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That's an insult to Jutland. Naval combat represents some sick fantasies, where destroyers are always in torpedo range and battleships are both at this range and beyond the horizon at the same time to ensure they can't hit anything while being an easy target themselves, and where submarines are both submerged and surfaced at once.

As artificial as the naming convention goes, Armor Scheme III might be treated as redistribution of armor weight within the same displacement, though.

Bear in mind that the naval combat system needs to be an abstraction - it can never be RtW3 (well, I mean, we can dream :) ). The previous system placed far too much emphasis on out-ranging, even though at extreme ranges the percentage of shots scored were so tiny they were generally a waste of ammunition.

The system since Man the Guns represents a situation where in most cases, both sides when engaging for most of the engagement could engage each other. Situations where one side wailed on the other outside of their effective engagement range, on the other hand, are far less common. While there are exceptions, and the treatment of torpedoes in HoI4 more generally causes all sorts of issues, I prefer the MtG system to the pre-MtG system (which was at least as unrealistic, and far harder to follow in the UX as well) - although the new system has a lot of work to do to get aircraft carriers where I'd like them.

It's important to bear in mind that naval/maritime things have never been Paradox's strength and that naval/maritime things are hard (unlike land and air warfare, that tends to last longer and be more granular, a strategically important naval engagement can literally turn on one shell landing in the right/wrong place) and so all of these systems are (hopefully) on a slow path to getting better (so suggesting ways to make them better is definitely a good idea :) ).
 
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Yes, it was planed like the Blueprint shows as an Battleship. The 2 Scharnhorst-Ships had the highest HP from all Warships in Europe and US.

But you have to look from what they come from. The 280-mm-Guns come from the Pocket-Battleships (Tankships Deutschland-Class) and were an advanced Version from them. The Design is more like an real Dreadnought with higher Tonnages, modern Engines with more HP than the Bismarck-Class, an complete redesigend Hull to the Predecessors, an Battleship-Armor and more modern extern & intern electronical Equipments.

The Problem from the Sharnhorst-Class is, that the Sharnhorst-Class had an lighter Calibre the fully War. It shoud get an real Battleship later with an Modernisation from the Main-Armement (9x 280-mm-Guns in 3 Turrets) with the Bismark-Class-Armement (6x 380-mm-Guns in 3 Turrets). The 2 Bismarck-Class-Ships should then get an modernisation from the Main-Armement (6x 380-mm-Guns in 3 Turrets to 6x 400 or 420-mm-Guns in 3 Turrets).

In that Case the Sharnhorst-Class were from the Armour Battleships, from the Main-Weaponary & Secondary-Weaponary & Engines the fastest Battlecruisers in History. That are Facts, we can´t ignore.
I kind-of agree and kind-of disagree with this logic, with the biggest things being how do we compare this both in-game and in-reality to other edge cases?

To start, I do technically lump the Scharnhorst into the German WWI-BC genre on account of its inability to fight *most* other proper battleships in a fight (had they not fought Britain, they would have been effective against everything shy of the Richelieu for France or Russia). That said, Germany is the only nation that ever built that style of light battleship, so it gets a little weird when comparing them to other nations.

In game terms, the Scharnhorst being treated as a battlecruiser is wrong; if the metric used to downgrade it from a battleship are its guns, those don't impact its in-game definition--the armor does. And the armor is definitely battleship grade. Engine speed also doesn't really have any BC/BB rules after WWI, with battleship engines varying by over 100,000 shp (more than the total weight of some BC engines). If Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Richelieu, Littorio, and Yamato all fail to meet historic speed capabilities, then they probably need a faster engine (I'm in favor of those nations starting with BB-engine 3, among numerous added naval techs across the board). Moreover, the Iowa class would define as a battlecruiser if speed and hull were used to define it rather than protection first, with the ship having a slightly-thinner armor belt than the Scharnhorst and a relatively-narrow beam to allow passage through the Panama canal (plus its very high speed). As a random note as well, despite having a large engine by battleship terms, Scharnhorst's engine is about the same size as the Trento-class heavy cruiser's engine (150,000 shp).

