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CK2 Dev Diary #79 - Beautifying the Baltics

Greetings!

Work is progressing splendidly on the upcoming expansion, alas it is still much too early to start talking about any of its many features. Instead, we’ll continue our tour of the cartographer's office.

As I mentioned in the last Dev Diary we’re working our way through some of the more neglected areas of the map - primarily (but not exclusively) focusing our efforts on areas that weren’t that interesting to play in. This time around we’re teasing the upcoming changes to the Baltics, primarily based on tribes that populated the region before the Northern Crusades, again courtesy of [Arthur-PDX]. This time I thought of providing you with a side-by-side comparison, so you can see the changes for yourselves, without having to boot up the game:
Baltics Update.png


Code: 
- Map Update to the Baltics
       - Major overhaul to the Baltic region (mostly encompassing the Kingdom of Lithuania's DeJure territory)
      - (Major) river Daugava moved and reshaped a bit for more accuracy
       - Minor river crossings in Lithuania reshaped for more accuracy
      - 7 provinces added to enhance pre-Livonian Order flavour
       - New duchy of Latgale added
      - All old provinces in the DeJure Lithuanian Kingdom's territory have been reshaped for more historical & cultural accuracy
      - New kingdom of Estonia, formable by holding the duchies of Estonia and the new duchy of Kalava

Please note that the time between Dev Diaries will be irregular, as we’re very early in the development cycle.
 
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YozoraMikazuki said:
Will I be able to load my current Lithuania save after the map changing patch will come out?
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Probably not, at least not without issue.

New counties and duchies means new titles who have no owner in the save. Redistributing them, and claim, to current owners, would need a whole conversion layer, and that's without issues like tech/buildings/culture/religion in the counties. CK2 has a small team, so I doubt they have much time for this.

I'm not an expert though. You should maybe look at how it was managed for Jade Dragon's map expansion.
 
Lithu said:
Probably not, at least not without issue.

New counties and duchies means new titles who have no owner in the save. Redistributing them, and claim, to current owners, would need a whole conversion layer, and that's without issues like tech/buildings/culture/religion in the counties. CK2 has a small team, so I doubt they have much time for this.

I'm not an expert though. You should maybe look at how it was managed for Jade Dragon's map expansion.
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Oh... How much time I have 'till the patch will come out?
 
YozoraMikazuki said:
Oh... How much time I have 'till the patch will come out?
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Nothing's been announced yet and DDs are sparse. Count on at least three months, four or five being more likely.
 
YozoraMikazuki said:
Oh... How much time I have 'till the patch will come out?
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Note that you will be able to keep playing your game in the older version. With the "betas" options in Steam, you have access to the previous versions.

Simply be mindful to not load your game in the wrong version of the game if you have not finished by then, and everything should be fine.
 
Could we also please get ship building technology with viking age in Estonia aswell? And ability to sail through rivers.
Also about the new chiefdoms in Estonia look littlebit too big to what they were. They were more like single counties, all raiding and killing each other.
 
Although it pains me to say this, but Žemaitija (samogotia) never technically had connection to the sea. It was very important region and I would even say that it should have more holdings than neighboring provinces, since it alone could push back enemies. But again, it never had port or anything and at best relied on Ventė/Skalva (in game Scalovia province though Memel shouldn't divide Žematija and Scalovia at this point in history or province Lamata should be added in northwest Scalovia and south Memel) or Palanga for its connection to Baltic sea. Palanga was vassal of Žemaitija at one point, but for most of its history it was under Memel or, before Teutons, Kuršas (Kuršžemė in game) or more precise - Mėguva/Pilsotas (region from Klaipėda/Memel to river Bartuva or Liepajos lake).
I would suggest cropping Žemaitija a bit but in return giving it more holdings than average on this area and giving some defensive buildings with better garrison from the start. Also adding very small province Palanga (or Mėguva if you want to be historically accurate) so you could give it to Lithuanian Kingdom at the start dates where it is already united. And by making it something like 1-2 holding province you'll represent the fact that it was never major harbor city in the region perfectly.
Here are some reference maps, but they aren't very precise since their point is to show cultural borders at around 10th century: http://istorijatau.lt/rubrikos/zemelapiai/436-baltai
I do have some more precise maps but couldn't find those on internet. Here in Lithuania there are some nationalistic sentiments that we were once huge nation from Baltic to Black seas and thus facts and historical analysis that lessens this aren't looked favorable upon
 
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Carroarmato-P40 said:
That said, the new work on the Polish territories are looking quite juicey too, all except Krakow should not be in the same duchy as Upper-Silesia.
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And the new Nowa Marchia (Neumark) province definitely shouldn't be called like that. It was the name first used after Germans took the region over and was never used before that and it wouldn't make sense to be used by Poles either.
 
