CO Word of the Week #5

[pedro_pujols]

Yes, the game is out now and there's no going back.

I find this quite disrespectful, as well as the message where you say that "the game may not be for everyone." Yes, there's no turning back now, but it would be good to stop defending something that is indefensible. You must admit that you released an unfinished game and turned us into your beta testers after setting rather high expectations and promoting features that are not in it, and you charged the price for a "finished game" when it's not. Stop defending the game as if it fulfills all the advertised features. If the game were today as you promised, no one would be wasting their time here or on other forums denouncing what has happened and reporting bugs. The statistics are there; there are more people playing CS1 than CS2 When CS2 is supposed to be the sequel and, therefore, the replacement for CS1. Your excuses should be posted on the next WOW, where most players and journalists read, and not in a comment section where it will ultimately get lost among other messages.

-Fix the bugs and graphics. (And if a bug is not a bug, publicly make it clear whether it is a feature or something else.)
-Optimize the game.
-Fix the simulation.
-Respect the established dates.

Do these things in a razonable timeframe. And believe me, these actions will speak for you and may restore your lost reputation. Undoubtedly, this game has the potential to be everything you announced and much more.

 

[FightingFirst]

Cities: Skylines II is the better game compared to the first one.

That isn't what the reviews say.

For instance, on Metacritic the first game sits at an average of 85 for critic reviews and 8.7 for audience reviews.

In comparison, Cities 2 sits on 75 for critic reviews and a 3.6 for audience reviews.

You might say it is better but both professionals and customers alike don't agree with you. It is quite alarming that you are making such a statement considering the state Cities 2 is in. Sure, it might one day get there, but what you have released at the moment is a long way from rivaling the first according to public opinion.

If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you.

The classic "its the players fault".

I would strongly suggest re-phrasing this statement. A lot of the people that are rightly disappointed about about the state of Cities 2 are people who liked Cities 1. The disappointment felt by a large proportion of the player base is a direct result of a failure of leadership at Colossal Order in agreeing to launch a game in such a state. It frankly from my perspective shows a complete disregard to your fans.

There are numerous issues with your product such as performance issues being one such area. And that is before looking at the marketing campaign that suggested a lot better simulation than was delivered. Do you really believe the game was launched in a fit state for your fans?

If there is a bug that ruins it for you there's a good chance it's fixed sometime in the future.

That is really good to know. I am congnisant of the fact that no piece of software will launch without bugs, however, I am intrigued to know why it was thought Cities 2 was ready for release in its current state? I doubt you will answer this but from my perspective it shows a lack of regard for the fans of your product. Certainly, many other developers in the gaming industry have made this mistake recently (CD Project Red being a recent example), it would be nice if companies actually started learning from this and putting their customers first.

Games are a subjective experience and it is impossible to please everyone.

Yes but when so many people (see reviews above) are complaining then you have to start thinking...maybe it is us and not the fans?

There's a bugfixing patch on its way soon however, so hopefully we'll be able to resolve at least some of the issues that may be a deal breaker for some. We thank you for your patience!

You know it would be a lot nicer if I hadn't had to drop money on a game and show "patience"...this again comes back to treating your fans with a modicum of respect.

The performance is not where we want it to be and we are hard at work to improve it. This is also the reason the consoles were delayed.

Why was the PC version not delayed then? That is a question I haven't seen answered. Again, I doubt you will answer this question, but do you feel (in hindsight) it was an acceptable decision to release the game in the state it was?

The modding support is an important part of a Colossal Order game, so it will also be rolling out as soon as possible.

Great news. Again this should have been in release but I will take it, thank you for trying to get it out ASAP.

We are disappointed we couldn't make these aspects of the game ready for you on time, but we refuse to give up. The missing features and platforms will be available in the upcoming months.

This release just smacks of a failure in leadership frankly. Someone should have had the moral courage to pause the release and ensure the fans were delivered a fitting product, performance and bugs wise. Saying the above statement after the horse has bolted happens all too often. It isn't acceptable to release a product in this state to fans if you really value them - you either have process or value problems. Either way it isn't a good look and it is sad the fans have to suffer for the companies failure.

Rather than blaming fans, in my professional opinion I would say the best approach would be to apologise for the failures and build back trust going forward.