As for reality, it's important to remember that while the limited capabilities of Scharnhorst's guns might drop their actual performance down from battleships, a few keys do need to be noted as exceptions:
  1. It's hullform is still battleship-like (this isn't a long, narrow hull built for speed over survivability like other battlecruisers or narrow fast battleships).
  2. Italy's 4 dreadnought refits would downgrade to battlecruiser if capabilities were used to define them rather than design (they are underarmored compared to any fast battleship, and their guns are only 320mm). By comparison, most other toss-ups are originally-built as battlecruisers (or clearly follow BC specs, like Dunkerque). A bunch of dreadnought designs even compete with battlecruisers for protection (the España-class being the most egregious, with a 305mm 6-8 gun broadside and 8 inches of belt armor).
  3. If another battleship was present (i.e. Tirpitz), the Scharnhorsts could have fought in the line of battle despite being undergunned. The same couldn't really be said for battlecruisers like the Renown or Kongo, which couldn't take hits from large battleship guns. These ships only used their 28cm guns because those were all that could be easily-produced (especially since they were already in production) by Weimar Germany compared to several larger gun plans.
One last note, regarding a refit of the Bismarck's guns I think that may be an error, the Bismarck had 4 twin turrets, not 3 triples (so they couldn't swap for wider twin barrels). Boring the guns out could bring up their width, but I'm not familiar with any work done to test the feasibility of this (due to weakening the barrel, plus whether the ammo hoist could support the new ammo). The 406mm guns for the H-39 were considered feasible to bore out to 420mm, but it probably helped that the ships hadn't been built when that design change was proposed for the H-41 (no actual ship work) and the guns were described as oversized.
 
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I ask me what is the minium of tonnage that a ship get in this list? I ask for the manchurian navy. There a some DD with 200+ and many old and modern river boats with a tonnage of 40 -50.
 
I ask me what is the minium of tonnage that a ship get in this list? I ask for the manchurian navy. There a some DD with 200+ and many old and modern river boats with a tonnage of 40 -50.
Major nations stop short a lot heavier than minor nations do; that said, the smallest I can think of are the Norwegian Draug-class at 587 tons.
 
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I ask me what is the minium of tonnage that a ship get in this list? I ask for the manchurian navy. There a some DD with 200+ and many old and modern river boats with a tonnage of 40 -50.

Going down to 200 tons would open quite the can of worms. At that size, you're looking mostly at vessels designed for coastal work, and there are no real coastal mechanics in-game (and definitely no riverine warfare mechanics), so you'd end up with small patrol craft taking part in mid-Pacific fleet actions (plus all sorts of UX issues managing them). The Manchurian navy at one point had one of the old Momo class destroyers for a patch between 1937 and 1943 - that's probably their best option for a warship within the scope of HoI4's design.
 
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Going down to 200 tons would open quite the can of worms. At that size, you're looking mostly at vessels designed for coastal work, and there are no real coastal mechanics in-game (and definitely no riverine warfare mechanics), so you'd end up with small patrol craft taking part in mid-Pacific fleet actions (plus all sorts of UX issues managing them). The Manchurian navy at one point had one of the old Momo class destroyers for a patch between 1937 and 1943 - that's probably their best option for a warship within the scope of HoI4's design.

I am agree with you. But by the SMS Vaterland i get "African Queen" Hollywood feeling. Soi maybe 3 or 4 DD with HaiFeng or Shun Tien Class? The history of the Schichau Werke ( Elbing in East Prussia and Danzig) and the German empire Royal Tsingtao dockyard looks intressting. There are other german companys they have also build chinese pre war armoured cruiser and ww2 submarines which i have never heard of them. It's how the truckcompany Beizhi in Noth China or Minsheng/ Zohngshan in Shanghai but this is a other topic.

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I kind-of agree and kind-of disagree with this logic, with the biggest things being how do we compare this both in-game and in-reality to other edge cases?

To start, I do technically lump the Scharnhorst into the German WWI-BC genre on account of its inability to fight *most* other proper battleships in a fight (had they not fought Britain, they would have been effective against everything shy of the Richelieu for France or Russia). That said, Germany is the only nation that ever built that style of light battleship, so it gets a little weird when comparing them to other nations.

In game terms, the Scharnhorst being treated as a battlecruiser is wrong; if the metric used to downgrade it from a battleship are its guns, those don't impact its in-game definition--the armor does. And the armor is definitely battleship grade. Engine speed also doesn't really have any BC/BB rules after WWI, with battleship engines varying by over 100,000 shp (more than the total weight of some BC engines). If Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Richelieu, Littorio, and Yamato all fail to meet historic speed capabilities, then they probably need a faster engine (I'm in favor of those nations starting with BB-engine 3, among numerous added naval techs across the board). Moreover, the Iowa class would define as a battlecruiser if speed and hull were used to define it rather than protection first, with the ship having a slightly-thinner armor belt than the Scharnhorst and a relatively-narrow beam to allow passage through the Panama canal (plus its very high speed). As a random note as well, despite having a large engine by battleship terms, Scharnhorst's engine is about the same size as the Trento-class heavy cruiser's engine (150,000 shp).