Matihood1 said:
And the new Nowa Marchia (Neumark) province definitely shouldn't be called like that. It was the name first used after Germans took the region over and was never used before that and it wouldn't make sense to be used by Poles either.
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This argument has been used many times already.
But on all Polish maps of medieval history I can either see it called as Nowa Marchia or with no name at all.
So how was the region around Cedynia, Gorzów, Pyrzyce, Santok, Drzeń and Walcz called? Did it have any name? or should it be divided among surrounding provinces? What are better suggestions than Nowa Marchia?
 
elvain said:
This argument has been used many times already.
But on all Polish maps of medieval history I can either see it called as Nowa Marchia or with no name at all.
So how was the region around Cedynia, Gorzów, Pyrzyce, Santok, Drzeń and Walcz called? Did it have any name? or should it be divided among surrounding provinces? What are better suggestions than Nowa Marchia?
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Maybe you've been looking at the maps from a later period. None of the maps portraying Poland pre-XIII century I've seen has any mention of Nowa Marchia on it. That region used to be divided between Pomerania, Lubusz Land and Greater Poland, the exact division varies. The name Neumark was first used after the expansion of Margraviate of Brandenburg in the XIII century, Nowa Marchia is just a Polish translation of that name.

I would rather see that province split between surrounding provinces (which would most likely have to be reshaped) rather than using the historically German creation to represent that part of Poland (or whatever de jure kingdom that province would be). It just doesn't fit there.
 
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Matihood1 said:
Maybe you've been looking at the maps from a later period. None of the maps portraying Poland pre-XIII century I've seen has any mention of Nowa Marchia on it. That region used to be divided between Pomerania, Lubusz Land and Greater Poland, the exact division varies. The name Neumark was first used after the expansion of Margraviate of Brandenburg in the XIII century, Nowa Marchia is just a Polish translation of that name.

I would rather see that province split between surrounding provinces (which would most likely had to be reshaped) rather than using the historically German creation to represent that part of Poland (or whatever de jure kingdom that province would be). It just doesn't fit there.
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thanks for your opinion.

btw, what's wrong with my post? With what do you disagree? I thought I only asked how you Poles think the problem with wrongly named province should be solved.

PS: Those maps having it in as Nowa Marchia indeed show 1275 and later dates. The one before - as I said - have nothing there, that's why I asked how to solve it.
 
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Matihood1 said:
Maybe you've been looking at the maps from a later period. None of the maps portraying Poland pre-XIII century I've seen has any mention of Nowa Marchia on it. That region used to be divided between Pomerania, Lubusz Land and Greater Poland, the exact division varies. The name Neumark was first used after the expansion of Margraviate of Brandenburg in the XIII century, Nowa Marchia is just a Polish translation of that name.

I would rather see that province split between surrounding provinces (which would most likely had to be reshaped) rather than using the historically German creation to represent that part of Poland (or whatever de jure kingdom that province would be). It just doesn't fit there.
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Ypu still not say how it should called instead. You just say 'It shouldn't be called Nowa Marchia' but... how should it be called in your opinion?
 
Thure said:
Ypu still not say how it should called instead. You just say 'It shouldn't be called Nowa Marchia' but... how should it be called in your opinion?
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Didn't he answer your question?
Matihood1 said:
I would rather see that province split between surrounding provinces (which would most likely had to be reshaped) rather than using the historically German creation to represent that part of Poland (or whatever de jure kingdom that province would be). It just doesn't fit there.
Click to expand...
 
elvain said:
So how was the region around Cedynia, Gorzów, Pyrzyce, Santok, Drzeń and Walcz called? Did it have any name? or should it be divided among surrounding provinces? What are better suggestions than Nowa Marchia?
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Been checking with some other people internally, and from what we discussed, the issue is that Neumark, when Polish, was part of Lubusz (or another province that is already in game and separate), so it was kind of an awkward situation.

The maps I checked were calling the region "Now Marchia" as well, thus the original naming, but I was curious and we talked about it a bit with others. I've decided to name the province "Santok" (based on its main holding) when it's in Polish & Pomeranian hands (maybe Czech as well, but I don't remember).


Arthur
 
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