 

[henriquefm]

I’ll make an (probably ill-advised) attempt to add some positivity to the discussion, but without sugar coating how I feel about the game. I’ll write in bullet points, because it’s easier.
- CS1 is the game I played the most hours (600+) in my Steam library (probably of all games too). Loved it.
- I am a little disappointed at CS2. Without a doubt, a lot less disappointed that a lot of fellow players here. To be clear: I don’t wanna belittle anyone’s opinion about the game. It is completely understandable to be more disappointed than I am. Also, it is completely understandable to have liked and be satisfied with the game.
- I am disappointed not because the game is bad - it isn’t. It is good. I enjoyed most of the hours I played it.
- I truly believe the game has the potential to meet the high expectations I have. I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with its core. Are there some aggravating bugs? Yes, no denying it (cargo, garbage, train station subway upgrade, to name a few). Thankfully, none of them are game breaking to me (there are game breaking bugs to others), but they are annoying. I do consider the lack of a route query tool a bug. I know about the whole real-time path-finding thing. Still, I would prefer to have an estimated route than no route. Like a “considering the current conditions of traffic, this is the path this cim/car/truck would take”. There are more issues (lack of content, lack of some more traffic management tools, etc), but they all have already been suggested and discussed, so I won't repeat them.
- I don’t think the simulation is broken or fake. It is just too forgiving, so it is hard not to get a “decisions don’t matter, mistakes don’t matter” feeling. Money is meaningless, because milestones rewards and subsidies are too big. There’s some exaggeration and misunderstanding in the “simulation is fake/broken” thing, but the game’s stats UI and info panels have a lot of blame here.
- I appreciate co_martsu's and co_avanya's willingness to interact with us here. I believe their (and everyone’s at CO) desire to make the best game they can is sincere. People want to be proud of their work (most people, at least). I am a software developer too, and I don’t want to simply make some program and cash my check. I want to see my client say “hey, this solved my problem! This will make my work a lot better.” I bet CO’s team is the same, that they want to see us having fun with the game they spent years making. Of course, I don’t know them personally, so this could be naive wishful thinking. Mistakes were made? Yes. Do I think this game could have used a few more months of development? Yes. Is some of the wording of their responses here not cool? Yes, like “If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you”. They apologized for it, and I think it was sincere. I appreciate it and it grants them points in my book.
- Mod support delay sucks.

 

[aaffonso]

As someone playing CO games since the awesome Cities in Motion, I do think the CO people understand what this niche wants and I still believe in their vision. However this launch has been a disaster, and it's no coincidence that it has happening with Paradox games since they went public. Or the company pleases the stock holders or pleases the players (customers), and based on what we see with other companies that went public it seems impossible to please both.

And a reminder, rate the game on Steam. That's their metric, complaining here or on Reddit doesn't mean much to corporate bad decision makers. And for those who don't know, you can change your review later in case the game turn out being good.

 

[goodcigar]

For those missing the point here, the simulation in Skylines 2 is fundamentally broken (or appears to be) to the point where it's hard to discern what's actually working as intended. It seems like between Creative Assembly, Bethesda and Colossal Order, game companies are fighting to see who can come up with the worst response to the complaints and concerns of their customers. I don't want to see CO/CS2 fail so I think they should be more careful with their words.

 

[Lorathor6]

I am incredibly sad about the state CS2 was shipped and is currently in. Cities Skylines 1 is my top played game on steam, being in my all time favorites, and believe me I have already seen and worked on an absurd amount of games, I would've not believed anyone saying that CS2 will not live up to it. But what has been delivered and shown is en par with the release of Sim City 2013 which I also very much looked forward to. It is just an empty shell, trying to deliver something that it simply can not. So sad, rushed and shallow, hiding information from me and working around a design flawed gameplay loop that lies to me on every corner. In all honesty, CS1 did a much better job being something fun to play, not only artistically "painting" my city but also truly playing it. It always felt like the things I did had an impact. Anyway, I don't need to rephrase what countless others have already been pointing out, I just simply wanted to express my deep disappointment in hope that it may be another drop in this bucket that hopefully turn it into something better one day. But again, we all know what happened to SimCity, despite the effort of the community to give feedback and bring the game to a better state. CS2 will unfortunately stay off my shelf for a very long time.

 

[benzoll]

Mariina, @co_martsu thanks for your apologies, your explanations, and for being here giving the face. I do not remember any head of a videogame company giving the face day after day, and less after a launch with so many problems.

I think must wait for all important bugs are resolved (economy monthly balance always earns money, export, mail, primary school and their demand, concrete behaviors of traffic, etc.) to see the game in depth and your simulation.
Right now, all is contaminated by bugs.
I don't know, but maybe when you patch economy monthly balance, let's discover that it is not so easy to stay in green numbers ...

 

[co_martsu]

In my attempt to manage expectations I failed miserably and I apologize for any hurt feelings.

Cities: Skylines II is currently what it is, it has been released and we can't change how the launch went. This is a fact we must live with and it's sad that expectations were not met. Now I can only assure you that we will keep working on the game (and release patches, of course!).

The marketing campaign is something we went into with honesty. We believe what we said about the game and were excited about what we've achieved. Now we must read the feedback and understand where the game fails and try to fix it. The game won't change into something it's not but we can make sure that our vision and intent comes across clearly for everyone playing. Whether it be fixing bugs hindering the experience or improving how the game gives feedback and explains things to the player.

