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CK2 Dev Diary #29: Illumination

By the grace of God, I am finally back and able to pen another development diary, though my hands are still unsteady from the shocking things I saw while in hiding. I think it best to simply recount my harrowing experiences of the last few weeks. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, there is much to be learned from my travails.

For many months, I had felt that something strange was going on at the office. In hindsight, the signs were all there; colleagues naming their daughters “Sophia”, hushed talk of “secret knowledge” and Dan “podcat” Lind suddenly breaking off his presentation of the next Hearts of Iron IV expansion in order to explain how the Creator is just an “evil emanation of the original Monad”. But it wasn’t until Björn “Metal King” Iversen took me aside to listen to the subliminal messages in various Judas Priest tracks that I finally realized the truth: the company had been infiltrated by Sethian Gnostics! I recognized some of the messages from the Second Treatise of the Great Seth and the Gospel of Judas...

I suddenly did not want to help Björn record any more death sounds. Who knows how many souls he has helped “liberate” from this earthly prison in his infernal studio? He eyed me with suspicion when I assured him that I had already achieved Gnosis. Beating a hasty retreat, I was forced to skulk in various unused meeting rooms for a full week until I could finally make my escape. While in hiding, I witnessed many disturbing sights; people wearing inverted pentagrams and muttering to themselves, a secret follower of Mahomet performing an odd prayer ritual, various outlandish and no doubt fraternal handshakes, and worst of all; a vile heathen festival in the lunchroom involving spiderwebs, skulls and a bloody brew spewing smoke.

The rot runs deep. There are worse things afoot than mere Gnostic heretics... I fear there are several other corrupt sects burrowing like ticks within our ranks. How could this happen? What malign stars have aligned in the skies above our afflicted nation? Dark heresiarchs are at work in the Realm, pulling strings from the shadows and inducting naïve game developers into their subversive cabals. Who can feel safe in these dark times?

I have written the Holy See with a plea for aid. My sole hope lies in the Holy Father, Pope Francis, though I wonder if he is made of stern enough stuff to unleash the Hounds of God, for I fear only the Dominicans can save us now, as they did in the times of Cardinal Torquemada, bless his soul...

May God send us a light, for the darkness surrounds us!

symbol_collection.jpg
 
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I would rather see syncretism with local paganism. Jesus is now a guy with a hammer. ;)
Hey, if you can depict Jesus as an Asian person in Asian churches and an African person in African churches then I see no problem with Thor-Jesus.

The hammer is the weapon of a carpenter after all.
 
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Is it the small, Way of Life sized dlc, or the big one?

An UI suggestion, btw:
an icon on the top of the screen appearing every time when your vassals are fighting in the realm.
 
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Hey, if you can depict Jesus as an Asian person in Asian churches and an African person in African churches then I see no problem with Thor-Jesus.

The hammer is the weapon of a carpenter after all.

That is more about people giving a person who they don't know a (for them) generic appearance, not the full blown syncretism that would be Jesus taking on aspects of Thor.
 
That is more about people giving a person who they don't know a (for them) generic appearance, not the full blown syncretism that would be Jesus taking on aspects of Thor.
I think he meant it as a joke, I certainly did.
 
Yeah I know... You don't seem to have actually read my post.
Philosophy is the pursuit of knowledge, natural philosophy is only different by how it goes about these things. I also mentioned metaphysics which is a widened version of theology (I would argue that metaphysics describes Avicenna's work a lot better than theology)..
There's a difference between mysticism and philosophy though (they however bleed into one another to a degree). And it has nothing to do with the split between natural philosophy and metaphysics.

Like I said I definitely think that philosophy ought to be represented in the game along with it's tensions, but the whole secret society cult mystic thing seems a bit to Dan Brown for my tastes.
I might've misunderstood you or lost your meaning - but please do not accuse me of not reading. Let's be civil. Especially since we seem to be stuck on semantics.

As you yourself have mentioned, the division between science and philosophy is fresh, between what is natural philosophy and what isn't. And when we go into Islamic Neoplatonism it only gets worse, for historic reasons. There's a whole degree of semantic problems here, including the fact that, for example, Islamic scholars used the term falsafa ('philosophy') to describe specifically that which came from Greek texts and wouldn't consider much of their philosophy as well... philosophy. Which is why instead of trying to use their terms I usually stick to our contemporary definitions in casual conversations, as opposed to academic discussions where I have the benefit of looking up tonnes of qotations ;)

Also, the clear cut between what is theology or metaphysics and what is mysticism gets more blurred the more East we go. Al-Ghazali tried to strike a balance between what is mystical and what is orthodox, while criticizing falsafa, for example. Eastern Orthodoxy straight up rejected all that came from "pagan" Greeks. And when we get to pantheistic and panentheistic ideas of the Indian subcontinent, especially in an era when Buddhism was still active in the Subcontinent, all our Eastern definitions of philosophy, theology and mysticism gets pretty much useless...

