understand majesty 2 wasn't the majesty game a lot of majesty fans were hoping for. We're not sitting around going - "damn those grumpy M1 players - why didn't they buy enough of M2!?" We know full well what the implications were of taking the game in another direction.I wasn't around at the time when they designed it so I can't really say. But Paradox motto has always been - "we make games we like to play ourselves" and Majesty 2 is a game a lot of people internally at Paradox enjoy more than M1. Most prominently - our CEO Fred.
So don't make the mistake of assuming that an M3 would automatically mean us moving closer to M1 - it might even be a step further away.
That said - there are a lot of M1 fans as well - and when/if we seriously revisit the idea of doing another Majesty we'll make sure to gauge what the community feels. That's what makes us different from the Activisions/EA's - you can have this conversation with the person in charge of deciding what games is made next.
/shams
This does remind be a lot of the discontinuity debate regarding Heroes III/IV vs HoMM V and VI.
I really enjoyed M2 and its DLC, so if you guys do move to a M3, you would have my support.
I really enjoyed M2 and its DLC, so if you guys do move to a M3, you would have my support.
This does remind be a lot of the discontinuity debate regarding Heroes III/IV vs HoMM V and VI.
I really enjoyed M2 and its DLC, so if you guys do move to a M3, you would have my support.
I think that's a great comparison.
Heroes of Might and Magic III was the pinnacle in the series and few fantasy/strategy games have ever come close. I still play it regularly.
Clearly M2 wasn't our Homm3 - but neither was Majesty 1 to be hones.
I really don't want Paradox to take the Majesty series and do what Ubi did with Homm. Sure they're making much more money now with the style of game that Homm6 is - but it's not catering to all the old fans clamoring for more Homm3. Problem is that they can't do a Homm3 because that would a be a super niche product today and they can't turn niche into something super profitable (a requirement for them)
We however do know how to do niche and turn it into something that's financially successful - but I'm not sure simply take M1 - updating the graphics and doing minor improvements is the right way. And until we find the right way we're not going to walk down this path.
/shams
Well, this is kind of why I suggested getting in touch with Jim Dubois, since cyberlore's prototype for a sequel (majesty: legends) actually planned to overhaul a lot of Maj1's features and add new ones, based on a thorough assessment of the original's strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure he'll be the first to tell you that Maj1 was not perfect, but I'm pretty sure the sequel he'd like to see would certainly include more than minor tweaks and updates. (I know mine would.)
(On an aside, Maj1 isn't actually my favourite game- that possibly goes to caesar 3 or simcity 3000- but it was the game that I saw the most untapped potential in. Also, great community.)
I can't speak for Fredrick's tastes in this regard, but if he has any fondness for Crusader Kings: The Old Gods, I'd say to him: I want that, but with fireballs and healing potions. And a cappucino latte. And a toblerone.