I hope you'll accept my apology and extend your patience just a bit more to give Cities: Skylines II a chance.

Sincerely,
Mariina

 

[timfrombriz]

In my attempt to manage expectations I failed miserably and I apologize for any hurt feelings.

Cities: Skylines II is currently what it is, it has been released and we can't change how the launch went. This is a fact we must live with and it's sad that expectations were not met. Now I can only assure you that we will keep working on the game (and release patches, of course!).

The marketing campaign is something we went into with honesty. We believe what we said about the game and were excited about what we've achieved. Now we must read the feedback and understand where the game fails and try to fix it. The game won't change into something it's not but we can make sure that our vision and intent comes across clearly for everyone playing. Whether it be fixing bugs hindering the experience or improving how the game gives feedback and explains things to the player.

I hope you'll accept my apology and extend your patience just a bit more to give Cities: Skylines II a chance.

Sincerely,
Mariina

When are we looking at the next patch being ready? An estimate would probably reignite some excitement for those not happy with the game. Even pushing a bug patch if the LOD fixes are still being finalised to get it released sooner I think would do a world of good

 

[cestes]

In my attempt to manage expectations I failed miserably and I apologize for any hurt feelings.

Cities: Skylines II is currently what it is, it has been released and we can't change how the launch went. This is a fact we must live with and it's sad that expectations were not met. Now I can only assure you that we will keep working on the game (and release patches, of course!).

The marketing campaign is something we went into with honesty. We believe what we said about the game and were excited about what we've achieved. Now we must read the feedback and understand where the game fails and try to fix it. The game won't change into something it's not but we can make sure that our vision and intent comes across clearly for everyone playing. Whether it be fixing bugs hindering the experience or improving how the game gives feedback and explains things to the player.

I hope you'll accept my apology and extend your patience just a bit more to give Cities: Skylines II a chance.

Sincerely,
Mariina

I'm a creative too and understand how difficult it can be when something we're so passionate about gets received poorly. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's not, but as you say it's subjective and we creators can't control the reception. I am sympathetic to how you and the team are feeling, while also being surprised, disappointed, and frankly a little displeased at the state of the game at release. €90 is a lot to spend on something that subjectively to me seems utterly broken and doesn't seem like five years worth of work (if I'm remembering the development timeline correctly).

It's already been mentioned, but I'd also like to encourage you to start next week's WoW with an unqualified apology, a brief post-mortem of why the game was released for the PC rather than being delayed, and a list of fixes actively being worked on. Real transparency is going to be required to mend some of the fractured trust. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe people can be forgiving (even on the internet). It's up to you to give them that opportunity. I'd encourage you to do so in the next WoW so it's more visible.

My aforementioned surprise, disappointment, and displeasure is solely because I want the Cities: Skylines franchise and CO to succeed. You're right, the game is out now and there's no turning back the clock. There's still time to shift course and turn this whole episode into an example of how a game developer should handle these types of situations, rather than what many gamers perceive as business as usual in the industry.

 

[Pruciak]

If you dislike the simulation, this game just might not be for you.

Now that I am enlightened that the game is not for me (although I had the impression it was after watching the dev diaries) please refund me my money and we can part our ways.

 

[co_martsu]

When are we looking at the next patch being ready? An estimate would probably reignite some excitement for those not happy with the game. Even pushing a bug patch if the LOD fixes are still being finalised to get it released sooner I think would do a world of good

While the performance is still being worked on (and this will continue for as long as it's needed to get the results we're after) we have a bugfixing patch coming your way today.

I'm a creative too and understand how difficult it can be when something we're so passionate about gets received poorly. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it's not, but as you say it's subjective and we creators can't control the reception. I am sympathetic to how you and the team are feeling, while also being surprised, disappointed, and frankly a little displeased at the state of the game at release. €90 is a lot to spend on something that subjectively to me seems utterly broken and doesn't seem like five years worth of work (if I'm remembering the development timeline correctly).

It's already been mentioned, but I'd also like to encourage you to start next week's WoW with an unqualified apology, a brief post-mortem of why the game was released for the PC rather than being delayed, and a list of fixes actively being worked on. Real transparency is going to be required to mend some of the fractured trust. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe people can be forgiving (even on the internet). It's up to you to give them that opportunity. I'd encourage you to do so in the next WoW so it's more visible.

My aforementioned surprise, disappointment, and displeasure is solely because I want the Cities: Skylines franchise and CO to succeed. You're right, the game is out now and there's no turning back the clock. There's still time to shift course and turn this whole episode into an example of how a game developer should handle these types of situations, rather than what many gamers perceive as business as usual in the industry.

Thank you for your message. We're working with the marketing team to address this and looking to do it in a format that conveys better what I want to say. I believe we've now gotten enough evidence the written word might not be my strongest skill, but what are we humans if not lifelong learners!