Anyway, we seem to both agree that more philosophy, both natural and metaphysical, would benefit the game? And that superfluous secret societies and anachronistic flavor could be disappointing. Am I correct?
 
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Hmmm..transplanting parts of Christian dogma into Norse paganism. I could create my own fal...er, *authentic* religion ! All hail the Thor-Jesus !

And best of all...get to keep all those concubines.
 
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It's funny but yesterday I was trying to look for information on the discovery of the burial site for Ulrich von Jungingen, Heinrich von Plauen and one other Grand Master of the Teutonic Order at Marienwerder Castle (Kwidzyn)

Playable monastic orders has always been one thing that I've wanted in the game.
 
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Hmmm..transplanting parts of Christian dogma into Norse paganism. I could create my own fal...er, *authentic* religion ! All hail the Thor-Jesus !

And best of all...get to keep all those concubines.
Well, there are some Germanic traditions even in mainstream Christianity. Just look at that Christmas tree ;)
 
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I can only imagine it now...

My wishes for the new dlc.

CKII: Between the Shadows

A full religious revamp, heresies are revamped if Sons of Abraham is owned. Each religion gets unique mechanics specific to their cultures and customs.
Plots are now dynamic, requiring funding and require more interaction from the player.
Spy Networks are now a thing, allowing you to spy on multiple targets to find out what they are up to. (Similar to the way of life expansion, the way of life focus adds a massive boost to spying)
Multiple ways to try to assassinate your foes.
Names and traits relating to your killings. Such as King Henry the Poisoner of England.
A rumors system which is a new type of plot which allows you to fabricate rumors about your targets. May make people believe that they are something that they are not.
You may try to hide your heretic beliefs from the 'main' religion, such as a Fratacelli hiding in the midst of Catholics.
Councils and any related things for organized religions can condemn heresies. Condemned heretics can be holy warred.
(And perhaps) The ability to create your own heresy/religion.
 
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I might've misunderstood you or lost your meaning - but please do not accuse me of not reading. Let's be civil. Especially since we seem to be stuck on semantics.

As you yourself have mentioned, the division between science and philosophy is fresh, between what is natural philosophy and what isn't. And when we go into Islamic Neoplatonism it only gets worse, for historic reasons. There's a whole degree of semantic problems here, including the fact that, for example, Islamic scholars used the term falsafa ('philosophy') to describe specifically that which came from Greek texts and wouldn't consider much of their philosophy as well... philosophy. Which is why instead of trying to use their terms I usually stick to our contemporary definitions in casual conversations, as opposed to academic discussions where I have the benefit of looking up tonnes of qotations ;)

Also, the clear cut between what is theology or metaphysics and what is mysticism gets more blurred the more East we go. Al-Ghazali tried to strike a balance between what is mystical and what is orthodox, while criticizing falsafa, for example. Eastern Orthodoxy straight up rejected all that came from "pagan" Greeks. And when we get to pantheistic and panentheistic ideas of the Indian subcontinent, especially in an era when Buddhism was still active in the Subcontinent, all our Eastern definitions of philosophy, theology and mysticism gets pretty much useless...

Anyway, we seem to both agree that more philosophy, both natural and metaphysical, would benefit the game? And that superfluous secret societies and anachronistic flavor could be disappointing. Am I correct?
Al-Ghazali is after the islamic golden age ended or at the very least in it's waning days, before him philosophy is a much bigger thing. The greek philosophy was important in the arabic and persian regions up until Avicenna, an even his work was heavily based on Platonian metaphysics. You also have Al-Ghazali's big opponent Averroes, who while never a big name in the muslim world is how aristotle returned to europe. Most places in europe had their first copy of aristotle translated from arabic with Averroes' comments.

Yes I will admit that following Al-Ghazali the muslim "philosophy" very much turned to occasionalism and mysticism. As for india their hilosophy is diffrent from ours, it gets even more diffrent futher east, but I would defiantly say that is is philosophy, I mean consider buddhist atomism.

And yes I would say we are agreed that the game needs a philosophy/science component. In fact is has needed that at least since they added india. In fact probably even longer, before they added the 867 and 769 start dates philosophy was actually a thing in europe for most of the era.

That said I want to stress that i don't want the technology system replaced, some of the things on it could go to a philosophy sytem of course but it is a good representation of other things.
 
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2.No idea what you mean with autocratic government, no ruler rules alone, it might be somewhat more possible today because of technological advancements, but back then, not a chance.

Hopefully that isn't reference to well researched CGP Grey-video.