As for reality, it's important to remember that while the limited capabilities of Scharnhorst's guns might drop their actual performance down from battleships, a few keys do need to be noted as exceptions:
  1. It's hullform is still battleship-like (this isn't a long, narrow hull built for speed over survivability like other battlecruisers or narrow fast battleships).
  2. Italy's 4 dreadnought refits would downgrade to battlecruiser if capabilities were used to define them rather than design (they are underarmored compared to any fast battleship, and their guns are only 320mm). By comparison, most other toss-ups are originally-built as battlecruisers (or clearly follow BC specs, like Dunkerque). A bunch of dreadnought designs even compete with battlecruisers for protection (the España-class being the most egregious, with a 305mm 6-8 gun broadside and 8 inches of belt armor).
  3. If another battleship was present (i.e. Tirpitz), the Scharnhorsts could have fought in the line of battle despite being undergunned. The same couldn't really be said for battlecruisers like the Renown or Kongo, which couldn't take hits from large battleship guns. These ships only used their 28cm guns because those were all that could be easily-produced (especially since they were already in production) by Weimar Germany compared to several larger gun plans.
One last note, regarding a refit of the Bismarck's guns I think that may be an error, the Bismarck had 4 twin turrets, not 3 triples (so they couldn't swap for wider twin barrels). Boring the guns out could bring up their width, but I'm not familiar with any work done to test the feasibility of this (due to weakening the barrel, plus whether the ammo hoist could support the new ammo). The 406mm guns for the H-39 were considered feasible to bore out to 420mm, but it probably helped that the ships hadn't been built when that design change was proposed for the H-41 (no actual ship work) and the guns were described as oversized.
Even Dunkerque had an immunity zone where the 28cm guns would struggle to realistically harm her but her 33cm guns would have been able to cause damage to the Scharnhorsts in return thanks to her superb 15mm + 125-115mm +40mm deck scheme..
 
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One last note, regarding a refit of the Bismarck's guns I think that may be an error, the Bismarck had 4 twin turrets, not 3 triples (so they couldn't swap for wider twin barrels). Boring the guns out could bring up their width, but I'm not familiar with any work done to test the feasibility of this (due to weakening the barrel, plus whether the ammo hoist could support the new ammo). The 406mm guns for the H-39 were considered feasible to bore out to 420mm, but it probably helped that the ships hadn't been built when that design change was proposed for the H-41 (no actual ship work) and the guns were described as oversized.
The only situation I know where guns were bored was on the Italian rebuilds from 12" to 12.6", but the whole turrets were pulled out and refurbished,I know that Scharnhosts didn't get theirs due to war but also due to them already being fore heavy and having trouble in heavier seas, so when Gneisenau was damaged, she could have been redesigned again to try and mitigate those issues, again. As for Bismarck's refit, I also never heard of it, I imagine that if she somehow managed to escape to France or Norway, she would have received a Torpedo launcher and more AA like Tirpitz.
 
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The only situation I know where guns were bored was on the Italian rebuilds from 12" to 12.6", but the whole turrets were pulled out and refurbished,I know that Scharnhosts didn't get theirs due to war but also due to them already being fore heavy and having trouble in heavier seas, so when Gneisenau was damaged, she could have been redesigned again to try and mitigate those issues, again. As for Bismarck's refit, I also never heard of it, I imagine that if she somehow managed to escape to France or Norway, she would have received a Torpedo launcher and more AA like Tirpitz.
The Germans did plan to bore out the 40,6cm/52 SKC/34 prototype intended for the H39 ships into a 42cm/48 due to having fairly thick barrel and thought as feasible enough.

I've never heard of any planned conversion of Bismarck on the other hand since she doesn't seem to have been designed with a deliberate stop-gap gun and matching barbette sizes to swap.

Apparently guns for Gneissenau were already under construction in 1940 but were instead moved to be used as coastal artillery at Cap de la Hague and Paimpol, later Oksby in Denmark, after Hitler had his tantrum at Raeder.
 
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The Germans did plan to bore out the 40,6cm/52 SKC/34 prototype intended for the H39 ships into a 42cm/48 due to having fairly thick barrel and thought as feasible enough.

I've never heard of any planned conversion of Bismarck on the other hand since she doesn't seem to have been designed with a deliberate stop-gap gun and matching barbette sizes to swap.

Apparently guns for Gneissenau were already under construction in 1940 but were instead moved to be used as coastal artillery at Cap de la Hague and Paimpol, later Oksby in Denmark, after Hitler had his tantrum at Raeder.
The original design for Bismarck was 8x 13" guns in 4 twin mounts with slightly thicker belt (350mm), fitting in 35k tones. After learning that the French and Italians were playing with larger guns, the design was upscaled to project 40k-41k tones, and in preliminary were two designs one with 13.7" guns and one with 15" guns, So you could say that Bismarck was an up-gunned version of a ship.
 
The original design for Bismarck was 8x 13" guns in 4 twin mounts with slightly thicker belt (350mm), fitting in 35k tones. After learning that the French and Italians were playing with larger guns, the design was upscaled to project 40k-41k tones, and in preliminary were two designs one with 13.7" guns and one with 15" guns, So you could say that Bismarck was an up-gunned version of a ship.
I mean in that case the design was altered before the ship was far in construction so changing the design is no issue, that is more similar to the North Carolinas, compared to replacing stuff post-completion.
 
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