Now that I am enlightened that the game is not for me (although I had the impression it was after watching the dev diaries) please refund me my money and we can part our ways.

I'm sorry to hear this. Please contact the place of purchase for the refund. If you are playing Cities: Skylines I hope the game still brings you joy even if the sequel didn't.

 

[Pruciak]

I'm sorry to hear this. Please contact the place of purchase for the refund. If you are playing Cities: Skylines I hope the game still brings you joy even if the sequel didn't.

Unfortunately I'm over 2 hour Steam's refund window. You are a really brave person to face the community and all the hate like you do, I respect that, no puns intended. Guess I'm stuck with the game, and yes Cities: Skylines I brought me much joy, thats why I'm so disappointed in this sequel. Guess we all have to wait for patches/reworks of game mechanics. Hope you will adress export and mail bugs in announced december patch.

 

[co_martsu]

Unfortunately I'm over 2 hour Steam's refund window. You are a really brave person to face the community and all the hate like you do, I respect that, no puns intended. Guess I'm stuck with the game, and yes Cities: Skylines I brought me much joy, thats why I'm so disappointed in this sequel. Guess we all have to wait for patches/reworks of game mechanics. Hope you will adress export and mail bugs in announced december patch.

Thank you. Please check the upcoming patch and keep the feedback coming!
We're working through all known issues and doing our best to improve the game so that you can enjoy it like you did the first one.

 

[kiciaj]

Thank you. Please check the upcoming patch and keep the feedback coming!
We're working through all known issues and doing our best to improve the game so that you can enjoy it like you did the first one.

On the top of what precedent speakers mentioned - I need to admit that the task is overall very ambitious. However there should be also a solid foundation behind such a project. I cannot understand why - despite of the performance bugs that still i'm able to swallow somehow - why the economics and simulation have so many bugs that literally have taken all the joy from my playtime.

I will place this loudly - I've bought a PreOrder collection - like many of us did. We know this is a risky trend nowadays - and still we belived in this project and what we got is - well a bit dissapointing.
I'm just thinking that there should be something extra on the top of all planed DLC - exclusively planned for us - players - your constant supporters.

As mr Pruciak mentioned - I'm also not able to refund my game, and I simply don't want to I want to build my cities like i did in C1. I'm just very unsatisfied that I and many other "Mayors" need still to wait to play our awaited title with the mechanics that will not burn our attempts on it.

We're awaiting to see some roadmap with more rigid plans for the future developement.

 

[Otis Slayer]

Out of curiosity what specifically in the building part is lacking, is it the amount of content or the tools or the simulation and how it behaves? Of course the marketing line is rather grand and the game does not yet have the same quantity of content than CS1 has. You may have shared the points that you don't enjoy in the game already so no need to repeat yourself only to spoil my curiosity if you don't feel like it!

When it comes to the bugs reported we have the team looking into them and I think some of you may find the next patch fixing some of the things bugging you. Not all, but some.

If the game has so many problems, why didn't you release it in Early Access?

 

[G315t]

If the game has so many problems, why didn't you release it in Early Access?

Come on guys let this rest. The game is out now and no one has a time machine at their disposal to change it. If you ever worked in a company that does complex longtime project you know that there may be a variety of internal reasons or external pressure that forces those often suboptimal decisions. And the CEO will not answer this in great detail showing you corporate interna.

 

[ClemiMD]

@co_martsu
Those really were the right words. I very much welcome that and would like to express my respect. Very few people in positions of responsibility have the balls to own up to their mistakes.
I hope that this whining in the community will finally stop. I can't read any more of this constant nagging and complaining. The baby has fallen into the well and it can no longer be undone. Yes, the release was too early and the game had and still has many bugs. Yes, the economic simulation in the game is hard to understand and there is a lack of economic details that are visible and comprehensible to the player. And yes, it is far too easy to build a successful city and make millions. But we're still at the very beginning and instead of moaning about having spent so much money on an unfinished game, I'm looking forward to the further development process. A lot has already happened in the last few patches and there's yet much more to come. I'm looking forward to it!

 

[timfrombriz]

If the game has so many problems, why didn't you release it in Early Access?

There's no sinking this boat, Glenda

 

[Otis Slayer]

Come on guys let this rest. The game is out now and no one has a time machine at their disposal to change it. If you ever worked in a company that does complex longtime project you know that there may be a variety of internal reasons or external pressure that forces those often suboptimal decisions. And the CEO will not answer this in great detail showing you corporate interna.

I don't want time to turn back.
I want answers.
I want to know why they released the game in this condition. Especially since they knew that the game was buggy and had problems with simulation.
I want to know what they were thinking when releasing such a game, nothing more. And I don't want to hear that they were guided by the good of the players.