Anyhow like it or not the Byzantine Empire at least viewed themselves as at one point emperor's title was Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans, and because Wikipedia lists Roman Empire as sole example of autocracy I'm willing to believe that most of its run the Byzantine Empire was an autocracy.

I don't think you get what I mean with autocracy, thus I made this tablet comparison between autocracy and feudal society:

g9MHCss.png
 
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-Cadet branches
-Autocratic government
-Dynamic melting pots
-Base value system
-Gunpowder units
-Something to portray Renaissance
-Name weighting
-Anything to portray naval battles
-More dynamic historical events
What exactly would autocratic government be? Even autocratic rulers had to give up power to subordiantes at the local level. The slowness of travel and communication demanded it.
 
Al-Ghazali is after the islamic golden age ended or at the very least in it's waning days, before him philosophy is a much bigger thing. The greek philosophy was important in the arabic and persian regions up until Avicenna, an even his work was heavily based on Platonian metaphysics. You also have Al-Ghazali's big opponent Averroes, who while never a big name in the muslim world is how aristotle returned to europe. Most places in europe had their first copy of aristotle translated from arabic with Averroes' comments.

Yes I will admit that following Al-Ghazali the muslim "philosophy" very much turned to occasionalism and mysticism.
Of course! And this cycle too would be possibly a fascinating thing to model since it happens within the time frame of the game, though I don't thing the devs will go into that much detail.

And, let's be honest, the Sunni have the Mu'tazili/'Ashari traits at least (bare-bones mechanic as it is) the rest of Islam, as well as many other religions/philosophies badly need more options and heterodoxies (a polite word for 'heresy' I enjoy) are among the ones most wanting.

EDIT in reponse to your edit: I try not to go into Buddhism too much, since as a Buddhism myself I'm always afraid my personal views cloud my perception of Buddhism. And I'm pretty sure I'm heterodox to boot ;)
 
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Sects, sects, sects, that's all they think about :).

Cheers for a most entertaining DD Doomdark, and a most intriguing teaser :cool: .I'm guessing after an expansion based around death, we're giving the recently deceased a range of potential methods to make it to the afterlife? Looking forward to hearing more :).
 
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Hopefully that isn't reference to well researched CGP Grey-video.

Anyhow like it or not the Byzantine Empire at least viewed themselves as at one point emperor's title was Basileus and Autokrator of the Romans, and because Wikipedia lists Roman Empire as sole example of autocracy I'm willing to believe that most of its run the Byzantine Empire was an autocracy.

I don't think you get what I mean with autocracy, thus I made this tablet comparison between autocracy and feudal society:

g9MHCss.png
Haha yes it was, and it's pretty much the only thing in that vid I do agree with.
And while the roman empire did have a supreme ruler it also had a vast bureaucracy. And I agree I would like to see a government type for the byzantine empire.


Of course! And this cycle too would be possibly a fascinating thing to model since it happens within the time frame of the game, though I don't thing the devs will go into that much detail.

And, let's be honest, the Sunni have the Mu'tazili/'Ashari traits at least (bare-bones mechanic as it is) the rest of Islam, as well as many other religions/philosophies badly need more options and heterodoxies (a polite word for 'heresy' I enjoy) are among the ones most wanting.

EDIT in reponse to your edit: I try not to go into Buddhism too much, since as a Buddhism myself I'm always afraid my personal views cloud my perception of Buddhism. And I'm pretty sure I'm heterodox to boot ;)
It's the old ever quickening cycle between reason and "romaniticsm". Whether the god/the universe can be explained logically or if god/the universe is above and beyond human understanding.

While the cycle itself is interesting the fact that it does not do a full revolution in the area and time of the game, I think the cyclical nature of it is best ignored.

Instead I would probably go with idea cards for a philosophy system. Where ideas unlock certain legal and religious doctrinal options and are themselves generated at random depending on previously generated cards, time and place, the scholarship of the ruler and of the character holding a new honorary title called the court scholar, the traits of the ruler and the traits of the ruler and so on.
Oh and if certain conditions are met certain real life scholars should show up in the rough area they did.

Heresies are spawned by event, when the religious doctrine is very different from the religious head the chance increases that a heresy will spawn and the characters who follow the doctrine will become followers of that heresy, if they can push it into mainstream the doctrine of the heresy becomes the doctrine of the religion and the heresy disappears.

But that's just my take on it.
 
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Looking at the post, am I the only one who sees the potential for witch hunters and inquisitors to become a major part of the game? I think it would be incredible if you could decide to call in the inquisition (maybe if you had a large amount of heretical/infidel counties) to just burn everyone at the stake? Maybe some sort of instant mass conversion for a large revolt risk and opinion malus? If nothing else it would add the potential for some great Monty Python references.
 
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